Game News Seven Dragon Saga Kickstarter is LIVE

[karnak]

Underworld had a campaign that started meh and got worse, but the OtherSiders worked very hard on interacting with the community and they had a decent brand, so they made it. Seven Dragon Saga's pitch is a bit better than Underworld's, but still not great, and they have no community and a weak brand, so they're toast.

Maybe they can get some sponsoring from Peter Molyneux and Cleve Blakemore. That'd help.

 

[Blackstaff]

Some tweets from Fargo, HBS, Garriott and co would be a good beginning.

 

[karnak]

Some tweets from Fargo, HBS, Garriott and co would be a good beginning.

Yup. They should have asked for support from some of the old veterans.
Unless, of course, they all see each others as rivals and competitors.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My thoughts on the campaign so far:

- the video was kinda meh (but I don't really like videos as I prefer reading about game mechanics and design)
- the combat looked ok-ish but nothing to write home about. If it was the first TB game making a comeback, maybe. It's not though and it looks generic and kinda uninspiring. It made me think that maybe I should replay ToEE now.
- the setting/story intro is god-awful. Such things were the cutting edge of storytelling in the 80s but fuck man...

"The Touched, chosen elite of the emperor, able to wield powers of Chaos both awesome and terrifying. A band of six martial specialists charged with removing the greatest threats to the empire from even the farthest flung corners of the known world."

Sounds like a rejected Mass Effect plot.

"It's been far too long since you played an RPG like this!"
^ No kidding

"In this first installment of Seven Dragon Saga you shape the wild and dangerous Drakelands with your choices. Impress with noble deeds. Coerce with threats and violence. Or simply lay waste to the empire's enemies without mercy or regret."
^ It is fantasy Mass Effect, isn't it?

So the intro sucks, then we get:

- the endorsement page - skip
- in the news: chosen quotes - skip
- crossing words - skip
- who we are - skip
- story - straight from the 80s, if there's any depth there, it's well hidden
- gameplay - finally! character design - it will have both stats and skills, oh my, how exciting; core gameplay - combat, quests, and unspecified factions; the chaos touched - they are the best of the best, feared and unpredictable, like Commander Shepard, the first of the Chaos Touched; use of power - finally something actually interesting and exciting; why kickstarter - yeah, that there is a real mystery.
- tiers - meh; when I support games I rarely go for the cheapest tiers, but starting with $25 on KS is a well-documented mistake, even if you feel that your game is worth 25 bucks and not a penny less; you aren't selling your game, you're drumming up support.

First update:

"Good first day"
^ Liar.

"What you all have demonstrated is a clear demand for quality, fun experiences and with your help that's exactly what we'll deliver for Seven Dragon Saga!"
^ They totally did.

"Though we accomplished a great deal today..."
^ Um, you really didn't. No offense and all.

"Over the next weeks we will be providing a steady stream of design explanations. We allude to many design choices on our page, but the limited space prevents us from fleshing out the details."
^ Well, I'm glad you plastered it with generic concept art - look! a barefoot female elven archer! how awesome is that? wouldn't YOU like to play a barefoot archer? well, you can! - and included that much needed letter from the emperor.

For a game that's been in development for a while, it's an inexcusably and disappointingly weak campaign start.

 

[Aenra]

Some tweets from Fargo, HBS, Garriott and co would be a good beginning.

Yup. They should have asked for support from some of the old veterans.
Unless, of course, they all see each others as rivals and competitors.

i think it is rather obvious that they already have both discussed, and been assured of future support;

we do afterall already have a SotA exclusive item for Saga backers, so i believe that should have told you something on its own
as with previous KS projects, this is probably a move reserved for later stages

 

[ghostdog]

They should have submitted this to Bioware as a Jade Empire sequel idea.

 

[Zed]

- the endorsement page - skip
- in the news: chosen quotes - skip
- crossing words - skip
- who we are - skip

Exactly this. Too much, uh, "bullshit", too little "Here's the game and what it's about! Get excited!"

"Over the next weeks we will be providing a steady stream of design explanations. We allude to many design choices on our page, but the limited space prevents us from fleshing out the details."

What limited space? Have they seen the Torment updates?

