System Shock Infinite - SS2 reimagining inspired by BioShock Infinite

[DraQ]

You made me dig up my youtube history, but I had to share it (although I saw it originally in another thread here)



It's long but it's worth it. Like my dick.

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[Jaesun]

When someone finally does a mod where they make System Shock in the System Shock 2 engine, let me know.

 

[DraQ]

When someone finally does a mod where they make System Shock in the System Shock 2 engine, let me know.

I'd love:

• SS1 beam weapons
• SS1 hardware (seriously, WTF SS2?)
• SS1 weapon requirements ( )
• SS1 DR mechanics for enemies
• SS1 laser rapier
• SS1 EMP effect
• SS1 hand grenades and explosives
• SS1 HUD games
• SS1 use of lighting (seriously, it's a travesty that SS2 fails to even try to use it like its 5yr older predecessor has)
• SS2 creepiness and atmosphere
• SS2 scarcity
• SS2 weapon degradation
• SS2 PSI
• SSNone rez chambers

combined in one game.

 

[xdiesp]

It always surprises me how people who are smart enough to appreciate underrated quality games spend countless hours proving how they didn't understand why said game was great in the first place.

Dev here! I find that the basic kneejerk reaction I get, are mostly from people who didn't play the mod at all.

There was this kid who plays his dad's games to feel edgy, who played for 30 minutes until he got to this room whose only way outs are a door and a window, but the door cannot be open. He ragequitted and shouted me he had gotten stuck as the mod wanted to railroad him into a playstyle, but he was smarter than that.

He had not realized he could get out from the window. And that the situation was there to explain him to screw with game demands. It turns out he wasn't smarter than anybody. The moral is that end-of-the-line arguments offer security, but don't catch on the variety out there: this game was great in the first place, and after 15 years of it we tried something different with it. But if you won't take the window, it's understandable.

 

[Absalom]

• SS1 weapon requirements ( )
• SS1 DR mechanics for enemies
• SS1 laser rapier

combined in one game.

Do you mean SS1 weapons with SS2's skill requirements? Cause you could just pick up any weapon in SS1 and use it. Not sure what you mean.

SS2 also had DR, it just didn't tell you on the HUD about it. (Minor damage, Major damage, etc)

Other than the SS1 laser rapier doing a shit ton more damage there was no difference besides them. With how differently combat is handled in both games, the change makes sense.

Btw you forgot

• FUCK invisible mutants with a goddamn hammer jesus christ

 

[taxalot]

Dev here! I find that the basic kneejerk reaction I get, are mostly from people who didn't play the mod at all.

There was this kid who plays his dad's games to feel edgy, who played for 30 minutes until he got to this room whose only way outs are a door and a window, but the door cannot be open. He ragequitted and shouted me he had gotten stuck as the mod wanted to railroad him into a playstyle, but he was smarter than that.

He had not realized he could get out from the window. And that the situation was there to explain him to screw with game demands. It turns out he wasn't smarter than anybody. The moral is that end-of-the-line arguments offer security, but don't catch on the variety out there: this game was great in the first place, and after 15 years of it we tried something different with it. But if you won't take the window, it's understandable.

Such impressive game design skills. Most game designers of today would never have the audacity to have a corridor being followed by a room with only one exit.

THE EXIT IS THE WINDOW ! HOLY SHIT ! The audacity.

And to think the game appears to railroad you ! This is like some heavy Shyamalan meets Levine stuff!

 

[DraQ]

Do you mean SS1 weapons with SS2's skill requirements? Cause you could just pick up any weapon in SS1 and use it.

Yeah, and?
IRL even a moderately smart, completely untrained person should be able to pick up a pistol, shotgun, AR or even a GL and start shooting at something.
Perhaps with questionable accuracy, perhaps risking injuring themselves or damaging their weapon, but still a possibility worth considering if there is shit trying to murder you that's about to get in your face.

And in SS2 you're not an untrained person, you're supposed to be a grunt.

The only weapons I can see requiring some training to be operated at all are fusion cannon, non-melee exotics and possibly stasis field generator.

SS2 also had DR, it just didn't tell you on the HUD about it. (Minor damage, Major damage, etc)

SS2 had damage types and bullshit like AP rounds from normal gun being super effective against robots instead of just working (as opposed to normal bullets, which shouldn't work or should work poorly).

Nowhere in SS2 you had situations like firing a weapon at something and being unable to damage it, unless you used completely wrong damage type. In SS1 it was commonplace.

Other than the SS1 laser rapier doing a shit ton more damage there was no difference besides them.

It also required charge. Made it much more unique than just special flavour of wrench.
I did like swinging mechanics in SS2, though.

Btw you forgot

• FUCK invisible mutants with a goddamn hammer jesus christ

Invisible mutants + poor lighting conditions + flashlight, shield and rapier all nomming your scant energy reserves = problem?

 

[T. Reich]

IRL even a moderately smart, completely untrained person should be able to pick up a pistol, shotgun, AR or even a GL and start shooting at something.
Perhaps with questionable accuracy, perhaps risking injuring themselves or damaging their weapon, but still a possibility worth considering if there is shit trying to murder you that's about to get in your face.

