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System Shock 2 Mod Guide

DraQ

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What SS2 really needs is a pack revamping the weapons, and weapon skill mechanics.

Aside from one narrative fuck-up SS2 hast a bunch of problems:

-weapon skills make no fucking sense (durr... need cyber modules to fire fucking pistol).
-weapon damage types make no fucking sense (anelid "energy" resistance, yeah, how about no, especially given that the game even recognizes injuries inflicted by stuff like rapier as burns - laser pistol and rapier should deal incendiary damage).
-weapon balance stinking to high heavens (fusion cannon being meh, etc.) and selection being less than interesting.

First could be fixed by making all or most weapons (exceptions could be made for stuff like ranged exotics) usable without skill requirements. Skills should affect other factors, like maintenance req and breakage rate. The maintenance would still affect charging and the effectiveness of maint. tools, possibly weapons' degradation rate too.

Second would be straightforward to fix and would help with the last one.

With the last point I'd have a field day. I would probably do what follows:
-replace disruption grenades with fusion grenades, using partly retailored fusion cannon's description that would be rare, valuable and essentially canned nukes.
-fusion cannon becomes dual mode mag-pulse (yeah baby) cannon - with emp and generic energy firing modes (the latter allowing it some reduced utility against organics and mixed groups of enemeis), better RoF and less ludicrously slow projectiles, prisms become mag-pulse cartridges, mostly recycled EMP rifle commentary.
-EMP rifle would get replaced by railgun (same model), preferably using both charge and physical ammo simultaneously - AP (great against anything armored, multiple target penetration) and hypervelocity (more energy drain, worse against mechanical, but more damage and small explosion at point of impact) firing modes, slow rate of fire, large damage, practically instant hit, sniper weapon.
-stasis projector becomes stun projector - short range, wide cone of effect, stun against organics plus tiny amount of EMP (like SS1 stun gun), alt fire overcharge - wide cone short range arc-like energy attack (something like that lightning weapon from TN:SFC but not very powerful), no ammo, charge powered.
-shotgun - tighter pellet spread and more practicality affecting tweaks
-AR - primary fire mode becomes 3x burst instead of single (like pistol's alternate, but all rounds are pretty accurate), nerf a bit, better keep that pistol if you want to conserve ammo.
-GL - no damage bonuses from upgrades, period. The weapon doesn't deal damage, the 'nades do.
-rapier - massive damage boost, but requiring charge to work.
-crystal shard - passive damage bonus based on current psi points, damage type ineffective against mecha (it's a fragile crystalline blade), maybe breakable.
 
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voodoo47

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What SS2 is a pack revamping the weapons, and weapon skill mechanics.
how about NO. most of the stuff you've posted would destroy the game's RPG mechanics completely. also, it's a game, it's not supposed make sense, it's supposed to play well.

SCP beefs up fusion cannon and nerfs the pistol and AR (also makes the stasis field generator less useless by allowing you to stasis lock turrets, cameras and reavers), but that is as far as we'll go.
 

Infinitron

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how about NO. most of the stuff you've posted would destroy the game's RPG mechanics completely.

Can you explain why in further detail? I sense great DraQ wall of text potential.
 

Lyric Suite

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if you mean Mercurius, he still is around so maybe he will, but there is also a good chance of someone else picking this up and finishing the rest of the models.

Well, all of the other weapon mods are shit so i really wanted him to finish this one, but if he hasn't done it by now i guess he never will.
 

voodoo47

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Can you explain why in further detail? I sense great DraQ wall of text potential.
removing some weapon requirements completely: while looking very logical at first glance - as pretty much anyone can take a gun, point the correct end at someone and end his misery with no training whatsoever, this would just take the rpg elements out of the game for no good reason. rpgs are nonsensical in this particular area (no swords without sword skill, no metal armor without proper skill etc), that's just how things are. you can always cheat yourself out of the upgrade system if you hate to hunt for cyber modules (but then again, if you hate that, you are better off playing Black Mesa).

full weapon tunep: he is suggesting that half the weapons should be changed completely. first, this is difficult to pull off, you need people skilled in Shocked (and I mean real skill, not the ha-ha I can floor items and change wall textures thing I have going on), most probably someone good at making models and textures as well. and balancing everything out so it would incorporate smoothly into the game would be a nightmare. also, the demand for mods that completely change the gameplay is rather small - most people just want to play the great classic, with bugs fixed and maybe some hires candy at the top. that's where we are aiming. and one man screaming about wanting a BFG because he thinks the game sucks without one is certainly not going to change our mind.

