Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #22: Q&A with Tim, Cooking?, and Avellone Trolls You!

[Mrowak]

Bro, this is something they *have to* present to a publisher. You'd think that with such risky campaigns as Kickstarter they would treat their audience with greater respect, and provide even more info, considering how they hate the publishers.

That's not entirely similar. When they go to a publisher, they say "i want to make a game with x-y-z features, give me money". While at KS, they say "we have a base concept, give us money to make it. if you give x ammount we do feature a, if you give y ammount, we do a+b, if you give z ammount, we do a+b+c+"

And how does the new model preclude this particular requirement from the old one, exactly?

The vibe I am getting here is: "let's turn to people for funding because they won't ask inconvenient questions (like 'what exactly are you going to do with my bloody money')?"

I don't know why do you think that devs are "evil". I may be a little optimistic, but I think they ask money because they can make a niche game with it. Which they couldn't do without KS.

I don't think they are evil. They are good chaps, enthusiastic about their work. But as all people they are susceptible not to see their failings and attribute them to someone else ('evil publishers' - certainly they are to blame as well, but not e.g. for bugs or poor combat engine). Because they are only human who can fail, they should realise that and be realistic about the goal they are trying to reach, e.g by preparing a real plan. Yeah, with the exception of Tim Cain they strike me as a little bit too irresponsible.

 

[J_C]

Yeah, with the exception of Tim Cain they strike me as a little bit too irresponsible.

*Shrugs* We don't know that. It is possible that they will do everything they promised, and prove that they are not irresponsible. Time will tell.

Anyway, I enjoyed this argument, but this isn't going anywhere. I'm off. I have a lot of accounting to do at work.

 

[Mrowak]

Yeah, with the exception of Tim Cain they strike me as a little bit too irresponsible.

*Shrugs* We don't know that. It is possible that they will do everything they promised, and prove that they are not irresponsible. Time will tell.

And in a project of this scope we should know exactly that, right? But we do not.

Anyway, I enjoyed this argument, but this isn't going anywhere. I'm off. I have a lot of accounting to do at work.

I feel you pain, bro. Take care.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Come on This is system based on trust as Obsidian made some games in past and some of them were good or even That GOOD which means there is large propability they will deliver this time especially if PE turned to be shit will means only no second chance for them on KS and slaving for Big 4 at best or shity phone games as worse case scenario so they have initiative to do the right thing this time. Don't forget that KS is only form of pre for consumers order and unlike paying taxes nobody force you to participate, while as Devs come this is good way to advertise their products so they're the ones risking more here. So chance of Brian or MCA running away with Jewgold are nil while there is no guarantee whatsever with Big Publisher they will release good game (Quite to contrary as they're interested in big mass markets only)

KOA was better action game that Titles from Biowhore and Bethpizda on this I Brofist Mastermind....Action game which not force you to LARP Hobo Dumpster diver and thus doesn't crash every 15 minutes and is playble straight from the box without waiting for 15 patches and gigabytes of mods is great in my book.
The story although bit cliche is not cringe worthy and faction quests are best since Morrowind. This game would be better without level scaling though, Hate when Unique legendery loot turns to be junk only cause your PC gains XP.

 

[Mrowak]

Come on This is system based on trust as Obsidian made some games in past and some of them were good or even That GOOD which means there is large propability they will deliver this time especially if PE turned to be shit will means only no second chance for them on KS and slaving for Big 4 at best or shity phone games as worse case scenario so they have initiative to do the right thing this time. Don't forget that KS is only form of pre for consumers order and unlike paying taxes nobody force you to participate, while as Devs come this is good way to advertise their products so they're the ones risking more here.

I know they are enthusiastic. I do not question their motives. But motivation and goodwill without proper planning often means shit. You may have best intentions in the world, but still fail because the work that you thought would take 2 days, takes 6, or because that due to bad workload management while half of your team slaves their asses having missed the deadline, the other cannot work because they have nothing to work on (and you cannot transfer employess because team A works on art assets and team B are programmers). I really saw and heard of projects failing despite of all the best intentions of the people working on them.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Yes we all know this, but there is no way we can force better management on Obsidian, this why I say take atleast 3 years to be sure the game will be completed.
And I can't loose the feeling VD is cause he could raise 10 times more jewgold from Kickstarter than from his own preorder.... To late now with Demo released and game being anounced to be almost completed since 2011. Unless he will anounce remake with party based combat and gameplay like SOZ :D

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Eagerly waiting for my race traitor tag.

 

[Mrowak]

Yes we all know this, but there is no way we can force better management on Obsidian, this why I say take atleast 3 years to be sure the game will be completed.

