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Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #9: Challenge Modes and Godlike Races

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
24,924
"When we play TTRPGs, NPCs use social skills as a matter of course, especially against PCs they know to be vulnerable to manipulation. And our PCs don't just try to guard each other against that kind of manipulation, they employ it against each other as well. It's lots of fun, and beyond CRPGs never having done it I can't really think of a reason why they shouldn't try."

That's so dumb. PCs can't be intimidated or persuaded or doped through dialogue skills. Just like no sane Dm would allow a PC to intimidate a pit fiend just because of some silly die roll.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
3.5 DMG I think it was.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but that is so incredibly fucking stupid that I can't believe you. And I'm not sure I dare to check. I mean, what's next, making PCs immune to damage rolls?

.... Argh, the utter fucking stupidity of it is making my head hurt.

EDIT: Volly what if your PC happens to be subject to a Fear or Charm spell. Should your PC be immune to those too?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
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"DIT: Volly what if your PC happens to be subject to a Fear or Charm spell. Should your PC be immune to those too?"

It's a spell. Works differently.

PCs and uber tough monsters cannot be intimidated by mere dice rolls. Use your fukkin' common sense.

No matter how tough a PC is, a pit fiend should never be intimidated by a mere mortal. Nor should a PLAYER CHARACTER be intimidated persuaded by mere dice rolls.

That would like forcing a PC to pay 20 gold b/c some npc merchant succeeded at a skill check.

Do you even fukkin' know what skill checks are supposed to represent. Read. the fukkin. manual.
 

nihil

Augur
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Sweden
Project: Eternity
Expert mode sounds p. retarded. "This mode is for Experts, so we treat you like a casual and hide vital information"

No, he's talking about hiding things like thresholds for dialogue choices (to make it more like PS:T, where you don't see dialogue choices at all unless you have requisite stats)

This is a weird thing to have as a difficulty. It should be part of the game design, not a mode. Is the game meant to expose the player to this info or not? The next step would be to hide the HP bar as a difficulty level.

Well, as long as it doesn't mean "yes, there will be a quest compass, but you can turn it off", I'm happy.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
nihil and everybody else
Here are Josh Sawyer's posts on SA that are relevant to this: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post407877987

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001
00017931.0002.gif

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Flater posted:

I hope so badly that the dialogue system is a departure from things like Fallout:NV. It's terrible to enter dialogue and see the stupid little [Speech 33/50] thing. God forbid a dialogue check happens without you having immediate knowledge of it, it might just allow for an NPC to lie to you without you knowing.
Speech checks aren't used to see if an NPC can successfully lie to you. Also, we've already designed in the era of invisible stat checks. They lead to players believing that their statistics actually have no effect on conversations. They literally don't know what they're missing.

In Darklands' Expert mode, greyed out/unavailable options were completely removed. You'd enter an interaction screen and see one or two options, not realizing that there are a ton of other things you could do if you only knew this saint/had that potion/bumped that skill. It's great for people who've already played the game 10 times, but for other people, it removed the impression that those saints/potions/skills had utility outside of their normal systemic use.
rope kid fucked around with this message at Sep 24, 2012 around 21:56
# ¿ Sep 24, 2012 21:53

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001
00017931.0002.gif

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

SurrealityCheck posted:

Are you using that kind of speech model for P:E?
I'd like to look into options to disable messages of that sort (skill checks, attribute checks, reputation gain and loss), but in practice I think many people will either a) not use them or b) use them only for immersion purposes and metagame around their absence.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2012 21:59

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001
00017931.0002.gif

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.

Flater posted:

You have a unique opportunity here to do it and do it well instead of just going the easy route that removes immersion and promotes gaming the system.
It's not easier to write code to display every check and write alternate replies/nodes for every fail case. It's the opposite of easy.

Like I wrote, I don't have any objections to optionally turning things off, but I have no illusions about how most people actually play these games vs. how they say they want to play them. I've been watching them do it and dealing with the aftermath for ~13 years.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I need to partially retract what I've said ITT about how "Expert Mode" will work with regard to the dialogue skill checks. For some reason I was confident that it would work by entirely hiding skill checks that the player can't pass, but after giving the evidence a second glance, there's no basis for that.

