Tasteful Understated Nerdrage/MrBtongue Thread

[catfood]

Check out this guy's newest video. He says POE is too balanced.

 

[Havoc]

 

[Zero Credibility]

Not a bad video. Anyway, time for my favorite acitivity on the 'dex - ranting about stuff. This time about the W2 choice - I thought it was done in a very hamfisted and silly way:

Spoiler

First of all, there is plenty of time for a team from Citadel to reach either locations - you know that because you can do it. Second, there are a ton of very high level rangers there just standing around doing fuck all. Finally, both of these locations are critical in a wasteland setting - food production and water source. So why the fuck is a team so green they are not even allowed in the base the only one sent to deal with both problems? Does Vargas hate these places so much? Or is he trying to get PCs killed or fail to teach them some kind of a lesson - "See kids, wasteland is a harsh place where you can't save everyone and don't get to be hero, even if I have to make sure of it myself, dammit!"

What they should have done (if they insisted on such a binary choice) is to have the PC team pick one location, and Vargas sends another team to the other. Only the other team fails. There, it's still the same choice, only this time somewhat believable. Or make time actually matter instead of artificially tying the fall of one place to solving the problem in another. But I guess I then wouldn't have to listen to those oh-so grimdark send-help messages from NPCs I have never met and don't care about from the other place every 30 seconds.

 

[PeachPlumage]

I thought that maybe the "choice" would have been fixed in the director's cut maybe even being able to split up your rangers to save both if you so wanted but alas.

 

[Lhynn]

Not a bad video. Anyway, time for my favorite acitivity on the 'dex - ranting about stuff. This time about the W2 choice - I thought it was done in a very hamfisted and silly way:

Spoiler

First of all, there is plenty of time for a team from Citadel to reach either locations - you know that because you can do it. Second, there are a ton of very high level rangers there just standing around doing fuck all. Finally, both of these locations are critical in a wasteland setting - food production and water source. So why the fuck is a team so green they are not even allowed in the base the only one sent to deal with both problems? Does Vargas hate these places so much? Or is he trying to get PCs killed or fail to teach them some kind of a lesson - "See kids, wasteland is a harsh place where you can't save everyone and don't get to be hero, even if I have to make sure of it myself, dammit!"

What they should have done (if they insisted on such a binary choice) is to have the PC team pick one location, and Vargas sends another team to the other. Only the other team fails. There, it's still the same choice, only this time somewhat believable. Or make time actually matter instead of artificially tying the fall of one place to solving the problem in another. But I guess I then wouldn't have to listen to those oh-so grimdark send-help messages from NPCs I have never met and don't care about from the other place every 30 seconds.

This is all covered in the DC. A) You are literally the only team capable of getting there in time, every other team is far away in another mission, which is why you are even given the mission to go to the radio in the first place and B) its speculaetd that both these things are happening at the same time as a part of a staged plot. Im not even in the mid point so i dont know how much the second thing is true, but well see.

Also its not exactly spoilers, being the first freaking mission and all.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Eh, people were using spoilers before me so I just continued.

But no, sorry, that explanation doesn’t work for me. A because there are a lot of rangers in the citadel that could wipe the floor with the opposition without breaking a sweat just guarding Vargas or a random door. Hell, there's another newbie team just waiting outside. And B because there is in fact enough time to get a team from the Citadel (on foot!) and cover at least one (if not both) places. And I'm supposed to believe that despite this Vargas would send just one team that is greener than Godzilla’s scrotum to secure both important food and water sources? Imo it was just a poorly thought out situation hammered in because they wanted a serious choice.

 

[Lhynn]

You get the warning when you are literally 10 squares away from AG. The rookies waiting outside are not even a team, and the people in the citadel are barely enough to keep it running, send more people away and the citadel could literally fall to any force outthere without effort. Vargas expresses suspicion for this several times. Two emergencies at the exact same time and only one team to answer for it?
Remember that hes been leading the rangers in a very cautious way for the past 15 or so years, leaving the citadel open would be against his character in the first place. More so than letting strangers die.

With that in mind it did feel forced, but im willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt instead of trying to attack it with my headcannon like you are.

 

[HotSnack]

Spoiler

Considering that the attacks were orchestrated by Matheus to draw the rangers out, Vargas holding down the fort with what veterans he had was the best decision he could have made. If the remaining rangers had left the citadel to assist the other communities, Matheus could just waltz in and activate the Cochise AI.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well it's not really headcannon that there are a lot of people in the ranger citadel that could have handled those emergencies easily as the game shows you this - the team outside is actually higher level then the PC team is at the start of the game, even if they are one member short; there's a 10+ level ranger painting walls or whatever the hell he is doing right next to them; inside there a multiple 10+ level rangers just walking about or standing near a door. Vargas has two 20+ level rangers with heavy weapons just standing next to him in his office. I really doubt that a couple of extras would have made that much of a difference if the Citadel was attacked, and I don't buy that Vargas didn't send anyone because he was afraid of an attack by an enemy he didn't know existed at this point. You are also afterwards beaten over the head again and again with how important both places were to the rangers. And there is enough time in the game for PC team to walk from the citadel to either location after receiving the messages, easily (I checked).

