Game News Seven Dragon Saga Kickstarter is LIVE

[tuluse]

I'm less down on these kind of mechanics than the average Codexer. I'm not saying it's the best approach in the world, but I do think that it's hard -- sometimes impossible -- to come up with a good rationale for why the player characters' "verb set" is so different from that of every other character in the world. For example, why the PC is wandering all over the map and no one else seems to be, why the PC is solving these quests and no one else even tries, even stupid stuff like helping some guy deliver a letter to another guy 100 yards away, etc. Now, Din's Curse or AOD may avoid some of these "verb set" differences and ameliorate the problem, but almost all RPGs allow the PCs to behave like super- or simply non-normal beings in the setting. Tying that gameplay feature to the lore is an appropriate, even commendable, idea.

But I have a problem here, too, which is that it doesn't seem to align with Eastern fantasy at all. There are plenty of Eastern fantasy / wu-xia tropes that could be employed here, rather than a straight AD&D one. Same problem with dwarves and elves and goblinoids, etc. It's very incoherent and patchwork.

The obvious answer is that cRPGs are Randian propaganda. The heroes represent the supermen upon who's shoulders society rests. By talking on these challenges the heroes also gain rewards of power and wealth.

And of course, you never pay any taxes.

 

[CyberWhale]

 

[MRY]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's an insoluble problem, but I still don't think it's an easy one to solve, notwithstanding a few games' efforts to address it (7th Saga is another that pops to mind). Also, simply calling them "adventurers" is not enough to typically handle the kind of level-jumping the games include. (Notably, it's rare to see characters outside the party ever level up in an RPG.) You need some supernatural explanation (in my opinion) if you're going with that kind of arc (a bunch of friends grabbing a beer in a tavern and killing rats for pennies in Act 1 becoming godslayers by Act 3), which alas is the arc that basically every RPG has these days.

I guess maybe this is one of those things that has become "background noise" that players can screen out, but then so too is the "chosen one" set up, so if we're going to treat one as venerable, we may as well treat the other one as venerable too.

Which is all to say, I don't have a per se objection to the "select order" or "specially gifted" trope, which in fact was used in all sorts of RPGs that I've enjoyed (from PS:T to V:TM:B to Lone Wolf) as well as in many stories I've liked. But it works best when the whole thing is well integrated, which I'm not seeing here.

Also, I guess it's worth noting that the "band of ordinary adventures at a tavern" or some variation thereon was used in a lot of Gold Box games, and the "supernatural band" really only was used in perhaps Buck Rogers (I might be forgetting something), so perhaps that's a strike against this, too: its deviation from the source.

All of this just makes me think nostalgically about Daimyo Okado for FRUA.

 

[Athelas]

It's very easy to create other bands of adventurers and put an expiry date on quests.

Unfortunately these companies can't stay afloat by making games for the few hundred people that frequent the Codex. Given the critical and fan backlash for even lenient time limits (like the spirit eater mechanic in MoTB), I don't really see something like what you describe appearing in any of these RPG's. They're niche, but not *that* niche.

 

[Trash]

Yikes. That's a pretty steep goal. Hope the neat pitch and their credentials will help them pull this one off.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I didn't mean band of adventurers that are actually adventuring in real time. I meant adventurers in taverns or some ruins, as NPCs you run into. They share stories, barter with you, maybe even attack you or steal something from you. Won't take longer than 4-5 hours to set up each encounter, including writing.

 

[J_C]

If you pledge and they don't reach their funding goal, they don't get any of your money.

So when you say you're afraid to give $25 because it is too steep, you're basically saying you believe it will get funded.

Give nothing and it doesn't get funded and you keep your money.
Give nothing and it does get funded, but it sucks. You win.
Give nothing and it does get funded and it's awesome. Now it's $40...you suck.
Pledge $25 and it doesn't get funded and you keep your money.
Pledge $25 and it does get funded, but it sucks. YOU SUCK!
Pledge $25 and it does get funded and it's awesome. You win.