That's why claim that the entire Kickstarter formula is flawed, and it's bound to fail sooner or later. I am very disappointed by the approach they took in the campaign. It wasn't at all different from what publishers do with their adverts, only when you buy an preorder you usually have an idea what the game will play like - at least to a greater ddegree than with PE.

Also what happened to 18 months they promised? How did they grow into 3 years?

 

[Commissar Draco]

Yes we all know this, but there is no way we can force better management on Obsidian, this why I say take atleast 3 years to be sure the game will be completed.

That's why claim that the entire Kickstarter formula is flawed, and it's bound to fail sooner or later. I am very disappointed by the approach they took in the campaign. It wasn't at all different from what publishers do with their adverts, only when you buy an preorder you usually have an idea what the game will play like - at least to a greater ddegree than with PE.

Also what happened to 18 months they promised? How did they grow into 3 years?

New IP they invented 3 days before kickstarter done on new Engine in 18 months? It is not Fallout2, MOTB, KOTOR II or FNV. On this I agree with VD they have no chance to pull 18 months deadline and I prefer to play the complete game with proper balance, polish and no cutt content this time, hence the optimistic 3 years.

 

[Mrowak]

Yes we all know this, but there is no way we can force better management on Obsidian, this why I say take atleast 3 years to be sure the game will be completed.

That's why claim that the entire Kickstarter formula is flawed, and it's bound to fail sooner or later. I am very disappointed by the approach they took in the campaign. It wasn't at all different from what publishers do with their adverts, only when you buy an preorder you usually have an idea what the game will play like - at least to a greater ddegree than with PE.

Also what happened to 18 months they promised? How did they grow into 3 years?

New IP they invented 3 days before kickstarter done on new Engine in 18 months? It is not Fallout2, MOTB, KOTOR II or FNV. On this I agree with VD they have no chance to pull 18 months deadline and I prefer to play the complete game with proper balance, polish and no cutt content this time, hence the optimistic 3 years.

So they are "economical" with the truth? How can this be?! But they promised 18 months +/ slight delay.

See this is exactly the point I was trying to make? They are vague and really come across as irresponsible. They promise a lot but have nothing to back it up. Anyone with half a brain can see how unrealistic the goals they set themselves are. So can we really trust them?

 

[Infinitron]

I know they are enthusiastic. I do not question their motives. But motivation and goodwill without proper planning often means shit. You may have best intentions in the world, but still fail because the work that you thought would take 2 days, takes 6, or because that due to bad workload management while half of your team slaves their asses having missed the deadline, the other cannot work because they have nothing to work on (and you cannot transfer employess because team A works on art assets and team B are programmers). I really saw and heard of projects failing despite of all the best intentions of the people working on them.

And I'm sure that the sheer stress of having to expose all their plans and data to MROWAK, world-famous management guru to the stars, will cause them to step up their game and rescue the project from failure!

 

[ironyuri]

Mrowak

I think we can trust them. Obsidian is a proven RPG development house, with the programming talent that has brought us most of the games we continue to play/love, 15+ years later.

Trusting them to produce the game isn't the issue, I don't think. It's trusting them to be open and honest about how our money is being spent. They will make a game, it will fit roughly to the vision statement they gave at the outset of the campaign. It will probably be a 2D Isometric style game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate 2 (and its never-realised sequel the Black Hound) with RTwP combat and a well written narrative and passable gameplay mechanics. I trust them to produce that.

But since they are using my money to make the game, and I'm not just a customer finding their game on a shelf post-facto, I would trust them as a developer a hell-of-a lot more if they present some kind of development schedule highlighting proposed milestones and a path to producing the game by April 2014 that will allow for optimal content-substance-quality. A completion plan, with regular progress reports (quarterly) would go a long way toward buttressing faith in the kickstarter system as a means of patronising a studio in order for them to produce a game vaguely in the style of the vision statement they present before any money has changed hands.

 

[Commissar Draco]

It is not like we have big choice now, with big 4 Publishers gunning for better selling Skyrim clone as their Holy Grail. Hoped that fiasco of DA2 and KOA would make them learn something about making products more tallored to smaller market segments but suits, suits never change.

 

[J_C]

New IP they invented 3 days before kickstarter done on new Engine in 18 months? It is not Fallout2, MOTB, KOTOR II or FNV. On this I agree with VD they have no chance to pull 18 months deadline and I prefer to play the complete game with proper balance, polish and no cutt content this time, hence the optimistic 3 years.

Nah. I expect a few month delay but nothing near 3 years. Backers would rage if there would be so much delay, when they promised 18 months. With no publisher meddling with the design process, they can pull it off . Max 2 years, but they are really stretching it by then.

 

[ironyuri]

Grimoire, 17 years. Project Eternity 17 months. Which is better and why, discuss!!