In practice - actually not true!
Unless the weapon in question has been pre-loaded with ammo, with round already put in chamber, and with safety off, a completely untrained person with just basic pop-cultural knowledge would probably fail to fire this weapon.
Hell, I've seen people fail to reload a pump-action shotgun, or drop it after firing the first shot, because they have been completely unprepared for the recoil.

And in SS2 you're not an untrained person, you're supposed to be a grunt.

That is a sorta valid argument, but:
1. The game intro phase is you going through the training, where you yourself choose what skills you'd have. And if you went hardcore hacker/psi-op, why would you even expect to know how to use a gun? Your expertise lies somewhere else entirely. C&C right here, pure RPG goodness!
2. And then your brain gets played with when some cyber-implants get illegaly installed on you. That ought to bring out some brain damage, with partial loss of acquired skills a possibility. Yeah, I knowq it's a stretch.

 

[DraQ]

In practice - actually not true!
Unless the weapon in question has been pre-loaded with ammo, with round already put in chamber, and with safety off, a completely untrained person with just basic pop-cultural knowledge would probably fail to fire this weapon.

Given opportunity they will get it right in a few attempts.
And a lot of weapons in SS come preloaded, and, since they were dropped in combat or after suicide, with safety off.

That is a sorta valid argument, but:
1. The game intro phase is you going through the training, where you yourself choose what skills you'd have. And if you went hardcore hacker/psi-op, why would you even expect to know how to use a gun? Your expertise lies somewhere else entirely.

Why would I expect someone interested in joining the army to *not* know how to use a gun? Especially in kwanzanian culture.
The training is a can of worms on its own too - you can learn and use PSI power for recoil dampening without actually knowing how to shoot anything, you can, as is explicitly stated, train with ARs and still not know how to use one.

C&C right here, pure RPG goodness!

Fuck RPG goodness. It's no longer good if it makes no fucking sense.

2. And then your brain gets played with when some cyber-implants get illegaly installed on you. That ought to bring out some brain damage, with partial loss of acquired skills a possibility. Yeah, I knowq it's a stretch.

It's a big stretch given that they are supposed to be helpful.
Like I said, otherwise it becomes an inverted Quake 2 farce - instead of blowing up supposedly deadly but in reality crippled and retarded cyborgs left and right as an ordinary meatbag, you become a supposedly deadly, but in reality crippled and retarded cyborg blowing wrenching shit left and right.

 

[Infinitron]

Subtle.

 

[Absalom]

Was just figuring out what exactly you meant mang. The whole thing about the esword needing power is a moot point as I barely even noticed it happening.

 

[DraQ]

Was just figuring out what exactly you meant mang. The whole thing about the esword needing power is a moot point as I barely even noticed it happening.

Your lack of perception is not game's fault.

In any case:

• It makes sense that a powered weapon should consume power.
• The energy consumption rate could be set to whatever works the best.
• It's always better to have different weapons work differently rather than the same, while SS2 rapier is essentially a flavoured wrench*
• Making weapon resource dependent allows it to remain balanced even as it's made significantly more powerful than resource-less alternative
• Resource dependency also works wonders when it comes to pushing the player out of their comfort zone (I say it as someone who never really used SS2 PA because it nommed charge), in case of laser rapier it could mean that your melee weapon could run out of juice and force you to fall back to weapons that use ammo and degrade, inverting the ranged/melee use pattern somewhat. That's massive difference gameplay-wise.

*

Somewhat superior on paper, but only awesome against stuff you don't want to melee because it's explosive, poor against some stuff you might want to melee, and requiring insane module investments. All in all a questionable investment, while it should feel like something you've earned after sinking all those modules in NRG (and AGI) - of course, you shouldn't be forced to sink any modules into anything just to be able to swing shit around, but I digress.

 

[Absalom]

My 'lack of perception?' More like my refusal to use (shit) melee weapons in a game where everything had a ranged attack. "Resource dependency" my ass, I never had any problems with power in SS because recharging stations were EVERYWHERE.

Pretty funny you're spewing autism over the laser rapier being a 'different flavor wrench' when the SS1 rapier was a different flavor lead pipe.

Not even gonna touch the whole 'makes sense that a powered weapon consumes power' but 'doesn't make sense that you'd need skill modules to not cut yourself open with a laser sword'

 

[CyberP]

Fuck RPG goodness.

Stop. Immersion/Simulation is not the be-all-end-all. Important, yes, but if LGS/I prioritized it over everything else it wouldn't be the classic it is today.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Was just figuring out what exactly you meant mang. The whole thing about the esword needing power is a moot point as I barely even noticed it happening.

Your lack of perception is not game's fault.

In any case:

• It makes sense that a powered weapon should consume power.
• The energy consumption rate could be set to whatever works the best.
• It's always better to have different weapons work differently rather than the same, while SS2 rapier is essentially a flavoured wrench*
• Making weapon resource dependent allows it to remain balanced even as it's made significantly more powerful than resource-less alternative
• Resource dependency also works wonders when it comes to pushing the player out of their comfort zone (I say it as someone who never really used SS2 PA because it nommed charge), in case of laser rapier it could mean that your melee weapon could run out of juice and force you to fall back to weapons that use ammo and degrade, inverting the ranged/melee use pattern somewhat. That's massive difference gameplay-wise.

