Research Help: Non-american otaku in the 80/90's.

[damicore]

So this is what people wanted shinji to be instead of being a "crybaby" all the time? Interesting

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

My fucking eyes, I'm blind!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

So have I mentioned how much I hate the EVA fandom? I have? Well, I think it bears re-iteration.

So this is what people wanted shinji to be instead of being a "crybaby" all the time? Interesting

I'm brofisting you for pointing out that the crybaby bullshit is just bullshit. Those "people" don't even know how people work.

 

[felipepepe]

Man, it's hard to keep talking about anime, fanboys & cliches without derailijng into Evangelion every 2 pages... o_O

So, let me force another subject:

When do you guys think that jRPG went "too far"?

Most people would think around the FF7 era, with Cloud and all that, but I found most amusing to heard one codexer saying he played & loved all the first FF, but felt betrayed when he saw a Tv commercial showing how those pixel blocks were supposed to actually look like...

But in fact, character designs were quite unique and non-anime in the early days of jRPG. Amano's FF design can't be called "anime cliche", for instance. And take Lufia 2 for example:

On left we have Guy as you played with him, on the middle his concept art as was shown on the manual, and on the right how he was "re-imagined" for Lufia 2 DS remake... even worse, here's Tia:

Yup, pointless googles, marketable mascots, retarded grins, short skirts, is all there...

There is no doubt that most jRPG character design are otaku-only now, taken even farther by how "Nier" had two character designs, a thin white haired kid for Japan, and a generic barbarian for the west:

Funny enough, most people don't mind Chrono Trigger characters, even though it was made by Mr. Toriyama, a anime artist... prove of his talent to make universal designs, something that clearly was lost?

 

[Hirato]

My first JRPG was Final Fantasy X, I really liked it; The stupid story (in before Tidus), the music, the turn-based combat system.
In my defense I was young (and subsequently the target audience) and it was the first month in my life in which I had access to a console.

It's no secret that the Final Fantasy series has declined pretty heavily since X, and even X was considered decline by most fans back then.
Though the problems with Final Fantasy as a whole seem more to do with Squeenix having no goals/direction for the future, resulting in games like FF XII which turn our given protagonists into irrelevant background props halfway through.

I have next to no idea what things were like in the past and I am woefully inexperienced with the genre as a whole, but everything I see advertised on sankakucomplex tend to follow one of the following formats....
- X an RPG with saucy fan service!
- X of series Y turned into a loli to appeal to a wider audience!
- X an RPG from Y: it looks just like anime!
- X - full blown XXXXX action!

And then there's the occasional ironic troll piece from bioware, "Bioware: JRPGs have stagnated!"
I'm not quite sure what to make of all that, sancom hardly qualifies as a news source.

I don't mind the whole stylised moe look, but I need a lot more from anime and games than just moe to enjoy them. Overall, I think moe detracts from the whole experience, especially in anime, as it just invites stereotypes, archetypes and cliches you've seen a hundred times before and which no longer entertain.
I can't help but think that, much like how the west put their eggs in the baskets of realism and graphics, many japs are doing likewise for moe and emulating 2D via 3D.


in a way, I actually feel kind of sorry for the otaku.
Their hobby basically consists of a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome; keeping an industry alive whose sole purpose is to exploit and manipulate them for their own gain; They are prisoners and moe is their chains.

 

[Tehdagah]

Funny enough, most people don't mind Chrono Trigger characters, even though it was made by Mr. Toriyama, a anime artist... prove of his talent to make universal designs, something that clearly was lost?

He is overrated.

 

[felipepepe]

He is overrated.

Yeah, not so much on CT, but I honestly hate Dragon Quest exactly because every character is Goku and the mosnters have the same look over and over again...

Still, his designs for Frog and Robo where very nice, and riding on DBZ wagon or not, the characters are still liked (or at least tolerated) by most people, unlike FFVII, IX or X...

My first JRPG was Final Fantasy X

I feel so old.

 

[Cosmo]

He is overrated.

It depends : on the other side his work (his good stuff at least) has a simple, unassuming, and genuine childlike quality that is all too easy to disregard or forget.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I don't mind the whole stylised moe look, but I need a lot more from anime and games than just moe to enjoy them. Overall, I think moe detracts from the whole experience, especially in anime, as it just invites stereotypes, archetypes and cliches you've seen a hundred times before and which no longer entertain.
I can't help but think that, much like how the west put their eggs in the baskets of realism and graphics, many japs are doing likewise for moe and emulating 2D via 3D.


in a way, I actually feel kind of sorry for the otaku.
Their hobby basically consists of a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome; keeping an industry alive whose sole purpose is to exploit and manipulate them for their own gain; They are prisoners and moe is their chains.