It's not clear yet how it will work - whether dialogue options will be entirely hidden, or just the thresholds, or perhaps both.
 

nihil

Augur
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Messages
490
Location
Sweden
Project: Eternity
Infinitron

I think it would be better to emulate PnP in this case. Let the player know a skill check is being made (that he is using his skill), but mention no numbers and don't be overly clear whether is failed or succeeded.
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
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South Africa; My pronouns are: Banal/Shit/Boring
Divinity: Original Sin
I'm currently of the opinion that it needs to be a mixed system. In expert mode I'd want to 1) not be able to see dialogue choice grayed out when my character is incapable of making them (intelligence, wisdom, etcetera) and 2) be able to fail at dialogue choices that can clearly fail (persuasion, intimidation, etcetera). While 1) might lead to meta-gaming and searching for walkthrough, I actually fucking enjoy that - an enjoyment that's been robbed of me in recent game design.
 

Untermensch

Augur
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
280
Location
Croatia
The system I would like to see is to list all of the skill checks regardless of your skill, like this:

"blargh, blargh"

[Diplomacy] "blargh"
[Intimidate] "BLARGH!"

And after that no [Diplomacy failed]----, but make it visible through the dialogue: "no can't do" or some other shit.
And no [35/45].
 

Dorateen

Arcane
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Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
I suppose it's too much to wish for implementation of the Storm of Zehir party chat system. Dialogue options should appear based upon a multitude of character attributes, available depending on the composition of the party. And the player should get to select the one best suited to the situtaion. (And which companion speaks for the party.)

What was the point of developing this innovative conversation feature if they never use it in future cRPGs?

Harumph!
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
1,466
Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath
I hate all these casual skill/attribute tags. Shitty [TROLOLO 10/10] & [SUCCEED] things for suckers.

I also wish they bring back dice rolls for dialogs.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I suppose it's too much to wish for implementation of the Storm of Zehir party chat system. Dialogue options should appear based upon a multitude of character attributes, available depending on the composition of the party. And the player should get to select the one best suited to the situtaion. (And which companion speaks for the party.)

What was the point of developing this innovative conversation feature if they never use it in future cRPGs?

Harumph!

Actually, we're pretty sure they're going to use that in Wasteland 2.

Eternity is going to have a main character so it wouldn't fit.

Oh, and that "Harumph" is going to get you in trouble here one of these days. :M
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
This game is going to be great, but I can't help but feel that all of these stretch goals are meaningless and would have been in the game regardless. Oh well, whatever. They're doing well with marketing this shit and the more money the better.
It's just a dumb marketing technique. It seems to be working.

I'd prefer they just asked for 3 Million up front. It is what it is.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
This game is going to be great, but I can't help but feel that all of these stretch goals are meaningless and would have been in the game regardless. Oh well, whatever. They're doing well with marketing this shit and the more money the better.
It's just a dumb marketing technique. It seems to be working.

I'd prefer they just asked for 3 Million up front. It is what it is.
I think if they asked for 2 million upfront they would have got it, and would have had more total money right now. No way to prove it, but with how fast they got to 1.1, I think they would have made it.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I think so too-. I also think they'd have ended up with a LOT more money if they'd been frank about how much they'll need. If you look at these goals you can tell they need something 3 Million to even make the game they have in mind, and that's at a minimum.

I feel like the trusty IE fans would have been willing to drop quite a lot of money up front, especially if a lot of the details from the updates had been in the pitch so we can get a better idea of what they're going to make.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Messages
97,496
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Or, maybe they would have gotten LESS money from people piling onto the bandwagon to preorder after the game was a sure thing. If you're not sure, be conservative.

Hopefully somebody will try that approach someday so we can compare their performances.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
It's a spell. Works differently.

Right. I guess that's why, say, D&D monsters who're immune to fear are also immune to Fear spells, while PCs aren't. And hey, it must be why the designers decided to call it a Fear spell and not, say, Run Away For No Reason.

Fear, like anger and a lot of other human emotions, is a response to something. However the spell that induces such an emotion supposedly operates, and whatever system you're playing with, is besides the point.


PCs and uber tough monsters cannot be intimidated by mere dice rolls. Use your fukkin' common sense.

Picture our PC at the head of an army of 10,000 pissed off Balrogs, telling Sauron to get on his knees. You're really of the opinion that Sauron couldn't possibly be intimidated in that situation?
Now picture the roles of the PC & Sauron were reversed. Again you're really of the opinion that the PC couldn't possibly be intimidated?