 

[Bester]

The $25 entry price is also too high for many people

That's the first thing that I thought. Even Fargo did $15 early bird tiers, and he's got a gamedev studio. These guys - their specialization isn't in video games, right? They're the guys who were involved in the creation of tabletop dnd editions? I'd risk $15 on something that might not get delivered ever, but $25 is a little steep.

 

[Zed]

"Over the next weeks we will be providing a steady stream of design explanations. We allude to many design choices on our page, but the limited space prevents us from fleshing out the details."

What limited space? Have they seen the Torment updates?

Oops, my mistake, I thought they were talking about limited space in future updates.
Still, if they'd have cut down on the aforementioned bullshit, they'd have a ton of space.

 

[Lurker King]

the setting/story intro is god-awful. Such things were the cutting edge of storytelling in the 80s but fuck man...

You are right. If we just blinded support a game every time a veteran developer mention “classic old box games” with amateurish concept we are not better than the popamole bunch. Shame on me for being blinded enthusiastic by this. The campaign is almost offensive to the intelligence of the players: “Let’s just throw a generic fantasy setting with dwarfs and stuff since this is what RPGs are all about”. The last straw was this review that I found on their site. One of the developers praising DA: I! I’m out of here. You will not see my money.

 

[Athelas]

the setting/story intro is god-awful. Such things were the cutting edge of storytelling in the 80s but fuck man...

You are right. If we just blinded support a game every time a veteran developer mention “classic old box games” with amateurish concept we will be no better than the popamole bunch. Shame on me for being blinded enthusiastic by this. The campaign is almost offensive to the intelligence of the players: “Let’s just throw a generic fantasy setting with dwarfs and stuff since this is what RPGs are all about”.

Spoiler

 

[Vault Dweller]

Let's wait and see before we jump to conclusions. Just because the intro is bad doesn't mean the overall design is bad.

 

[Shannow]

Spoiler

My thoughts on the campaign so far:

- the video was kinda meh (but I don't really like videos as I prefer reading about game mechanics and design)
- the combat looked ok-ish but nothing to write home about. If it was the first TB game making a comeback, maybe. It's not though and it looks generic and kinda uninspiring. It made me think that maybe I should replay ToEE now.
- the setting/story intro is god-awful. Such things were the cutting edge of storytelling in the 80s but fuck man...

"The Touched, chosen elite of the emperor, able to wield powers of Chaos both awesome and terrifying. A band of six martial specialists charged with removing the greatest threats to the empire from even the farthest flung corners of the known world."

Sounds like a rejected Mass Effect plot.

"It's been far too long since you played an RPG like this!"
^ No kidding

"In this first installment of Seven Dragon Saga you shape the wild and dangerous Drakelands with your choices. Impress with noble deeds. Coerce with threats and violence. Or simply lay waste to the empire's enemies without mercy or regret."
^ It is fantasy Mass Effect, isn't it?

So the intro sucks, then we get:

- the endorsement page - skip
- in the news: chosen quotes - skip
- crossing words - skip
- who we are - skip
- story - straight from the 80s, if there's any depth there, it's well hidden
- gameplay - finally! character design - it will have both stats and skills, oh my, how exciting; core gameplay - combat, quests, and unspecified factions; the chaos touched - they are the best of the best, feared and unpredictable, like Commander Shepard, the first of the Chaos Touched; use of power - finally something actually interesting and exciting; why kickstarter - yeah, that there is a real mystery.
- tiers - meh; when I support games I rarely go for the cheapest tiers, but starting with $25 on KS is a well-documented mistake, even if you feel that your game is worth 25 bucks and not a penny less; you aren't selling your game, you're drumming up support.

First update:

"Good first day"
^ Liar.

"What you all have demonstrated is a clear demand for quality, fun experiences and with your help that's exactly what we'll deliver for Seven Dragon Saga!"
^ They totally did.

"Though we accomplished a great deal today..."
^ Um, you really didn't. No offense and all.

"Over the next weeks we will be providing a steady stream of design explanations. We allude to many design choices on our page, but the limited space prevents us from fleshing out the details."
^ Well, I'm glad you plastered it with generic concept art - look! a barefoot female elven archer! how awesome is that? wouldn't YOU like to play a barefoot archer? well, you can! - and included that much needed letter from the emperor.