Absolutely correct (and the moe-chain analogy is very good). Like we mentioned earlier, the worse problem with the stereotypes and cliches is not that they're repeated... It's that they're superficial elements that are being repeated.

One thing I've wondered, lacking in extensive knowledge, is that could the problem of the anime and manga culture be precisely because it is centered around what you're selling? A major change in Western comics was when the writer became the prominent point, or as Grant Morrison explained it in Supergods, after Watchmen and Swamp Thing, DC was no longer selling simply Batman comics or Superman comics. They were selling said characters written by specific writers, with the combination of the writer and the character being the key to the audience.

By contrast, in manga and anime I've been getting the impression that most people involved are one-hit wonders, doing one or two series that they prolong as long as possible before fading into obscurity, with only the absolutely most talented like Hayao Miyazaki or Mamoru Oshii being able to establish themselves as household names. In fact, I can only think of people involved in the anime industry who manage to establish themselves than in the manga (and my impression has been that the manga industry is like a slave plantation), and who are serious artistic heavyweights.

I guess a major element to this is that there was no "creator revolt" in manga, the way there was in American comics in the 90's, so the publishers still treat the creators like utter shit.

He is overrated.

It depends : on the other side his work (his good stuff at least) has a simple, unassuming, and genuine childlike quality that is all too easy to disregard or forget.

And really, the one thing that his Dragon Ball manga really does have going for it is Toriyama's artwork. He's got something similar to what Jack Kirby had, a great deal of kinetic energy and passion that overflew in his action scenes. The old Kirby description of "barely contained in the pages the art seems to try to jump right out of" fits him quite well.

 

[felipepepe]

One thing I've wondered, lacking in extensive knowledge, is that could the problem of the anime and manga culture be precisely because it is centered around what you're selling? A major change in Western comics was when the writer became the prominent point, or as Grant Morrison explained it in Supergods, after Watchmen and Swamp Thing, DC was no longer selling simply Batman comics or Superman comics. They were selling said characters written by specific writers, with the combination of the writer and the character being the key to the audience.

By contrast, in manga and anime I've been getting the impression that most people involved are one-hit wonders, doing one or two series that they prolong as long as possible before fading into obscurity, with only the absolutely most talented like Hayao Miyazaki or Mamoru Oshii being able to establish themselves as household names. In fact, I can only think of people involved in the anime industry who manage to establish themselves than in the manga (and my impression has been that the manga industry is like a slave plantation), and who are serious artistic heavyweights.

I guess a major element to this is that there was no "creator revolt" in manga, the way there was in American comics in the 90's, so the publishers still treat the creators like utter shit.

I think you're right to the point, there are no more manga/anime famous creators... researching on this you read all about how some directors like Noboru Ishiguro were considered masters of their art, that people would go watch anime they were directing for the great quality in effects and combat scenes... yet nowadays that is completly unheard.

Even worse, you can see that most manga creators are aware of their one-hit-wonder status and tend to milk the shit out of their work, instead of keeping a short & high quality work and giving the series a worthy finale. Or they are pressured into doing so; Death Note was supposed to end with L dying and exposing Kira in the process, lasting only 6 volumes, but the authors said they were "forced" into writting 6 more volumes of all that Near/Mello shit due pressure from Jump... if the authors of such a great success can't stand their ground, they are clearly patethic just sad robots working for industry & fans that don't care about quality.

Perhaps is as the comics, they need to be destroyed by korean manhwa or the like so a "new wave of japanese manga" can rise up, where the authors matter... problem is, it seems that the audience itself doesn't care about anything more than their kawaii moes...

 

[alkeides]

I think exploring pricing of media products would be a productive venue for research. DVDs and Blu-Rays cost a shitload more new in Japan than anywhere else for example. They include a lot of おまけ but who really cares about that besides otaku? The same pricing model actually applies for other media products though.

 

[felipepepe]

I think exploring pricing of media products would be a productive venue for research. DVDs and Blu-Rays cost a shitload more new in Japan than anywhere else for example. They include a lot of おまけ but who really cares about that besides otaku? The same pricing model actually applies for other media products though.