BUT he can always go down the "you want things done right, gotta do 'em yourself" route, learn Shocked, and make ANY mod he wants. anyone serious about SS2 modding is welcome on systemshock.org, and will receive all the help we will be able to spare.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
removing some weapon requirements completely: while looking very logical at first glance - as pretty much anyone can take a gun, point the correct end at someone and end his misery with no training whatsoever, this would just take the rpg elements out of the game for no good reason. rpgs are nonsensical in this particular area (no swords without sword skill, no metal armor without proper skill etc), that's just how things are. you can always cheat yourself out of the upgrade system if you hate to hunt for cyber modules (but then again, if you hate that, you are better off playing Black Mesa).

Oh, come on. You're underestimating DraQ if you think that's what he meant. Plenty of RPGs with weapon skills still allow you to use any weapon you want without "having points" in them. It just means you're less good at using them.

But do I really need to explain this to you? Even if you've only got experience with LGS-type games, that still means you've played Deus Ex.
 

voodoo47

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Irrational decided to go with a skill system that makes weapons require a certain skill level to be used. it doesn't make any sense from the point of realism, but works perfectly fine as a game mechanics. the alternative would be to remove the requirements completely, and leave the skill level determine accuracy, damage, kickback, break rate etc (so for example, someone with standard skill 0 would be able to use the pistol, but would not hit anything unless at point blank range, and would deal very little damage, and that is almost identical to not being able to use the weapon at all). doable, and if done right, could work nicely, but again, a lot of work for very small benefit - as mentioned, there is little demand for mods that fix something that ain't really broke.
 

spekkio

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how about NO. most of the stuff you've posted would destroy the game's RPG mechanics completely.

Can you explain why in further detail? I sense great DraQ wall of text potential.
its-a-trap-what-happens-when-advertisers-dont-meet-twitters-spending-quotas.jpg


*Fake edit: Too late. :(

so for example, someone with standard skill 0 would be able to use the pistol, but would not hit anything unless at point blank range, and would deal very little damage, and that is almost identical to not being able to use the weapon at all). doable, and if done right, could work nicely, but again, a lot of work for very small benefit
Fully agree. Of course:

Draq would've said:
But it would've been MOAR REALISTIC / RPGish baaaawww!

Welcome to rpgcodex. :roll:
 
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Wasteland 2
RPGs are nonsensical, that's just how things are, otherwise it's not an rpg, go play cowaduty if you don't like RPGs, LoL.

Fuck you, you vile, conservative, gamist pig. This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm ranting about principles, not specifically about an issue at hand. I'm fine with SS as it is, but would prefer for games in the genre to handle it better in general.
 
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DraQ

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What SS2 is a pack revamping the weapons, and weapon skill mechanics.
how about NO. most of the stuff you've posted would destroy the game's RPG mechanics completely. also, it's a game, it's not supposed make sense, it's supposed to play well.
How about you GTFO and could you please die by impaling yourself on a rusty, broken sewage pipe, all while there is a stream of raw sewage gushing out of it?
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Careful Voodoo, this place is extremely unstable, or rather the majority of it's members are. On the plus side you get pretty tags though.

RPG systems: They were based upon Traveller's ruleset. Everything has a stat requirement. Making this not true for weapons would certainly fuck the systems as (Voodoo pointed out) even if you added other stat-based gimpage akin to Deus Ex's accuracy system. Whilst it certainly is counter-simulational it is great for C&C and all that other RPG goodness. Where it really is of significance for SS2 specifically is I believe the artificial limitation is greately beneficial to SS2's survival gameplay and sense of helplessness whilst still allowing deep gameplay. What other Survival horror pulls off offering a relatively large arsenal of weapons to choose from whilst still being scary?
And yeah, the systems design ain't broke, only real issue is balancing (Which SecMod took commendable efforts to resolve).
Of course, they could have been designed entirely differently, one prioritizing simulation to a greater degree, it's surprising they didn't considering the design of the rest of the game in whole rather, I guess Levine was just a big fan of Traveller. worked out nicely imo despite being somewhat of a stark contrast to the design of all other aspects of the game.
 

DraQ

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removing some weapon requirements completely: while looking very logical at first glance - as pretty much anyone can take a gun, point the correct end at someone and end his misery with no training whatsoever, this would just take the rpg elements out of the game for no good reason.
Fucking trained military professional not being able to fire a basic fucking pistol is a perfectly good reason for not just that but also eating kittens alive while chanting bieber's songs backwards.

rpgs are nonsensical in this particular area (no swords without sword skill, no metal armor without proper skill etc), that's just how things are.
Except other than D&D derpstravaganza and some derivatives anyone can swing a sword, wear armor or fire a basic firearm. With varying effectiveness and consequences of fumbling, of course.