No matter how tough a PC is, a pit fiend should never be intimidated by a mere mortal. Nor should a PLAYER CHARACTER be intimidated persuaded by mere dice rolls.

I don't disagree that it should be difficult for a mortal human being to come up with a way to intimidate an immortal daemon. But as long as the daemon in question isn't the super duper supreme divinity of all time and existence, it probably shouldn't be outright impossible. If it's possible for our daemon to get royally fucked in some manner, the mortal can ensure it happens, and our daemon is bright enough to understand the causal relationship, then there's an in-fiction reason the daemon shouldn't be immune to intimidation.

As for PCs... Why not? I ask because you've offered no reason PCs should be partially exempt from social conflicts, and the only reason I can think of is that it potentially forces PCs to act in character in situations where their players would rather act out of character. Which, at least to me, isn't a bad thing at all.


That would like forcing a PC to pay 20 gold b/c some npc merchant succeeded at a skill check.

Again, why would that be a bad thing? Isn't it appropriate that naive sucker PCs behave like naive suckers?
What about if we were talking pickpocketing instead, should PCs be immune to that?
What about an NPC beating a PC with a Befuddle Check vs. a hostile wizard NPC casting Paralyse on a PC vs. a hostile gladiator catching a PC in a net?

From where I sit, treating PCs differently in one situation is to introduce jarring inconsistency for the sake of... Well, I have no idea.


Do you even fukkin' know what skill checks are supposed to represent. Read. the fukkin. manual.

I suspect you meant to ask something else, but yes. The check represents everything that can go right and wrong during the use of a skill. Major elements typically take the form of fixed values, while minor and rare elements are typically represented by a dice roll. The combined result is used to determine which of a number of possible outcomes has occurred. Of course, this is the basic concept. Individual RPGs run in all sorts of directions with it.

Considering I don't play D&D and never intend to, I think my knowledge of the various editions of the system is pretty impressive. And I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable of me not to want to read any D&D manuals. More, I fail to see how D&D is any more or less relevant to discussions of Project Eternity's social skill mechanics than every other TTRPG system under the Sun.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Players don't like to lose control.

They really don't like to lose control because their character is supposed to have some emotional response they don't have.

They really really don't like this lose of control to last for a long time.


Fear or Charm Person lasts a couple rounds of combat and then it's done. This is not nearly the same as a dialog that leads to your character deciding something that you as a player hasn't.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
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Messages
4,370
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The Crystal Mist Mountains
I suppose it's too much to wish for implementation of the Storm of Zehir party chat system. Dialogue options should appear based upon a multitude of character attributes, available depending on the composition of the party. And the player should get to select the one best suited to the situtaion. (And which companion speaks for the party.)

What was the point of developing this innovative conversation feature if they never use it in future cRPGs?

Harumph!

Actually, we're pretty sure they're going to use that in Wasteland 2.

Eternity is going to have a main character so it wouldn't fit.

Understood. But as a point of interest, in the Baldur's Gate games, which also had a Main Character, custom party members could initiate and even be referenced in dialogues with world NPCs.

I'm curious how Obsidian is going to handle this mechanic. What will happen when a party companion is used to click on a merchant or the Important NPC in town? Because the whole warping the Main PC to the front of the line was just ridiculous in NWN2.

Good to hear about Wasteland 2, though.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
97,496
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I suppose it's too much to wish for implementation of the Storm of Zehir party chat system. Dialogue options should appear based upon a multitude of character attributes, available depending on the composition of the party. And the player should get to select the one best suited to the situtaion. (And which companion speaks for the party.)

What was the point of developing this innovative conversation feature if they never use it in future cRPGs?

Harumph!

Actually, we're pretty sure they're going to use that in Wasteland 2.

Eternity is going to have a main character so it wouldn't fit.

Understood. But as a point of interest, in the Baldur's Gate games, which also had a Main Character, custom party members could initiate and even be referenced in dialogues with world NPCs.

I'm curious how Obsidian is going to handle this mechanic. What will happen when a party companion is used to click on a merchant or the Important NPC in town? Because the whole warping the Main PC to the front of the line was just ridiculous in NWN2.

Good to hear about Wasteland 2, though.

Hmm, maybe I'll try to ask Josh Sawyer about this on his Formspring.
 

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