Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #22: Q&A with Tim, Cooking?, and Avellone Trolls You!

[Vault Dweller]

Quick morning #ProjectEternity PayPal update: $79,946
codex, sorcerers, gb ~ 10 000
ks at 3m 22 000

so 388 000 to go.

Should be doable. The closer they get to it, the stronger the last-minute backing frenzy will be.

 

[J_C]

J_C, sorry but you are turning into a fanboy who misses the point. The did was done, PE is bound to be funded, but the larger issue remains. This model just un-safe, fallible and bound to be exploited. Projects cannot operate of faith alone, especially projects of this callibre. There were many projects that had many talented people working on them which simply failed because enthusiasm is often not enough. Projects, above everything else need careful planning and budgets, enthusiasm comes only after everything else.

I admit that Obsidian succeeded at generating hype - they caught me there and made me fund the venture. I really hope they will succeed, because they are decent chaps, and I really want to play a good RPG. Having said that, from the pure business standpoint there's a lot to be concerned about. The company in question does not give anything concrete - it is really not professional to treat people with such margeting but fail to produce facts. Please, remind me J_C when was the last time any developer fulfilled vague promises such as they have now? Because, afaik Obsidian failed at realising them in every game - which is a fact and generally not a point in their favour. You can say: "it's the evil publishers", but it isn't a fact - there's no guarantee it is really the case.

Bottom line: if this way of gathering funds for AA games is to survive as a model, they should do much better job than what we are witnessing.

I admit I am a fanboy when it comes to Obsidian, but not this time. I think that what you suggest is not easily done and it is not public information. What do you want exactly? A development schedule? How could they have a schedule during the kickstarter, when everything is so volatile? I think having 1million dollars means that they have to do less work, because the game won't be as ambitious. And what if they would give you a schedule? What would you do with it? Would you want them to provide you some evidence that they reached the milestones? How? Do you want an invitation to the studio to look it yourself? Should they invite 60. 000 backer to the studio. Or do you want early builds of the game as evidence? Do you want them to make it available to every backer? Of course this would mean that the pre-alpha build would be available to everyone on the internet. Do you want a written report about their progress? Of course that is private data, and making it available on the internet would be a bummer. You should probably sign an NDA contract. Do you want that? Do the backers want that? And what if they don't reach a milestone in time? What will you do, demand your money? Cancel the project? Every backer should make a contract then. There are so many questions.

Look, if you want to monitor them closely, work at a publisher. Those have strict contracts with the developers about everything. Kickstarter is a crowdfunding modell, which works well for some time now. There have been failed projects in the past, and I'm sure that there will be. Yet, KS is alive.

But, to provide you some relief, KS is already working on stricter terms of use:
http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/blog/morning_call/2012/09/kickstarter-tightens-creator-terms.html
http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store?page=2

Seriously, I admit that there might be stricter regulations, but over-regulations would kill KS. Developers would be held back by backers just like they are held back by publishers. And than say goodbye to your niche games and enjoy the popamole games done by publishers.

 

[Mastermind]

Also, there are way too many fucking RandRoid Libertards on Codex, apparently, who have no idea what fucking oversight is. Capitalists are not friendly people who take your money and make you money, they are fucking Bernie Madoff and the producers of Kingdoms of Amalur. Give them free money without oversight, say good bye to your fucking money.

Kingdoms of Amalur was a great game. I should get around to playing it again sometime.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You give 100 people money, some of them will do something decent with them. Does it prove anything about the system? No. It will only show that some people had the ability to do something with the money. A good business model it's not.

Good business model? Maybe not. A business model that people will immediately abandon in rage if one project fails? Definitely not.

Of course not. Selling dreams is a good business to be at. We are talking about the model itself here and what effect it will have on the industry.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, there are way too many fucking RandRoid Libertards on Codex, apparently, who have no idea what fucking oversight is. Capitalists are not friendly people who take your money and make you money, they are fucking Bernie Madoff and the producers of Kingdoms of Amalur. Give them free money without oversight, say good bye to your fucking money.

Kingdoms of Amalur was a great game. I should get around to playing it again sometime.

It was a poorly designed action shit, but yeah, you should get around to playing it again sometime.

 

[Infinitron]

You give 100 people money, some of them will do something decent with them. Does it prove anything about the system? No. It will only show that some people had the ability to do something with the money. A good business model it's not.

Good business model? Maybe not. A business model that people will immediately abandon in rage if one project fails? Definitely not.

Of course not. Selling dreams is a good business to be at. We are talking about the model itself here and what effect it will have on the industry.

Glad to hear you agree with me. Because even people in the business like Chris Avellone have publicly bellyached about what will happen when the first Kickstarter project fails. Instead of considering what effect the success of his project will have on the Kickstarter business model. Maybe he's just modest.

 

[Mrowak]

Seriously, I admit that there might be stricter regulations, but over-regulations would kill KS. Developers would be held back by backers just like they are held back by publishers. And than say goodbye to your niche games and enjoy the popamole games done by publishers.