Fixed.

 

[tuluse]

I actually like the idea of the players being some kind of elite force, as long as it means the player are not the only ones.

It totally justifies why they have so much more agency than most of the NPCs in the worlds and gets them in a position for why they'd be selected for an important mission. It solves a lot of integration of the player into the world.

If the player party is simply a few of a larger group of said elites, then you avoid the chosen one trope. Of course the other elite forces have to do things from time to as well then.

 

[Athelas]

I didn't mean band of adventurers that are actually adventuring in real time. I meant adventurers in taverns or some ruins, as NPCs you run into. They share stories, barter with you, maybe even attack you or steal something from you. Won't take longer than 4-5 hours to set up each encounter, including writing.

Well, that mostly seems like a cosmetic thing and I don't see how that would solve that particular issue. If anything, it would make the chosen one status of the main party all the more glaring - they would be the only ones succeeding in the end, after all.

In most cases, you're better off just acknowledging the special snowflake status of the main protagonists, hopefully with some interesting writing backing up the special snowflaky-ness.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, that mostly seems like a cosmetic thing and I don't see how that would solve that particular issue.

Adds to the atmosphere, provides some lore, shows that there are other people, etc.

If anything, it would make the chosen one status of the main party all the more glaring - they would be the only ones succeeding in the end, after all.

Depends on the goals. If the goal is to kill the ancient evil, sure. If the goal is get some dragon steel and pacify the borderlands, you don't have to be the only one doing well.

 

[Trash]

I distinctly remember one of the Wizardry games having rival adventurers going after the target artefacts. Always wondered why we didn't see more rpg's do something like that.

 

[felipepepe]

What I don't like about the video is that I feel it underestimate players. They hold up on any detail or technicality, so it sounds generic as fuck. Paul Murray is the goddamn system designer and his lines are:

Seven Dragon Saga is a game based on a tabletop game we've been playing for quite long time. It got some really cool features... we're using turn-based combat, which means you have full control of your party, of up to six characters. Characters can end up totally unique, and there's no best way of building a character. So... you just have the control over the characters in the party, you design all the characters and... it's just a fun game to play.

C'mon, I could get my 8-years-old cousin to sell the features of her doll with more details and technicalities. He was designer on stuff like Pool of Radiance and Wizard's Crown, they are doing a pitch riding on SSI nostalgia and still it's all so bland and casual... "it's fun to play", ugh.

 

[Athelas]

"it's fun to play", ugh.

I dunno, this seems like a fairly important thing to keep in mind when designing a game.

 

[tuluse]

"it's fun to play", ugh.

I dunno, this seems like a fairly important thing to keep in mind when designing a game.

Have you ever been sold a game where the person selling said it wasn't "fun to play"?

This is like selling a car and saying "it has 4 wheels and an engine".

 

[Vault Dweller]

It does sound like they are pitching it to people who are just discovering RPGs (create a party with stats and skills! each character is different and fun to play with! you control them all), even though the only people who really give a fuck are people old enough to remember SSI.

Of course, targeting the grognards may seem like a mistake (why target a smaller market when you can target a bigger market?!), but these 'casual-friendly' kickstarters don't seem to do too well with the casuals (not enough 'oomph') because they aren't the target audience.

This is like selling a car and saying "it has 4 wheels and an engine".

And it goes vroom-vroom.

 

[Athelas]

Have you ever been sold a game where the person selling said it wasn't "fun to play"?

This is like selling a car and saying "it has 4 wheels and an engine".

When people try to sell you something, they will usually neglect to mention a defect rather than lie about the defect. I don't think I need to explain why.

The analogy is also flawed because 4 wheels and an engine are a given for every car, whereas 'fun to play' is not a given for an RPG.

 

[CyberWhale]

The analogy is also flawed because 4 wheels and an engine are a given for every car

You would be surprised.

whereas 'fun to play' is not a given for an RPG.