I know, I know, some level of segregation of gameplay and story is inevitable. And I'm not objecting to having a tough choice, just that if you have one it should feel... well, more natural and less like it was put in just to have "choices and consequences!" on the box. This one felt more like the latter. Like I said, timing the thing so that rangers can only reach one of them in time, with the other team arriving too late, would have helped greatly. Instead we get Vargas explaining to his dying friend how he really wishes he could send help, but there's just no one available... while next to him are two characters that could have soloed that mission easily.

 

[Lhynn]

Well it's not really headcannon that there are a lot of people in the ranger citadel that could have handled those emergencies easily as the game shows you this - the team outside is actually higher level then the PC team is at the start of the game, even if they are one member short; there's a 10+ level ranger painting walls or whatever the hell he is doing right next to them; inside there a multiple 10+ level rangers just walking about or standing near a door. Vargas has two 20+ level rangers with heavy weapons just standing next to him in his office. I really doubt that a couple of extras would have made that much of a difference if the Citadel was attacked, and I don't buy that Vargas didn't send anyone because he was afraid of an attack by an enemy he didn't know existed at this point. You are also afterwards beaten over the head again and again with how important both places were to the rangers. And there is enough time in the game for PC team to walk from the citadel to either location after receiving the messages, easily (I checked).

I know, I know, some level of segregation of gameplay and story is inevitable. And I'm not objecting to having a tough choice, just that if you have one it should feel... well, more natural and less like it was put in just to have "choices and consequences!" on the box. This one felt more like the latter. Like I said, timing the thing so that rangers can only reach one of them in time, with the other team arriving too late, would have helped greatly. Instead we get Vargas explaining to his dying friend how he really wishes he could send help, but there's just no one available... while next to him are two characters that could have soloed that mission easily.

Spoiler

Turns out vargas was right and they would have probably lost the citadel if they sent more than team echo.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Spoiler

What, had those three newbies and the guy painting the walls gone to help Citadel would have been attacked and without their crucial help Rangers would have lost? And Vargas was somehow sure enough that this would have happened that he was willing to risk his major food / water source on it? And listen to his friends die a horrible death while begging him for help? All while not even sure the enemy existed, let alone who it was? If that's the official story, then I have to say it's not a very good one.

edit:
Also, if that's the story, why are there no calls to recall other teams back to Citadel immediately? Wouldn't they be of more help than 3 low-level grunts with peashooters?

 

[Lhynn]

Spoiler

What, had those three newbies and the guy painting the walls gone to help Citadel would have been attacked and without their crucial help Rangers would have lost? And Vargas was somehow sure enough that this would have happened that he was willing to risk his major food / water source on it? And listen to his friends die a horrible death while begging him for help? All while not even sure the enemy existed, let alone who it was? If that's the official story, then I have to say it's not a very good one.

Spoiler

Yes, im sure he wanted to send 3 newbies to die for no good reason. also yes, he was unwilling to risk it, he had the rangers stay the fuck out of anything and everything for 15 years because he wanted to build resources and numbers, and you are proposing he threw all that because 2 emergencies happened at the exact same time?
At least team echo was an actual team, a team that was ready to take on missions.
All i can say is that if you were in charge instead of vargas, the rangers would have fallen at the start of the game.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Look mate, sorry if you thought I'm looking for a fight. I just find the whole scenario silly and forced and have explained why I think that.

 

[Lhynn]

Spoiler

I find it poorly executed, but its set up and pay off are there. vargas hasnt moved the rangers in a long time, hes making a come back to help the region, sending all his teams to missions all around. Echo team gets a low priority mission because a ranger got killed while doing it, because vargas literally cant send anybody else and because he suspects theres something up with those transmissions, which hes right to. Two problems arise at the exact same time and he gets even more paranoid, with good reason, thus he orders the low priority team to take care of them, he puts the burden of picking who gets to live on you, because he simply has no more personal to send without leaving the citadel defenseless.

You can fault the writing for not spelling out for you more why vargas let one of those places go to hell, but you cant say it wasnt without reason.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Eh, I think I already stated my position enough on that. And I don't find writing in W2 in that high regard in general.

 

[Mozg]

I remember being annoyed in the Witcher that some heavily signposted choices basically amounted to going either left or right at an uncontextualized fork in the road. C&C isn't an end unto itself, it's a means. The point is about gameplay (as in, I'm making a tactical decision to choose one or the other with a gameplay goal in mind) and/or about character (what decision would this character make?). If you want to put in an arbitrary choice I'd rather you just make it a setting in the options menu or something instead of setting it up as an in-character/in-game decision.

 

[Lord Romulus]

Nice to see him back again, thought he'd given up on making videos.

 

[Cholo]

I remember being annoyed in the Witcher that some heavily signposted choices basically amounted to going either left or right at an uncontextualized fork in the road. C&C isn't an end unto itself, it's a means. The point is about gameplay (as in, I'm making a tactical decision to choose one or the other with a gameplay goal in mind) and/or about character (what decision would this character make?). If you want to put in an arbitrary choice I'd rather you just make it a setting in the options menu or something instead of setting it up as an in-character/in-game decision.

I was shocked by how hamfisted this was at times in W1:

:D

 

[WhiteGuts]

As a sidenote, I hadn't read the books when I played TW1 and all the while, I was convinced Dandelion was a fucking vampire of some sort.

 

[moraes]

Hey guys, I found this interesting video and thought you may want to see it:

 

[WhiteGuts]

 

[Havoc]

 

[hello friend]

Is that the third or the fourth time these last two pages?

 

[Akratus]

 

[Havoc]