For a game that's been in development for a while, it's an inexcusably and disappointingly weak campaign start.

I really miss VD's news posts. Though this made me depressed

On the whole Chaos Touched = Shepard = Chosen One:
I'm divided on this. On the one hand they aim to start with competent characters (AFAIK) which then probably develop into super-human heroes. The way I understand it, they start as Navy SEALs and only get stronger from there on. Much more powerful than average citizens. No fleeing from house-cats in a panic (if it's implemented that way.)
While I wouldn't mind a game without the super-human epic part (which I expect here too), I like that the concept clearly states that you are more powerful than an average person and why this is so. Shepard was touted as being speshul, but in the end it was just kiddie power-dreams gratification through exposition and not supported by actual gameplay.
On the other hand I agree with VD...

I "disagree" on the setting and story though. The setting is intriguing, fresh and provides ample opportunity for good stories, IMO. If they manage to pull of the "You influence/shape the borderland development"-aspect well, then that might even be great and emergent. Granted, it's no "You've got a piece of metal up your ass. That makes you speshul. Now go and save the world.". But what is

 

[karnak]

Let's wait and see before we jump to conclusions. Just because the intro is bad doesn't mean the overall design is bad.

Yeah. Kingdom Come's Kickstarter initially made it look like an Oblivion set in real Europe, without dragons or magic (at least to me).

 

[Lurker King]

the setting/story intro is god-awful. Such things were the cutting edge of storytelling in the 80s but fuck man...

You are right. If we just blinded support a game every time a veteran developer mention “classic old box games” with amateurish concept we will be no better than the popamole bunch. Shame on me for being blinded enthusiastic by this. The campaign is almost offensive to the intelligence of the players: “Let’s just throw a generic fantasy setting with dwarfs and stuff since this is what RPGs are all about”.

Spoiler

Well, except that Obsidian Entertainment have developers that proved themselves in the past. I can’t say the same thing about the devs at Tactical Simulations Interactive.

 

[Jan S. aus K.]

pledged and hope it succeeds. cant understand why some people percieve it so negative.
the idea alone that there is a studio that tries to bring back the spirit of ssi makes me wish them all the best.

 

[InspectorRumpole]

Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

A shame really, because some of their ideas seem cool on paper.

As someone who never played any of the Goldbox games - but always hear veteran gamers rave about the great times they've had with these games, i wanted in on that experience.

A Codex fundraiser for $1000 means we get to help design a faction.

The Grognardians, a tribe of grey beards who believe all the laws governing society must be uneven in scope and applicability. Cast spells that screw up the balance of the party's character progression.

I mean that i don't think the Kickstarter will be successful.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If they manage to pull of the "You influence/shape the borderland development"-aspect well, then that might even be great and emergent.

That's a big if though and an even bigger aspect of the game (big enough to be the core of the game, if done right). However, more often than not such things are done wrong, Bioware-style. Kill everyone, then let the insect Queen live - a noble deed because genocide (you've just committed) is wrong. Or kill everyone AND the Queen because there is no mercy left in you.

What they described is uncomfortably close to the Bioware design:

"In this first installment of Seven Dragon Saga you shape the wild and dangerous Drakelands with your choices. Impress with noble deeds. Coerce with threats and violence. Or simply lay waste to the empire's enemies without mercy or regret."

Thus we have:

- a noble deed (after fighting your way through to the place where you get to make the choice, I presume, since it's a combat-heavy game; possibly helping the villagers with their problems)
- a threat
- kill 'em all

There is no depth in such choices.

 

[Bester]

On the left - an icon from their action bar. On the right, an icon from here. (or more precisely here)

It's only slightly redrawn:

Armor, just flipped, almost not redrawn:

Their particle effects look like shit, which makes me think it's another unity asset for mobile games, I can't be arsed to search.

The dragon seems to be this one, but slightly retextured (with small changes to the mesh: the smaller pair of horns removed and the tip of the tail is different)... and animated differently (worse than the original... lol).

As for the goblins, it may be Unity's fantasy goblins asset, but again slightly altered. Can't see for sure, their vid is too low res.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

What they described is uncomfortably close to the Bioware design:

You seem to infer way too much from these three short sentences. Maybe we should wait for a bit more information on their approach before we put them in a box with Bioware.

