Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Ruhfuss]

Ah, the beginning of GSF. Always such a pleasure.

Krevish was the first to level up; which left the party broke, right after completing Nesme.

Time for some Hill Giant genocide.

...which worked pretty well. Guess that's the benefit of having 6 DEX 18 warrior classes able to use Composite Long Bows(*). Leveling warriors from 2 to 3 also increases THACO by 2, so each consecutive run became easier. The last run was supposed to pay for Krevish's next level (Cleric 3, so his Fighter 2 will be reactivated), which left him unconscious after beeing hit by a boulder, and all three Rangers able to level up AGAIN. *sigh*

Still can't believe that CRPGAddict sold the Ring of Prot. +2 "+2 Ring of Prot." to pay for training.

(*) EDIT: And I just realized that the Ranger bonus vs. Giants also works with bows. For some reason I was under the impression that the bonus only applies to melee attacks.

 

[octavius]

Genociding Hill Giants is just the way to break the game, and make a boringly easy game even more boringly easy...

 

[Ruhfuss]

The fun in playing an otherwise rather crappy game like GSF is in breaking it.

 

[Null Null]

Too late to the DQK thread part, but I'd like to make an argument for the single-class human mage; once you get close to 30th level you can just ignore magic resistance, making those big fights with lots of draconians really, really easy; just drop a DBF and they all die.

BTW, I dropped your Gateway <> Curse / Treasures <> Pools tip on the CRPG addict; he was quite grateful for a chance to beat Vaalgamon. It opens a lot of interesting options; a Gateway->Curse->Secret->Pools run isn't one I'd thought of, mostly because Pool is one of my favorites. The lack of Paladins and Rangers is a bitch though.

 

[octavius]

Hmm... I wonder how a Pool->Treasures transfer would work?
If I'm to replay the GB games, Gateway is the one game I would want to skip.

 

[Jaesun]

Are the save files actually compatible, when going from Treasures to Pools? I kind of question that.

 

[octavius]

Are the save files actually compatible, when going from Treasures to Pools? I kind of question that.

I don't think they are even fully compatible going from Pools to Curse...

 

[Joonas]

Here's a table comparing the save formats of some of the games:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/compare.txt

The numbers are decimal offsets of known variables in the save files.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Hmm... I wonder how a Pool->Treasures transfer would work?
If I'm to replay the GB games, Gateway is the one game I would want to skip.

Easy enough, but depends on how you want to go on. Note that this is for single character transfer, not savegame transfer. Games named in parentheses are meant as "transfer stations".

A) Pool -> (Curse) -> (Gateway) -> Treasure <--> Pools
B) Pool -> Curse -> Secret -> (Pools) -> Treasure <--> Pools

Option A needs one to skip Curse und Secret, while option B will result in an rather effortless Savage Frontier savagery.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Here's a table comparing the save formats of some of the games:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/compare.txt

The numbers are decimal offsets of known variables in the save files.

I was just wondering what the hell hit_points_rolled is meant to be. Is this used as a single value that will be subtracted from hit_points_maximum on each level drain event, and added to hit_points_maximum on each applicable restoration event?

Hmm, looks like an accumulation of rolled HP sans CON bonus. Curious how that field is used. If my assumption is correct, does that mean hit_points_rolled won't change after name level?(*) And damn, now I have another value to hex adjust when I'm too lazy to savescum for max HP.

There is seemingly no way for the games to know how many HP a character gained per level pre name level. So I can see how the repair function of the later games can mess with a character's max HP in favor of players that didn't bother to savescum for max HP. If that was the case, getting bitten by a friendly vamp next door might be good for your health in the long run...

(*) EDIT: After a peek at some properly leveled and maxed Paladin/Fighter/Ranger character files beyond name level, the simple answer is that it's not that simple.

 

[Null Null]

I did a Treasures-->Pools transfer a while back. The unique items (Golden Battle Axe etc.) get weird names, but the characters seem OK. There are even some bizarre changes, like the Farrberjik Boots apparently casting Mirror Image (of course they get names like HIJKLMNO, from the program trying to find strings with indexes over what was programmed).

It would actually be an interesting challenge to see what happens--the end-of-Treasures party would still be substantially less powerful than a starting Pools party (11th vs 13th level), and a starting Pools party gets +2 and +3 items.