Do we demand a say in every gameplay design decision? No! We just want to know what we are standing on, and how serious developers are about the project. We want them to prove us they can deliver - hard numbers, facts, and not the fluff which means nothing and has no bearing of the project's prospects. Knowing how they are going to achieve all that in 18 months is one very rudimentary information we could use.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Infinitron

What effect the success of his project will have? I'll tell you. Everyone who's ever worked on an RPG in any capacity will crawl out from under whatever stone they've been all these years, like Brenda, for example, and say "Me too! I too am gonna make an awesome RPG! Hell, I'll make two! Three even! Buy two, get the third one for free!" Kickstarter is gonna be a very busy place.

What's that? Brenda's KS will fail? Yes, it will. But she got 235k so far. So, unless she's really fucking dumb, she will make another KS and ask for, I dunno, 235k (and probably get more because this time she will have more pretty pictures and the excitement of hitting the goal will drive the donations up).

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron

What effect the success of his project will have? I'll tell you. Everyone who's ever worked on an RPG in any capacity will crawl out from under whatever stone they've been all these years, like Brenda, for example, and say "Me too! I too am gonna make an awesome RPG! Hell, I'll make two! Three even! Buy two, get the third one for free!" Kickstarter is gonna be a very busy place.

What's that? Brenda's KS will fail? Yes, it will. But she got 235k so far. So, unless she's really fucking dumb, she will make another KS and ask for, I dunno, 235k (and probably get more because this time she will have more pretty pictures and the excitement of hitting the goal will drive the donations up).

First of all, Brenda's project has come BEFORE the release of any major Kickstarter project. I'm not talking about the success of a fundraiser, I'm talking about the success of a released product.

Second, you are of course only looking at the negatives. Once again, if Obsidian releases a kickass game, a new Baldur's Gate 2, then that will be an incontrovertible proof that yes, Kickstarter can produce incredible games that nothing else can.

The power of that fact cannot be underestimated!

 

[Vault Dweller]

sigh

It will be an incontrovertible proof that Obsidian can produce incredible games, not Kickstarter.

 

[J_C]

We want them to prove us they can deliver - hard numbers, facts, and not the fluff which means nothing and has no bearing of the project's prospects.

Please tell me exactly what would you like to see from Obsidian regarding this KS?

sigh

It will be an incontrovertible proof that Obsidian can produce incredible games, not Kickstarter.

But it will prove that they can aquire money for it through KS.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It requires proof?

 

[Infinitron]

sigh

It will be an incontrovertible proof that Obsidian can produce incredible games, not Kickstarter.

But only via Kickstarter. Which means that any point, another developer with sufficient credentials could plausibly step in and say "Hey, we're gonna do this too".

If company X produces a great RPG that sells well, that doesn't just prove that company X can produce a great RPG that sells well. It also proves that RPGs can sell well in general.

 

[Jasede]

Why go through KS, though? You could just have a fundraiser at your company's website or something and keep the KS cut to yourself.

 

[Mrowak]

Second, you are of course only looking at the negatives. Once again, if Obsidian releases a kickass game, a new Baldur's Gate 2, then that will be an incontrovertible proof that yes, Kickstarter can produce incredible games that nothing else can.

The power of that fact cannot be underestimated!

Dude, look at the real world. It's enough for one business venture to fail to generate tremendous number of unrest around deregulated business models, which forces all manner of constraints to be put around.

Also there's too much "ifs" in your arguments. With a real deal project they should be "whens".

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why go through KS, though? You could just have a fundraiser at your company's website or something and keep the KS cut to yourself.

Payment processing costs money. KS' cut is reasonable.

 

[Mrowak]

We want them to prove us they can deliver - hard numbers, facts, and not the fluff which means nothing and has no bearing of the project's prospects.

Please tell me exactly what would you like to see from Obsidian regarding this KS?

Budget for the the minimal funding amount with a timeline. Vision document with concrete features in the basic game. List of used technologies readily available to the developer and to be purchased with the acquired money. Number of employees involved in the basic project and the sum of their salaries spread over time. Additionally for every stretch goal how it will factor in the timeline and how much money it will take.

 

[Infinitron]

Dude, look at the real world. It's enough for one business venture to fail to generate tremendous number of unrest around deregulated business models, which forces all manner of constraints to be put around.

Also there's too much "ifs" in your arguments. With a real deal project they should be "whens".

I am looking at the real world, you're the one who's talking about what ought to be.

Sapiens can't into my melonhead understanding of the psychology of the masses.

 

[Jaesun]

Why go through KS, though? You could just have a fundraiser at your company's website or something and keep the KS cut to yourself.

Payment processing costs money. KS' cut is reasonable.

Indeed. And also provides servers that don't crash.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But only via Kickstarter. Which means that any point, another developer with sufficient credentials could plausibly step in and say "Hey, we're gonna do this too".

Is it not what's happening now? What, there is someone who didn't jump on the bandwagon yet? Even the guys who did the Sword of Fargoal have crawled out of retirement. Who's left? Bethesda? Bioware?

Todd: "We've always like old school RPG and worked on such classics as Arena and Daggerfall. Unfortunately, evil publishers have put me under a bucket spell..."

