Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by Turisas, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. Make America Great Again cvvgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Give me at least two better games of this genre released in the last ten years.
     
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  2. Norfleetgender: ⚧ Moderator

    Norfleet
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    AC already had a solution to Doomstacks, and catapults weren't it, because artillery only did a small amount of damage and it would take massed artillery to even reduce everything in it to...half health.

    The REAL answer is
     
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  3. BlackAdderBGgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    SoD are myth repeated by people that don't play Civ IV.
     
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  4. Destroidgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Destroid
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    It certainly HAS doomstacks. Whether they are a problem is another question entirely.
     
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  5. Trash Playergender: ⚧ Educated

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    It is a sad genre, isn't it?:0-13:
     
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  6. MilesBeyondgender: ⚧ Savant

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    No, they had the perfect solution for doomstacks - Siege Weapons. They even added in Flanking in that one expansion as the perfect solution to Siege Weapon Stacks of Doom. The problem is that they didn't teach the AI any of this.
     
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  7. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

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    having no contestant doesn't make you any better.
     
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  8. Make America Great Again cvvgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Then what are you compare it against? What is your imaginary dream game that Civ V can't hold a candle to?
     
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  9. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

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    let me try with an example.
    pick your favourite team sport. at the end of the season, the winning team scored 100 points, the runner up 95, the third 30. the third team is not "among the three best", it's just a fucking disgrace on top of even worse fucking disgraces.
     
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  10. ssergender: ⚧ Arcane Cuck

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  11. Make America Great Again The Brazilian Slaughtergender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Sometimes I wonder if anybody reads my posts...
    I have to repeat myself: The problem with Civilization combat is that it tries to simulate 5000 years of warfare in the single game, which ins't possible without a lot of thought given to mechanics. In fact, the game would need two or three different sets of mechanics - one for pre-1700 warfare and one for after.

    SMAC's combat is better because it simulates modern warfare with better tech. Infantry, Rovers, Jets, etc. The combat only changes radically by addition - you get better guns and amor, not go from swords to rifles. You also get new devices that take the war to new places - Foils, Cruisers, Needlejets and Choppers, the more exotic attachments like Drop Pods. Also collateral damage from CivII is less punishing here, so stacking outside cities get you punished, and stacking inside cities make you vulnerable to artillery and mind control. Not to mention the really weird stuff like combat terraforming, psi combat, etc.

    Paradox games have a nice answer to the doomstack problem: Supply limit. Translating it to 4X would mean that rather than 1UPT (which is retarded), each type of tile has X number of units allowed, and you can't go beyond the limit or only a penalty. Early wars would be very doomstacky, but eventually tech would make it so that modern units have to scatter and be in many squares rather than concentrate all in a single square- because if they do they either starve to the death or get wiped out by concentrated firepower.
     
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  12. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

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    "realism invictus" mod for civ4 has flanking and supply limit. and ai can into using ships. damn england, it kept colonizing on mainland europe.
     
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  13. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

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    CivIV combat, even with all its flaws, is bearable. CivV is a neverending grind. Clusterfuck of a system that renders retreats impossible, due to retarded implementation of hexes. Your entire empire could be locked because your army created a human centipede while moving through a bottleneck. 1UPT turned already crippled and badly applied mechanic unplayable.
    Once in a while I reinstall CivV and try it, because - maybe it gets better after some time and it is me who missed some strategic layers. But after several wars I uninstall it because the very concept of warfare in CivV is dumbed down to the amoeba levels.
    This and inability and utter lack of devs' understanding of how UI works. You are reminded about EVERY useless and meaningless shit, dip screen will play animation from every AI where they will announce that they like\dislike\wanted to see you. In Beyond Earth all this flaws and design atrocities only became so exxagarated that even most loyal Firaxis fanbois frowned upon it.
    No amount of of DLCs and expansions will fix it. What's worse - Firaxis will probably keep 1UPT and all their degenerade game design decisions to CivVI
     
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  14. tulusegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    A lot of civ5 is designed to prolong the game instead of providing actual fun or challenge.
     
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  15. Gozmagender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    There really really needed to be some "pay a serious cost to stack some units" rule so high difficulty AIs couldn't completely disembowel themselves at a choke point. Having three quarters of a huge invasion force commit suicide by embarking to get around a choke point omigah
     
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  16. Jigawattgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Well, there's Civ IV:BtS for one. I would posit that Endless Legend is better as well.
     
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  17. Norfleetgender: ⚧ Moderator

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    Doomstacks don't really exist in SMAC, anyway, because the maximum value that can be safely concentrated in a stack must be lower than the cost of a nuke. Otherwise, the stack gets nuked and ceases to exist.
     
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  18. Destroidgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Are nukes effective against unit stacks in CivIV? It's been too long since I played it.
     
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  19. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Nuke argument is faulty because nukes were only late-game solution and even then were not intended to use massively. CivIV mistake was that they turned siege weapons into a close-combat weapons. And first to the fight were the catapults. That is not a solution. In SMAC all units could deal collateral damage(maybe with the exception of needlejet). Yet SMAC had enough space for maneuvers, retreats and regroup. In CiVV\BE units fighting at the front are suicide troops as it is near impossible to save non-cavalry units. No wayto protect them. CiVIV - you attack with swordsman and have full-heath axeman protecting wounded swordsman at the same tile. CivV - front units cannot retreat because 1UPT and reserves at the back press on to the meat grinder.
     
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  20. Llordgender: ⚧ Novice

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    But you can. Just have to think about it beforehand. You do know that it is possible to swap positions of two units if both of them have enough movement?

    Combat system in CivV makes you consider terrain as none of previous ones did because it heavily influences all parts of gameplay. I spend as much time weighing out which city position is potentially more defendable as what economy bonuses it will provide. You enemy is behind a choke point? Don't start a war with him! Trade instead. You'll have to wait for artillery or send your troops around if you really need to destroy him.

    As it was already said the AI unfortunately can't handle this well. That's why as a single-player game CivV is probably a bit worse than CivIV. But the multiplayer is way better.

    And to stay on topic, Rising Tide changes seem interesting but I don't think they can do to BE what G&K did to CivV (make a decent game out of a mediocre one).
     
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  21. Make America Great Again baturinskygender: ⚧ Arcane

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    CivV combat is not THAt bad. Especially once you get to artillery, or your OP unique unit, if you have one.
     
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  22. Norfleetgender: ⚧ Moderator

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    Well, this is SMAC we're talking about, and nukes were available pretty early. They certainly were for me and I used the small-powered nukes specifically for targeted elimination of doomstacks.
     
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  23. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

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    In theory, you can. In practice, there's not enough space for maneuver. And I am not talking about bottlenecks. I know about swapping, and I know it doesn't help, only increase overall mess.
     
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  24. Llordgender: ⚧ Novice

    Llord
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    Well in my practice there usually is. Maybe you are playing completely different settings. The size of an active army in a conflict growth from about 5 units early on to maybe 20 in the endgame, but so does the battle front. It's harder to save your units in hilly/foresty areas, but then this is just another thing to keep in mind when planning the engagement.
     
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  25. MilesBeyondgender: ⚧ Savant

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    Plus Civ V combat has the awkward way that Archers and their upgrade line are game-breakingly powerful. Like, Zone of Control and 1UPT do not mix well and Civ V is the ultimate proof of this.
     
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