 

[Ruhfuss]

[OT/rant]

So I needed a break from Gold Boxing and (after 3+ years of my last attempt) gave Dragon Age:Origins another try. Never could endure it past Lothering in the past. This time, I was able to finish the Circle of Magi/Fade part, some Denerim side quests and Honnleath. I'm pretty close to the point where [compulsion to go on] < [impulse to finally get rid of that piece of garbage]. Or maybe even past it.

The criticism of "too much combat" in DA:O doesn't apply from my point of view, because otherwise I had to hate every Gold Box title. So far, the combat in DA:O is the only thing that kept me interested in the game. Due to its RTwP nature, I consider DA:O to be some kind of ARPG, albeit a slow one, while the Gold Boxes are "TRPG"s (T = tactical).

So if DA:O had an option like System Shock 1 for example, letting me play it as Combat = 3, Puzzles = 0, Dating Sim = 0, Dialog Tree Navigation = 0, it might actually be fun, instead of gameplay interruptus. (Maybe should play Torchlight 2 or IWD instead.) I guess that's why for me the Fade was actually the most enjoyable part of the game so far. No companions, almost no role play inhibiting biowarian dialogue or gameplay interruptus read-a-booking.

The best lines of dialogue come from my aptly named human noble: "You may call me Douchebag, if you must."

I'm under the impression that many people stop playing DA:O roughly at the same point, around Lothering. That's when the truckload of RPG BioWare style hits, also the first time entering the campsite with all those dreadfull bed-wetters and she-goats.

Man, even trying to write about it drains me.

 

[Ruhfuss]

So DA:O, good riddance.

I was thinking of doing some comparision between Gold Boxes from way back and AAA-GOTY-DA:O "greatness", but I guess in this thread that would be preaching to the choir.

Only so much, I think that the first RPG with (N)PC romance in it that I know of - Treasures of the Savage Frontier - did it way better. (Deliberately ommiting the "compared to" part here.) According to the rule book, the potential love interest NPC judges the acceptability of his/her object of desire by its actions (behaviour in combat). Compare that to biowarian love talk shit with countless options that may stand in stark contrast to every other descision the player takes outside of the dating sim part.

Murderous psychopath romancing a would be nun just by drivelling some shit and gifting some crap? Sure. Morrigan disapproves.

 

[janior]

 

[Ruhfuss]

Back to playing GSF again. I think I encountered a bug in Loudwater. I was doing the side street battles and got the messages hinting at the forces guarding the bridge area were diminishing. The forces were already down to ~ a few when I wasn't done with the side street battles; I think there were two parties left. During one of those fights, one single manticore was able to flee. I wasn't under the impression this would matter. Big mistake?

Now there are no more side street battles left, therefore no more chances to reduce the numbers at the bridge. But the numbers at the bridge are back to "very powerfull, altough it's smaller than it was before". The encounter that follows has not a single Zhent, but a whole crapload of manticores with an even bigger shitload of ranged attacks. All I have is a single wand of ice storm. Remember, I'm playing an all-warrior-party (not counting Krevish, whose cleric spellcasting AI sucks Akabar Bel Akash style).

I am thinking of going back to Silverymoon to load up on potions (Speed/Healing/Invisibility), or simply duping the wand of ice storm to nuke those buggers.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Finished GSF, moved on to Curse.

Did the bugger fight the fast way, duping the Wand of Ice Storm, and discarding the dupes afterwards.

The final battle in GSF was relatively easy. Key thing was having enough Potions of Speed. I had two objectives:

1) completing equipment from shambling mounds where needed
2) killing Vaalgamon for his items

The last part was the tricky one, and the cause for several attempts, until I figured out when to use which potion type and had some luck with the dices. I was missing my Cleric from my very first playthrough, who got extremely lucky with the first Hold Person on Vaalgamon. No need to say that the AI controlled Krevish-the-Cleric/Fighter was of no use at all, wasting all his Prayers in the previous fights and Hold Persons on Non Persons.

I not even tried to win the last part of the final battle by killing everyone. The moment Vaalgamon went down during the final fight, the PC closest to the exit started running. Later, when comparing XP I was under the impression one PC went down due to less total XP, but it turned out that the fleeing PC gets no XP from the fled battle segment. ~15.000 XP lost --- 10% of the PCs total XP!