most probably someone good at making models and textures as well.
Actually, my idea is to reuse original assets.
There is nothing about EMP rifle model that says EMP and not railgun (or SS1 style plasma gun), there is nothing about fusion cannon's weapons that doesn't look like heavy duty magpulse weapon and stasis generator is just a generic emitter dish with some machinery - it can conceivably fire anything that isn't solid projectiles.

and balancing everything out so it would incorporate smoothly into the game would be a nightmare.
It's already a wreck in that regard, so the mod wouldn't make it worse.
also, the demand for mods that completely change the gameplay is rather small - most people just want to play the great classic, with bugs fixed and maybe some hires candy at the top.
Yeah, most people are nostalgic retards craving for eyecandy. Got it.
 

voodoo47

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we can argue about crap all day, but when you boil it down, the only thing that really matters is whether you will be able to turn your vision into reality or not. I did. do the same, be more popular, and I'll say you were right and buy you a pie.
Careful Voodoo, this place is extremely unstable, or rather the majority of it's members are.
I have been working as tech support for 15+ years. I'm already immune to crazy.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Yeah, most people are nostalgic retards craving for eyecandy. Got it.

Despite the sarcasm, this statement is probably accurate. In my observations of various modding communities graphics mods almost always come out on top in terms of downloads/popularity. Hell, dumb gimmick mods are often more popular than well-designed gameplay-centric mods.
Looking at System Shock 2's mod selection specifically the most popular mods are indeed the graphics ones.
Personally I think that is bullshit as a huge gameplay fag, but there's no denying it's gameplay quality does have it's graphics fidelity beat in spades, even with graphics mods installed. Same is true for most revered classics really.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Also if new to a game many want to experience vanilla, though picking up graphics mods that stay true to the art style for this playthrough is not something to be looked down upon if it's an old game.
 

voodoo47

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ADaoB (bugfixed maps, tweaked game mechanics and other fixes, the predecessor of SCP) was popular, one of the top three mods on systemshock.org with 40K+ downloads. so basically, the masses want fixed stuff and pretty stuff. not all that surprising.
 

DraQ

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Irrational decided to go with a skill system that makes weapons require a certain skill level to be used. it doesn't make any sense from the point of realism, but works perfectly fine as a game mechanics. the alternative would be to remove the requirements completely, and leave the skill level determine accuracy, damage, kickback, break rate etc (so for example, someone with standard skill 0 would be able to use the pistol, but would not hit anything unless at point blank range, and would deal very little damage, and that is almost identical to not being able to use the weapon at all).
It's a very big almost in a survival horror - a type of game built around putting player in a situation dire enough to make every option valuable. It's also a genre that is built around immersion and gamist bullshit like not being able to use a pistol (nevermind AR which is the type of weapon routinely fired by child soldiers in african shitholes) as a professional grunt.

Primary draw of SS2 has always been the atmosphere so it succeeded in spite of bullshit implementation of RPG mechanics rather than because of it.
If anything, making weapons you aren't trained with a nevertheless valuable resource (if only because of its limited use - there aren't enough hi-end weapons in good condition lying around for player to casually mishandle and discard as needed) would perfectly complement SS2's built in ammo/weapon conservation gameplay.
Additionally, breaking skill impact down into as many and as subtle factors as possible is also a good idea, because it allows to preserve gameplay impact without resorting to drastically retarded measures (like weapons being unusable, dealing negligible damage or having grotesquely large spread).
 

voodoo47

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I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I'm just saying it's too much trouble for something that very few want/would enjoy. so unless you want to get into SS2 modding, the weapon requirements are here to stay (in the main SCP build, that is).
 

DraQ

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I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I'm just saying it's too much trouble for something that very few want/would enjoy. so unless you want to get into SS2 modding, the weapon requirements are here to stay (in the main SCP build, that is).
That's a slippery slope you're following.
SS2 itself is already something very few want/would enjoy (as opposed to Call of Duty %X: Modern Warfare %Y: Black Ops %Z).
 

Unkillable Cat

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SS2 has been out there for 15 years, of which source code access has been available for 2 of those years. If anyone intended to do a proper weapon rebalancing mod it would already be out there, instead of a clump of interesting ideas here and there.

Yes, I agree that the weapons in SS2 aren't balanced properly. No, I'm not that bothered by it, the game isn't that long.
 

DraQ

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SS2 has been out there for 15 years, of which source code access has been available for 2 of those years.
13yrs without in-depth access to game's working is a long time.

Yes, I agree that the weapons in SS2 aren't balanced properly. No, I'm not that bothered by it, the game isn't that long.
Balance is less important than some of weapons sucking, especially sucking in a game where you could have sunk massive amount of resources into unlocking them.
 
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CyberP

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Balance is less important than some of weapons sucking, especially sucking in a game where you could have sunk massive amount of resources into unlocking them.

Balance & "weapons sucking" are one & the same. :?
 

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