 

[Bester]

"Good first day"
^ Liar.

"What you all have demonstrated is a clear demand for quality, fun experiences and with your help that's exactly what we'll deliver for Seven Dragon Saga!"
^ They totally did.

I know a guy who's going to launch a kickstarter and he hired a PR manager lady who worked with many kickstarter campaigns and that's more or less the text that she wrote for him for his first day update. Apparently TSI hired someone like that as well, and never suspected that their KS might flop...

Unfortunately for them, they didn't hire anyone to control the quality of their KS pitch video...

 

[MRY]

"The Touched, chosen elite of the emperor, able to wield powers of Chaos both awesome and terrifying. A band of six martial specialists charged with removing the greatest threats to the empire from even the farthest flung corners of the known world."

Sounds like a rejected Mass Effect plot.

I'm less down on these kind of mechanics than the average Codexer. I'm not saying it's the best approach in the world, but I do think that it's hard -- sometimes impossible -- to come up with a good rationale for why the player characters' "verb set" is so different from that of every other character in the world. For example, why the PC is wandering all over the map and no one else seems to be, why the PC is solving these quests and no one else even tries, even stupid stuff like helping some guy deliver a letter to another guy 100 yards away, etc. Now, Din's Curse or AOD may avoid some of these "verb set" differences and ameliorate the problem, but almost all RPGs allow the PCs to behave like super- or simply non-normal beings in the setting. Tying that gameplay feature to the lore is an appropriate, even commendable, idea.

But I have a problem here, too, which is that it doesn't seem to align with Eastern fantasy at all. There are plenty of Eastern fantasy / wu-xia tropes that could be employed here, rather than a straight AD&D one. Same problem with dwarves and elves and goblinoids, etc. It's very incoherent and patchwork.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What they described is uncomfortably close to the Bioware design:

You seem to infer way too much from these three short sentences. Maybe we should wait for a bit more information on their approach before we put them in a box with Bioware.

Because that's what these choices are: noble paladin, chaotic neutral, murderous evil. They might work in a single situation, but here they seem to be a blanket approach - a recipe of how to reshape the land.

Be noble and make everyone see how awesome you are and that they've been wrong about the empire. Threaten them and prove their worst fears. Or kill them all and don't worry about nothing.

 

[Musaab]

If you pledge and they don't reach their funding goal, they don't get any of your money.

So when you say you're afraid to give $25 because it is too steep, you're basically saying you believe it will get funded.

Give nothing and it doesn't get funded and you keep your money.
Give nothing and it does get funded, but it sucks. You win.
Give nothing and it does get funded and it's awesome. Now it's $40...you suck.
Pledge $25 and it doesn't get funded and you keep your money.
Pledge $25 and it does get funded, but it sucks.
Pledge $25 and it does get funded and it's awesome. You win.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"The Touched, chosen elite of the emperor, able to wield powers of Chaos both awesome and terrifying. A band of six martial specialists charged with removing the greatest threats to the empire from even the farthest flung corners of the known world."

Sounds like a rejected Mass Effect plot.

I'm less down on these kind of mechanics than the average Codexer. I'm not saying it's the best approach in the world, but I do think that it's hard -- sometimes impossible -- to come up with a good rationale for why the player characters' "verb set" is so different from that of every other character in the world.

I don't see it as a problem that needs solving. The concept of adventurers - people who don't want to work the land, pay taxes, and raise snot-nosed children - is old, proven, reliable, and historically accurate. Saying that a band of adventurers has signed up to go into the borderlands to get some dragon steel (and some of that sweet elven pussy - would work as one of the Goals too!) is more than enough.

For example, why the PC is wandering all over the map and no one else seems to be, why the PC is solving these quests and no one else even tries, even stupid stuff like helping some guy deliver a letter to another guy 100 yards away, etc.

It's very easy to create other bands of adventurers and put an expiry date on quests.

Edit: In Anvil of Dawn you picked your character out of seven or eight adventurers. During your adventure you'd often run into the other guys, usually dead or dying. They offered info and items, often the very items you were looking for yourself. It was a very nice touch as it created an impression that you weren't the only one, that other men were sent too, but they just weren't as lucky.