*

Somewhat superior on paper, but only awesome against stuff you don't want to melee because it's explosive, poor against some stuff you might want to melee, and requiring insane module investments. All in all a questionable investment, while it should feel like something you've earned after sinking all those modules in NRG (and AGI) - of course, you shouldn't be forced to sink any modules into anything just to be able to swing shit around, but I digress.

I always thought the laser rapier was well balanced. Yes, the wrench is effective until you get halfway through the game, and then effective for the rest of the game (save obvious anti-melee enemies) if you invest in brawn implants, the right psi-op skills and armour (as it should be - I'm assuming that we're not talking about people with hardcore FPS skills in a FP-crpg hybrid here). The laser rapier starts out much like the wrench, but has a far longer usefulness, and requires less investment outside of energy to be useful all the way through the game. It is significantly more powerful, and the best option for someone who wants to use melee near-exclusively (far less powerful than the shard, but for a player of average twitch skill, an exotic weapons build requires you to build part-way up another weapon skill and then switch to exotic at the right time - great on a second playthrough, but tough to time correctly the first time around)..

It also fits a different niche within its weapon tree. The wrench is a decent all-rounder, in a skill that specialises in 'decent all-rounders'. The laser rapier is a powerful all-rounder in a skill that is extremely strong against some enemy types, leaves you vulnerable against others, and puts you at a much greater risk of running out of 'ammo' at inopportune moments (less risk of completely running out of ammo, but much greater risk of being caught with your pants down and no recharge station in sight). The rapier is your sole fallback when that happens.

 

[DraQ]

I always thought the laser rapier was well balanced. Yes, the wrench is effective until you get halfway through the game, and then effective for the rest of the game (save obvious anti-melee enemies) if you invest in brawn implants, the right psi-op skills and armour (as it should be - I'm assuming that we're not talking about people with hardcore FPS skills in a FP-crpg hybrid here). The laser rapier starts out much like the wrench, but has a far longer usefulness, and requires less investment outside of energy to be useful all the way through the game. It is significantly more powerful, and the best option for someone who wants to use melee near-exclusively (far less powerful than the shard, but for a player of average twitch skill, an exotic weapons build requires you to build part-way up another weapon skill and then switch to exotic at the right time - great on a second playthrough, but tough to time correctly the first time around)..

It also fits a different niche within its weapon tree. The wrench is a decent all-rounder, in a skill that specialises in 'decent all-rounders'. The laser rapier is a powerful all-rounder in a skill that is extremely strong against some enemy types, leaves you vulnerable against others, and puts you at a much greater risk of running out of 'ammo' at inopportune moments (less risk of completely running out of ammo, but much greater risk of being caught with your pants down and no recharge station in sight). The rapier is your sole fallback when that happens.

Actually, laser rapier starts completely unlike wrench - it starts with 4 expensive points dumped into energy weapons, while wrench is free and can complement any skillset (so no, the rapier is never your sole fallback).
Other than that, the niche in weapon tree is not important, because you are not forced to specialize - yes, you forgo the %dmg bonus but higher level upgrades are often prohibitively expensive, while branching out isn't (and if you need that extra damage that badly, you can always branch into heavy and blow anything that refuses to yield to your primary weapon with GL).
What's important is the niche in game and rapier is very similar to wrench in that regard - the main differences are that rapier is more effective against enemies you don't want to hit in melee, but less effective against some that get in your face on their own. It does have better reach which is quite an advantage, but then the shard has even better reach, better damage and same damage type as wrench meaning it forgoes effectiveness against shit you don't want to melee but can massacre those damn spiders if needed. And unless you want to forgo, or mostly forgo research, the shard shouldn't be much of an investment to you, OTOH rapier is only worth consideration if you really want that EMP rifle, but why would you if for the same CM investment you can get an AR that rapes both robots AND everything else plus shotgun running on trash ammo while also boosting your wrench prowess?

The weapons in SS2 are just badly implemented - hard reqs are mostly idiotic, individual trees are awfully imbalanced, damage types are ill thought out and there are cloned weapons abound.

 

[T. Reich]

Meh, I always went to 4 energy pretty much straight away, because it boosts the damage of laser pistol real nice, and Electron Cascade psi tech coupled with decent maintenance would mean that I'd never need to rely on any other type of weapons/ammunition until I start to meet the higher forms of the annelids. It's very relaxing.

Rapier in this case served as a decent melee weapon, when I felt like having a swing or two, because it's more fun than 'ole wrench.

Later on the energy weapons are pretty useless, but by then I'd have standard weapons at 6 and having amassed a large bullet cache I would be able to afford a generous use of assault rifle, up to and including wasting SHODAN.

 

[Jick Magger]

Yeah, I rarely see any good reason to invest in anything beyond standard weapons, especially on higher difficulties. Doesn't help that a majority of the weapons in the other skill trees are either cripplingly overspecialized, useless, or really obtuse to use.