The doctors: "Old school? Who's more old school then us, the creators of Baldur's Gate?! All we wanted is to make more old school games but the publishers have blinded us with millions of dollars and dreams of massively multiplayer old school games..."

If company X produces a great RPG that sells well, that doesn't just prove that company X can produce a great RPG that sells well. It also proves that RPGs can sell well in general.

And? Didn't BG sell 3 mil combined 10 years ago? Do you think that there is a fucking chance in hell that PE will sell 3 mil copies?

 

[Mrowak]

Dude, look at the real world. It's enough for one business venture to fail to generate tremendous number of unrest around deregulated business models, which forces all manner of constraints to be put around.

Also there's too much "ifs" in your arguments. With a real deal project they should be "whens".

I am looking at the real world, you're the one who's talking about what ought to be.

Sapiens can't into my melonhead understanding of the psychology of the masses.

Bro, I know how people think, therefore I understand the pehomenon in front of my eyes. And I don't like it exactly because it turns people into mindless sheeple. I thought that exactly because sheeple are mindless we cannot have any more good things from AAA developers, right? So why even make the same mistake all over again i.e. let ourselves be turned into sheeple?

 

[Infinitron]

But only via Kickstarter. Which means that any point, another developer with sufficient credentials could plausibly step in and say "Hey, we're gonna do this too".

Is it not what's happening now? What, there is someone who didn't jump on the bandwagon yet? Even the guys who did the Sword of Fargoal have crawled out of retirement. Who's left? Bethesda? Bioware?

Todd: "We've always like old school RPG and worked on such classics as Arena and Daggerfall. Unfortunately, evil publishers have put me under a bucket spell..."

The doctors: "Old school? Who's more old school then us, creators of Baldur's Gate?! All we wanted is to make more old school games but the publishers have blinded us with millions of dollars and dreams of massively multiplayer old school games..."

What does that have to do with anything?

If company X produces a great RPG that sells well, that doesn't just prove that company X can produce a great RPG that sells well. It also proves that RPGs can sell well in general.

And? Didn't BG sold 3 mil combined 10 years ago? Do you think that there is a fucking chance in hell that PE will sell 3 mil copies?

BG took many years to sell that many copies. I believe PE could one million copies within a year of release. Quite possibly more.

 

[Infinitron]

Bro, I know how people think, therefore I understand the pehomenon in front of my eyes. And I don't like it exactly because it turns people into mindless sheeple. I thought that exactly because sheeple are mindless we cannot have any more good things from AAA developers, right? So why even make the same mistake all over again i.e. let ourselves be turned into sheeple?

These sheeple are a bit less mindless. Unlike the general population, they want games that are actually good, but they still aren't interested in the business of game-making.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But only via Kickstarter. Which means that any point, another developer with sufficient credentials could plausibly step in and say "Hey, we're gonna do this too".

Is it not what's happening now? What, there is someone who didn't jump on the bandwagon yet? Even the guys who did the Sword of Fargoal have crawled out of retirement. Who's left? Bethesda? Bioware?

Todd: "We've always like old school RPG and worked on such classics as Arena and Daggerfall. Unfortunately, evil publishers have put me under a bucket spell..."

The doctors: "Old school? Who's more old school then us, creators of Baldur's Gate?! All we wanted is to make more old school games but the publishers have blinded us with millions of dollars and dreams of massively multiplayer old school games..."

What does that have to do with anything?

/patiently/ You said that if PE succeeds, another developer with sufficient credentials might step forward, as if there is an army of them out there, waiting for an opportunity to make an awesome RPG.

If company X produces a great RPG that sells well, that doesn't just prove that company X can produce a great RPG that sells well. It also proves that RPGs can sell well in general.

And? Didn't BG sold 3 mil combined 10 years ago? Do you think that there is a fucking chance in hell that PE will sell 3 mil copies?

BG took many years to sell that many copies.

My point is that BG was a proven success from day one, which nobody denied, yet it didn't result in more games like BG.

Edit:

I believe PE could one million copies within a year of release. Quite possibly more.

Based on what?

 

[Mrowak]

Bro, I know how people think, therefore I understand the pehomenon in front of my eyes. And I don't like it exactly because it turns people into mindless sheeple. I thought that exactly because sheeple are mindless we cannot have any more good things from AAA developers, right? So why even make the same mistake all over again i.e. let ourselves be turned into sheeple?

These sheeple are a bit less mindless. Unlike the general population, they want games that are actually good, but they still aren't interested in the business of game-making.

Your conjecture. I can bet any money that when PE is released and it turns out to be shit there will be scores of fanboys defending it as the second awesomest thing sice sliced bread if only to protect their ego - i.e. sheeple as mindless as those of bioware fame.

And if they are not interested then that's no problem - they can listen to marketing all they want, and leave the important info for others who do care. At the very least, in the end even sheeple will be able to tell there were grounds for the legitimacy of the undertaking.

Infiltron, it is obvious to me that you cannot tell the difference between marketing and actual content. The environment ought to be such that the content is more important because you put your real dollars into something which does not exist.