It should be.

 

[Declinator]

Have you ever been sold a game where the person selling said it wasn't "fun to play"?

This is like selling a car and saying "it has 4 wheels and an engine".

When people try to sell you something, they will usually neglect to mention a defect rather than lie about the defect. I don't think I need to explain why.

The analogy is also flawed because 4 wheels and an engine are a given for every car, whereas 'fun to play' is not a given for an RPG.

 

[MRY]

I feel somewhat guilty about my negative reaction to this KSer (which, for the record, I've backed!) because on some level it feels like, "These guys suck because they didn't bother to hire a marketing consultant / didn't spend enough time on marketing themselves." Everything about the project (from the initial announcement to the website) has been mediocre in that regard, but in theory we should look past that to the substance. But for whatever reason, in this case the two seem intertwined.

 

[tuluse]

I feel somewhat guilty about my negative reaction to this KSer (which, for the record, I've backed!) because on some level it feels like, "These guys suck because they didn't bother to hire a marketing consultant / didn't spend enough time on marketing themselves." Everything about the project (from the initial announcement to the website) has been mediocre in that regard, but in theory we should look past that to the substance. But for whatever reason, in this case the two seem intertwined.

There's not much substance either, that's one of the big problems. This isn't like Zaharia where they had a detailed pitch and even a playable demo, but poor English and marketing.

What do you imagine the game playing like outside of combat? From what they've said I have no idea.

 

[Musaab]

Not sure what you were going for with your decision matrix but it looks like there's no dominant strategy, so...

I don't know where I was going, either.

Just give your money and let's see what they do.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Have you ever been sold a game where the person selling said it wasn't "fun to play"?

To be fair we have seen games marketed as delivering a cinematic experience with a touching/extreme/generic/unique story, and little spoken of gameplay itself.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I feel somewhat guilty about my negative reaction to this KSer (which, for the record, I've backed!) because on some level it feels like, "These guys suck because they didn't bother to hire a marketing consultant / didn't spend enough time on marketing themselves." Everything about the project (from the initial announcement to the website) has been mediocre in that regard, but in theory we should look past that to the substance. But for whatever reason, in this case the two seem intertwined.

What we want (or what I want) is not MOAR marketing but to see some geeks talking design and being really fucking excited about it. Like this one:



I backed it the moment I finished watching the video.

 

[J_C]

I feel somewhat guilty about my negative reaction to this KSer (which, for the record, I've backed!) because on some level it feels like, "These guys suck because they didn't bother to hire a marketing consultant / didn't spend enough time on marketing themselves." Everything about the project (from the initial announcement to the website) has been mediocre in that regard, but in theory we should look past that to the substance. But for whatever reason, in this case the two seem intertwined.

They are asking our money upfront, so I think they should tell/show us interesting things about the game. So far, it is not convincing at all. The only interesting thing was when you choose different behaviors at levelup, and if you get bonuses if you adhere to them.

I feel somewhat guilty about my negative reaction to this KSer (which, for the record, I've backed!) because on some level it feels like, "These guys suck because they didn't bother to hire a marketing consultant / didn't spend enough time on marketing themselves." Everything about the project (from the initial announcement to the website) has been mediocre in that regard, but in theory we should look past that to the substance. But for whatever reason, in this case the two seem intertwined.

What we want (or what I want) is not MOAR marketing but to see some geeks talking design and being really fucking excited about it. Like this one:



I backed it the moment I finished watching the video.

And it is not surprising you backed it. I myself was truly interested in the video, the guy was enthusiast, honest, explained a lot of stuff. I'm not exagerating that while watching the Seven Dragon pitch video, I already made up mind that I won't back it. I was not convinced at all. The devs didn't look too enthusiast about it, and were very vague. The awful looking gameplay video didn't help.

 

[Athelas]

Well well, a shout-out from Obsidian in one of the PoE updates. Let's see what happens.