Vaalgamon's Ring of Prot. +2 seems to be bugged; it's detected as magical, but doesn't improve AC. I kept it anyways, perhaps it at least improves saves. Both the Longsword +5 and Shield +5 are fine, though.

GSF finishing XP: ~ 166.000

In Curse, the (four) named items from GSF (Sword of Stonecutting and the likes) got puzzled names, although not as weird as when going from TSF to Pools. I didn't bring them with me, but all the other nice stuff surely made up for having no real spellcasters (Rangers could be leveled up to 8 right at the beginning, so at least Detect Magic was available) and having to rely on Paladin innates for manual healing.

I'm currently done with Dracandros. Rangers are level 10, Paladins level 9 - finally Cure Light Wounds! Was able to beat the Black Dragons without losses.

So far, it's pretty fun. Don't know if (slightly...) over-levelled and over-outfitted warriors will be enough for what's coming next and beyond.

 

[Malignant Manor]

Rings of protection aren't supposed to add to armor class when you wear magical armor. It should still give the save bonus. In the engine, I'm not sure if the item with the higher plus, of magical armor or rings of protection, count for AC or just the magical armor. You could test it out by wearing +1 armor. Bracers of AC 2 are better if you have a ring with the same bonus as plate. I think movement speed in magic plate is 9 so bracers of AC 4 are also pretty good even for non-mages.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Rings of protection aren't supposed to add to armor class when you wear magical armor.

I know. The simplest way of testing is to wear the ring naked. I was comparing the "Ring of Prot. +2" (from Vaalgamon) to the "+2 Ring of Prot." (from the early game). And yes, they really messed up the item names in GSF. Vaalgamon (Or someone else in the final battle? Nah.) also drops Bracers AC 2, which offer the same AC bonus as Plate Mail +1, but stack with regular "ABC of Prot. +X".

 

[octavius]

Bracers + magical rings, helms, and codpieces rule in the Savage Frontier games, giving much better protection than armour and no movement penalty.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Here's a table comparing the save formats of some of the games:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/compare.txt

The numbers are decimal offsets of known variables in the save files.

I was just wondering what the hell hit_points_rolled is meant to be. Is this used as a single value that will be subtracted from hit_points_maximum on each level drain event, and added to hit_points_maximum on each applicable restoration event?

Hmm, looks like an accumulation of rolled HP sans CON bonus. Curious how that field is used. If my assumption is correct, does that mean hit_points_rolled won't change after name level?(*) And damn, now I have another value to hex adjust when I'm too lazy to savescum for max HP.

(*) EDIT: After a peek at some properly leveled and maxed Paladin/Fighter/Ranger character files beyond name level, the simple answer is that it's not that simple.

Answer to self. I tracked this during my progress in Curse. hit_points_rolled is indeed an accumulation of rolled HP sans CON bonus before name level. After name level, the fixed HP bonus per level is added to hit_points_rolled.

Further messing around with this out of curiosity in TSF, hit_points_rolled is indeed used to adjust hit_points_maximum when using REPAIR in temples. For example, if one hexedits hit_points_maximum to maximize HP at level up, but neglects to do so for hit_points_rolled, REPAIRing the character will reduce hit_points_maximum accordingly.

 

[ProphetSword]

Answer to self. I tracked this during my progress in Curse. hit_points_rolled is indeed an accumulation of rolled HP sans CON bonus before name level. After name level, the fixed HP bonus per level is added to hit_points_rolled.

Further messing around with this out of curiosity in TSF, hit_points_rolled is indeed used to adjust hit_points_maximum when using REPAIR in temples. For example, if one hexedits hit_points_maximum to maximize HP at level up, but neglects to do so for hit_points_rolled, REPAIRing the character will reduce hit_points_maximum accordingly.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason for that field is so that base hit points can be tracked in case a character's Constitution score changes (due to a magical item boosting it or due to being raised from the dead, which lowers it by one). That way, the game always knows what the base is, and can apply the CON bonus to it on the fly based upon the current attribute score.