 

[Mrowak]

Mrowak

I think we can trust them. Obsidian is a proven RPG development house, with the programming talent that has brought us most of the games we continue to play/love, 15+ years later.

Trusting them to produce the game isn't the issue, I don't think. It's trusting them to be open and honest about how our money is being spent. They will make a game, it will fit roughly to the vision statement they gave at the outset of the campaign. It will probably be a 2D Isometric style game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate 2 (and its never-realised sequel the Black Hound) with RTwP combat and a well written narrative and passable gameplay mechanics. I trust them to produce that.

But since they are using my money to make the game, and I'm not just a customer finding their game on a shelf post-facto, I would trust them as a developer a hell-of-a lot more if they present some kind of development schedule highlighting proposed milestones and a path to producing the game by April 2014 that will allow for optimal content-substance-quality. A completion plan, with regular progress reports (quarterly) would go a long way toward buttressing faith in the kickstarter system as a means of patronising a studio in order for them to produce a game vaguely in the style of the vision statement they present before any money has changed hands.

Let's put it this way: I trust that they'll give their best shot. I don't trust them when it comes to organistation and management (because apparently the schedule and regular reports are too mouch to ask). And I have doubts if they can pull off a game with truly engaging gameplay (maybe now that Tim and Josh are on board they'll finally get their shit together).

 

[Jasede]

Yay, finally Obsidian is free from the shackles of a publisher!

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Obsidian, we demand quarterly progress reports and regular investor's meetings, as well as a revised budget post haste! After all you'd never be able to publ-, sorry, create PE without us!

 

[FeelTheRads]

In before fans are to blame for PE's failure.

 

[Jaesun]

In before fans are to blame for PE's failure.

Unlike BioWare, they listen to their fans the RIGHT way. The same way they did back in the old BIS days.

 

[Mrowak]

Yay, finally Obsidian is free from the shackles of a publisher!

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Obsidian, we demand quarterly progress reports and regular investor's meetings, as well as a revised budget post haste! After all you'd never be able to publ-, sorry, create PE without us!

:Facepalm:

Way to miss the point. It's all about transparency reasons, and proving to the consumers that indeed they can manage the project, as opposed to fanboyish "In Obsidian we trust". The shackles part were about publishers having a say at every point and changing good games into popamole. No one's demanding that the fans have a say, just that they are explained EXACTLY *what* they are going to get and *how* it will happen.

But yay, strawman!

 

[Jasede]

It's not; as soon as you demand feedback there'll be criticism thereof.

 

[Jaesun]

I kind of hope they will do something similar to what the Shadowrun guys are doing. Those QA sessions are pretty cool.

 

[Mrowak]

It's not; as soon as you demand feedback there'll be criticism thereof.

Did I say I want it after the real project begins (which I actually think is a good idead and at this point is the very least they could do) or did I criticis that no plan was given from the start of the campaign (because they didn't have it)? If everyone knew exactly what the project is about from the start there wouldn't be any significant complaints. Hell, if thay had a clear vision of what they are trying to do they can largely ignore the whining and focus on doing their job!

Also, by not providing any plan they opened themselves to criticism like never before. Suck it up, princess! You wanted crowdfounding route with nothing concrete to say, then expect that people will whine, regardless of what you do. Wait till the beta opens - with so much vagueness, so much promising (it will have story of Planescape and comba tof BG2 only better!). Man, it will be glorious.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And I can't loose the feeling VD is butthurt cause he could raise 10 times more jewgold from Kickstarter than from his own preorder....

If I cared that much about money I wouldn't have quit my job. Or made a game with less text and more action.

New IP they invented 3 days before kickstarter done on new Engine in 18 months? It is not Fallout2, MOTB, KOTOR II or FNV. On this I agree with VD they have no chance to pull 18 months deadline and I prefer to play the complete game with proper balance, polish and no cutt content this time, hence the optimistic 3 years.

Nah. I expect a few month delay but nothing near 3 years. Backers would rage if there would be so much delay, when they promised 18 months. With no publisher meddling with the design process, they can pull it off . Max 2 years, but they are really stretching it by then.

Do you really believe that publishers meddling doubles the development time? Take MotB, for example. They started working on it in July 2006, the game was released in Oct 2007. It was an expansion using a ready engine with all systems (character, combat, magic, crafting, inventory, journal, etc) and many assets. PE is a brand new, very ambitious (from the description and stretch goals) game. It looks like the KS is gonna hit 3.5 mil, so we're looking at two "big, big" cities, which are tons of work.

Pray that they don't release it in 18 months.

 

[Infinitron]

Also, by not providing any plan they opened themselves to criticism like never before.

Mrowak, even if they provide a plan, the vast majority will not be able to understand it or just won't read it. There will always be butthurt. Always.