I never researched much into it, even though in a souless marketing graduate I'm trying to approach this from a cultural point of view, especially since I'm more worried about the global impact of otaku cuture devolving into ghetto than on Japan itself. (And to be honest, I have to follow this path, the scholarship won't approve people studying Japan without speaking japanese fluently ). Still, you're right, I should at least be aware of their prices, so I can understand what is the percieved cost/reward they expect from all those moe dvds lying around...

Still, during my time in Japan I noted that they do have a MASSIVE gap between new/used prices (proved by the fact that I only bought used stuff - including a PS2 Disgaea CE for 10 dollars :D). Not sure if I'm used to thirdworldian people not caring if it's new or used as long as it's cheap, but you could see that companies where charging a great deal of money for those who value getting their shrink wrapped, never-before-touched dvds...

 

[Hirato]

Thanks to Vaarnie, I'm now imagining anthropomorphic chains with lines like.
- I-It's not like I want to tie y-you up or a-anything! B-Baka!
- You're thinking of doing lewd things with me, aren't you? Pervert!
- D-Don't break me, Onii-chan.
- I-I want to feel you in my bonds, Onii-chan.
- P-Please try me on, I-I'll be gentle.

Even worse, you can see that most manga creators are aware of their one-hit-wonder status and tend to milk the shit out of their work, instead of keeping a short & high quality work and giving the series a worthy finale. Or they are pressured into doing so; Death Note was supposed to end with L dying and exposing Kira in the process, lasting only 6 volumes, but the authors said they were "forced" into writting 6 more volumes of all that Near/Mello shit due pressure from Jump... if the authors of such a great success can't stand their ground, they are clearly patethic just sad robots working for industry & fans that don't care about quality.

It never ceases to amaze me just how well they've mastered the art of padding, Just ask WhiskeyWolf about Detective Conan.
What are they up to these days? 670 episodes?

 

[alkeides]

Still, during my time in Japan I noted that they do have a MASSIVE gap between new/used prices (proved by the fact that I only bought used stuff - including a PS2 Disgaea CE for 10 dollars :D). Not sure if I'm used to thirdworldian people not caring if it's new or used as long as it's cheap, but you could see that companies where charging a great deal of money for those who value getting their shrink wrapped, never-before-touched dvds...

Yeah there's a lot of disposal of very new items in Japan. I picked up a lot of used DVDs when I was there too. I don't know if it's mostly a Tokyo thing though. Kansai people might be more pragmatic.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Another thing that's interesting is how conformist most of the creators are. But more importantly, how it's usually the famous people who aren't in one-hit wonder status who are the most non-conformist. Evangelion is again a very good example, since it's a very harsh denouncement of the cliches it deconstructs and the lifestyle otaku culture is willingly building around itself... And how the audience and peers completely missed Anno's point and just added more angst and religious symbols into their work (hilarious part is that the religious symbols were there purely for the visuals). It ties in with the whole idea that they're "creating anime/manga", which is an entirely wrong mindset. A good description of the right mindset is how critics describe Miyazaki and Oshii: They make movies and stories, that happen to be animated, and take advantage of the possibilities their format allows.

It's actually a very interesting thing, the whole submissiveness of the Japanese manga creators. Especially when they most likely know that they could have it otherwise. Alan Moore for example, is in a position where he can simply proclaim "fuck da police" and take off from DC along with his own intellectual property the moment they censored a minor background mock ad in his League. Grant Morrison on the other hand cooperates with DC and works with big publishers, but in that relationship it's clear that it's Grant who's calling the shots, because both sides know that Grant's got the talent and the name that'll get DC sales and critical acclaim.

The most interesting aspect is the rise of the limited series. Now, in Europe it has existed a lot longer due to the different publishing method, the single album instead of issues, but recurring characters were a thing over here too (classic example being the fantastic body of work Renee Goscinny had), but nowadays the majority of American comics, outside of the handful of series that are big enough to sustain eternal sales (half of them some manner of X-Men titles, which boggles the mind considering what shlock those are), are focused on telling stories with a start and an ending. Hell, until recently as far as everyone was concerned, Swamp Thing truly started and ended with Alan Moore's run, and similarly with Grant Morrison and Animal Man. Simply because these two long runs were exhaustive and fully explored what could be termed as THE story for those characters, and finally provided a satisfying ending (the most striking of which, in my opinion, is Grant Morrison's last issue of Doom Patrol). Others tried to continue, of course, but it simply never works out. The monthly title evolves into a closed ultimate arc.