 

[Ruhfuss]

hit_points_rolled is indeed an accumulation of rolled HP sans CON bonus before name level. After name level, the fixed HP bonus per level is added to hit_points_rolled.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason for that field is so that base hit points can be tracked in case a character's Constitution score changes (due to a magical item boosting it or due to being raised from the dead, which lowers it by one). That way, the game always knows what the base is, and can apply the CON bonus to it on the fly based upon the current attribute score.

Yes, but why save the randomized part (hit_points_rolled pre name level) together with the easily recalculable part (fixed HP gain post name level)?

hit_points_maximum could easily be the return value of a function that calculates on the fly. Both CON bonus pre name level (possible variable factor, taking ProphetSword's good example into account) and HP bonus past name level (static factor) are fixed products. So only HP rolled pre name level needs to be stored in a save. Calculating hit_points_maximum on the fly also had the benefit of beeing more accurate for multi class chars or chars with an uneven CON bonus. From this point of view, storing hit_points_maximum is a waste of space // unneeded redundancy/inaccuracy.

What the save file format lacks is a single stored field of each rolled HD pre name level, which would be needed to accurately calculate current maximum HP after level drain and restoration events.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Some more bugs in Curse:

- The Scroll of Prot. Dragon Breath effect is permanent
- Paladin Level 11 + Girdle of Giant Strength (STR 24) + Long Sword +5 = THAC0 255 in character sheet

If the THAC0 isn't just a display bug, then grinding to max level just bit me in the butt. Tough easily rectified by redistributing items.

EDIT: It's either just a display bug, or I had an amazing streak of rolling 20ies when testing.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Some more bugs in Curse:

- The Scroll of Prot. Dragon Breath effect is permanent
- Paladin Level 11 + Girdle of Giant Strength (STR 24) + Long Sword +5 = THAC0 255 in character sheet

If the THAC0 isn't just a display bug, then grinding to max level just bit me in the butt. Tough easily rectified by redistributing items.

EDIT: It's either just a display bug, or I had an amazing streak of rolling 20ies when testing.

IT's a display bug, I encountered it too

 

[Ruhfuss]

Curse finishing XP: ~ 1.100.000

Rangers will be able to level up to 12 in Secret right away.

The final battle against Big T was very easy. I had conserved Wands/Necklaces to continiously nuke the priests. Big T was a first round kill - hasted (potion) Ranger level 11 + Long Sword +5 + Ring of Invisibility. No Dust of Disappearance (used that versus the Beholder Corps).

This was the first time that I played and finished the original Curse of the Azure Bonds. Previously did some NWN1/2 modules, and last year the FRUA conversion(*). So I can claim that my first run through the original Curse of the Azure Bonds was with an all warrior party ...

...with imported items from GSF. What can I say? I'm old, not hardcore.

Occasionally, I had to cheese the AI. A straight line with more enemy clerics than I'm able to injure per combat round? Have a PC do a run-by Road-Runner-style to prevent casting for that round. Sue me.

All things considered, with knowledge of what to expect the all warrior party was very easy to play. If only there were a quick switch between melee an missile weapons. Reloads were usually only neccessary due to bad luck with enemy clerics, or spider poison.

Best place to grind: Drow caves. Unlimited repeats of very easy battle versus (all Drow) 4 Fighters, 1 Cleric, 1 Mage, for slightly below 3.000 XP each battle. Easy prey for an all warrior party.

Looking forward to Secret, where I plan to start with dual classing. Currently thinking of:

• Paladin (20) -> Cleric (Pools; maxed paladin spell casing)
• Ranger (17) -> Thief (Pools; maxed ranger spell casting)
• Paladin (13) -> Mage (Secret; earliest level with 2/1 attacks)
• Ranger (15) -> Mage (Secret; earliest level with 2/1 attacks; unable to reach level 16 due to level cap)
• Paladin (13) -> Mage (Secret; earliest level with 2/1 attacks)
• Ranger (15) -> Mage (Secret; earliest level with 2/1 attacks; unable to reach level 16 due to level cap)

(*) Did anybody beat the Mulmaster Beholder Corps in the FRUA conversion? I don't think it is possible without an obscene amount of patience and luck. Or at all. The Dust of Disappearance seems to be non-functional, and the AI isn't nearly half as dumb as in the original engine.