And of course, then we have works like Watchmen and The Invisibles, which are fully designed from the start to be contained stories. Even the characters previously driven by ongoing titles are now defined by their limited series. The most important example of these in the recent years is one of the best ever written, Grant Morrison's All-Star Superman, which like Alan Moore's Supreme is essentially a highly talented writer's love letter to the greatest of all heroes in the human mass consciousness, the Man of Tomorrow (personally I agree with them, the most resonant nickname for Superman is not the Man of Steel, but the Man of Tomorrow).



The truly astonishing part? This entire development was ultimately caused by an editor, Karen Berger, who was the one who wanted comics to take a giant leap and become something more than they were before. Seems to be that there are no such people in the Japanese manga publishing industry. Even in anime, it's usually the same people and studios who continue to make the truly interesting and daring projects.


EDIT: One thing I thought might interest you people:

Grant Morrison has said that nowadays with dwindling comic book sales, he'd prefer to leave the industry to make room for new writers, and instead start to seriously write video games, which he feels have the potential to be the next step in storytelling.

Then again, he says that after he made it clear he would like to write video games, he hasn't been getting calls about it like before. He even wrote a little thing about what he'd consider to be a game he'd like to play, which is a GTA type game where your choices ALTER REALITY, as in if you start doing things like going to a voodoo shop enough, eventually you'll end up in a flying saucer fighting zombies.

Hmmmmm, maybe we should ask MCA if he and Obsidian would like to make a game with Grant Morrison?

 

[felipepepe]

The truly astonishing part? This entire development was ultimately caused by an editor, Karen Berger, who was the one who wanted comics to take a giant leap and become something more than they were before.

That's what's missing in Japan, a strong man willing to take things beyond. Problem is that manga is harder, titles and authors are unseparable; you can't take Naruto, gve him to a badass like Grant and make him reinvent shonen genre. And since the big magazines & companies have no interest in changing the status quo, he would have to start as a nobody, battling countless other low-profile mangas... and worse, the rejection from a community that does not desire change.

Quite hard scenario, perhaps the time hasn't arrived yet, perhaps it has already gone... somehow I think that the last episode of rebuild of Evangelion may be a landmark in that sense, for better or worse, of the state that otaku industry is.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Detective Conan. What are they up to these days? 670 episodes?

Tell me about it, shit went beyond absurd a long time ago.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The truly astonishing part? This entire development was ultimately caused by an editor, Karen Berger, who was the one who wanted comics to take a giant leap and become something more than they were before.

That's what's missing in Japan, a strong man willing to take things beyond. Problem is that manga is harder, titles and authors are unseparable; you can't take Naruto, gve him to a badass like Grant and make him reinvent shonen genre. And since the big magazines & companies have no interest in changing the status quo, he would have to start as a nobody, battling countless other low-profile mangas... and worse, the rejection from a community that does not desire change.

Quite hard scenario, perhaps the time hasn't arrived yet, perhaps it has already gone... somehow I think that the last episode of rebuild of Evangelion may be a landmark in that sense, for better or worse, of the state that otaku industry is.

The part where it gets into incest territory is when you realize that the total symbiosis between a mangaka and his one-hit-wonder series is what fuels the circlejerk. Other people would clearly want to present their take on characters, but instead of actually doing it, they essentially go "well I'll create my own Naruto, with blackjack and hookers."

Another thing I find quite interesting is how rare it is for there to be a separate writer and artist for manga. I can't think of any famous examples besides Fist of the North Star. I find it quite peculiar, particularly because in my personal experience, having an artist to collaborate with is possibly the greatest asset a writer can get. Alan Moore, in his sole essay on writing comics, also comments on how great it is to have an artist to work with and how you the prospective writer should listen to and talk about ideas with your artist. And of course, it allows for further specialization. Both Alan Moore and Grant Morrison do concept art for their stories, but they know that when it comes down to it, they're the wordsmiths and guys who come up with the substance, while people like Dave Gibbons or Dave McKean can then render to an exciting visual form.

I guess this has to do with the ultimately expendable nature of the manga and the mangaka, how they exist as a single unit that is then discarded, with the mangaka hopelessly trying to recreate what once got him into brief spotlight.

 

[Haba]

Another thing I find quite interesting is how rare it is for there to be a separate writer and artist for manga. I can't think of any famous examples besides Fist of the North Star.

What? I can think of 100 examples.

Amaenaideyo!!, Battle Royale, Chobits, Crying Freeman, Death Note, Golgo 13, Pluto...

There is a distinct pattern for those works that separate the story and art though. And in general the whole industry is built around superstar artists who build up their name, empowered by nameless and faceless assistants who hope to one day do the same.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Like I've said, I'm no expert on manga, so I bow to your superior wisdom.

Incidentally, how does the whole assistant thing work?

 

[Cool name]

It is not my intention to offend anyone but I have to say the current discussion seems dangerously close to a group of blind people discussing a painting. That's all. Please forgive me if my lack of tact brings you any bother. I'll remove myself from the thread now.

 

[felipepepe]

It is not my intention to offend anyone but I have to say the current discussion seems dangerously close to a group of blind people discussing a painting. That's all. Please forgive me if my lack of tact brings you any bother. I'll remove myself from the thread now.

I'm not offended, just confused. o_O

Is not like we're talking about how horrible is to live in a flat planet, it's a cultural product and we're discussing our opinions & views on it. I'm very curious now to hear your take on all this, Agassi, and how it differs so much from ours. Don't remove yourself, elighten us.

The part where it gets into incest territory is when you realize that the total symbiosis between a mangaka and his one-hit-wonder series is what fuels the circlejerk. Other people would clearly want to present their take on characters, but instead of actually doing it, they essentially go "well I'll create my own Naruto, with blackjack and hookers."

Yeah, just imagine how many retarded american super-heroes there would be if no one could use Superman, Batman and the likes besides their original authors...

And in general the whole industry is built around superstar artists who build up their name, empowered by nameless and faceless assistants who hope to one day do the same.

Not sure how much of it is real, but I found Bakuman very interesting to help understand the industry. It's also a very unique title, the ideia that "a japanese manga about japaneses making mangas" sells all over the world is rather amusing.

Bakuman talks a lot about assistants, and they are mostly wannabe mangakas that help the artist, doing backgrounds, secondary characters, inking and all that. It's often told to be a very cruel job, with insane schedules, massive work hours and low pay. Some manage to break into stardom, like how One Piece author worked as asssitant on Samurai X... but such success is very rare.

 

[Haba]

It is not my intention to offend anyone but I have to say the current discussion seems dangerously close to a group of blind people discussing a painting. That's all. Please forgive me if my lack of tact brings you any bother. I'll remove myself from the thread now.

You're not nearly as knowledgeable as you like to think, BC. Occasional bit of humility wouldn't hurt.

 

[Cool name]

I am very sorry if it did seem I was claiming a deep knowledge of either manga or anime. My interest on such things is mostly passing.

My comment was on people who is extremely, and admirably, knowledgeable on a topic of their choice discussing the similarities and differences observable between this topic and another similarly complex and vast topic they have no invested as much love and effort trying to understand even when several linguistic and cultural barriers conspire to keep them away. Please forgive me if my choice of words make it seem my comment was self aggrandizing but my intention was to protect the discussion from at least a certain measure of intellectual dishonesty. I have no intention of taking part of this discussion beyond that.

That aside I will keep in mind what you said. Thank you for your time.

 

[felipepepe]

I'm aware that doing a serious research is mostly replacing prejudices with actual facts. I've seen vast ammounts of thesis and books where the author was only searching for ways to justify a idea he had before even reading about the subject, and his work never managed to go beyond "what I think about this"; so I find extremely interesting to hear opposing ideas. Debating with prestigious gentleman from all over the world as I have been doing here sure is helpfull, but a opposing voice is not unwelcome.

Even if BC says something I don't agree, I have to acknoledge that is an existing point-of-view, understand where it's comming from and see how it ressonates with the rest.

EDIT: Oh, ninja'ed.

Agassi, I get what you're saying because I saw it countless time on american works on the subject; they look at themselves, look at what they know about Japan, make retarded paralels and call it a day, saying stupidities like how Doraemon only works in Japan due cultural disparities, even when hermanos argentinos como usted aman a "El Gato Cósmico".

Besides, is not like I'm basing my entire research on what Vaarna feels about manga x comics, I'm only on a early stage, and hopefully I'll get my 2 years schollarship in Tokyo to expand it and understand "the other side", especially since my supervisors will be japaneses.

However, I do think those paralels are very important, there are cycles bound to repeat thenselves; delving into the patterns between previous cultural movements can provide many clues to understanding ongoing ones, as long as you are not blinded by them.