Development Info Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #41: Dwarves and Doors (and a complete lack of proofreading)

[Delterius]

Wait, the resurrection at the end of combat isn't automatic?

It is. Well, "waking up from unconsciousness" at the end of a battle if you've run out of stamina is.

It's analogous to being forced to spend a resurrection or raise dead spell at the end of a battle in the IE games.

It actually doesn't sound analogous to any resource cost because there's no cost involved. I don't think you're supposed to heal Health in the middle of a adventure and Stamina is coming back anyway.

And, sorry, I read your post as if you were telling people to larp away whatever they didn't like. Too many hours spent on the BSN.

 

[Infinitron]

It actually doesn't sound analogous to any resource cost because there's no cost involved.

The cost is the amount of health you lost when you got yourself "killed" (ran out of stamina) in the first place. You just pay it in advance - before the actual moment of "resurrection".

 

[Delterius]

It actually doesn't sound analogous to any resource cost because there's no cost involved.

The cost is the amount of health you lost when you got yourself "killed" (ran out of stamina) in the first place. You just pay it in advance - before the actual moment of "resurrection".

Actually, I think its the opposite.


Health isn't supposed to be easily healed. Meaning that you're only fucked if you lose too much Health so that advancing is too hard (since, as I recall, Health is also lost in a smaller ratio to Stamina in common combat), which means that its on the long-term. Whereas dying in the IE games was a immediate concern.

 

[Infinitron]

Health isn't supposed to be easily healed. Meaning that you're only fucked if you lose too much Health so that advancing is too hard (since, as I recall, Health is also lost in a smaller ratio to Stamina in common combat), which means that its on the long-term. Whereas dying in the IE games was a immediate concern.

My point is, if you've gone and run out of stamina in a battle, and fallen unconscious, you also just lost a lot of health in the process - 1/4th (or whatever) of the amount of your total stamina.

In effect, that's also the cost of waking up/"resurrecting" at the end of the battle. Paid in advance.

 

[tuluse]

Yes, your health is analogous to your store of healing and resurrection spells in an IE game. It's the same basic mechanic but, well, streamlined, to use the strict definition of that word.

You can lose health without ever getting incapacitated.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, your health is analogous to your store of healing and resurrection spells in an IE game. It's the same basic mechanic but, well, streamlined, to use the strict definition of that word.

You can lose health without ever getting incapacitated.

Yes, but if you lose health, you must also have lost stamina. The amount of health lost is the "cost" of regenerating that stamina back. Paid in advance - just like waking up from unconsciousness. Your health, in Infinity Engine terms, is like an abstract store of healing and resurrection spells.

 

[Delterius]

Health isn't supposed to be easily healed. Meaning that you're only fucked if you lose too much Health so that advancing is too hard (since, as I recall, Health is also lost in a smaller ratio to Stamina in common combat), which means that its on the long-term. Whereas dying in the IE games was a immediate concern.

My point is, if you've gone and run out of stamina in a battle, and fallen unconscious, you also just lost a lot of health in the process - 1/4th (or whatever) of the amount of your total stamina.

In effect, that's also the cost of waking up/"resurrecting" at the end of the battle. Paid in advance.

Not really, unless the loss of health incurs some penalty to that particular character - which is unlikely and even then wouldn't be the same as losing a character mid-adventure.

What happens if you run out of Health though?

 

[Mrowak]

It is. Well, "waking up from unconsciousness" at the end of a battle if you've run out of stamina is.

It's analogous to being forced to spend a resurrection or raise dead spell at the end of a battle in the IE games.

Not really because you still lose health.

Yes, your health is analogous to your store of healing and resurrection spells in an IE game. It's the same basic mechanic but, well, streamlined, to use the strict definition of that word.

Healing I can understand. But resurrection? Resurrection should be like the last resort and should involve *significant* sacrifice on the part of the player. Lack of death means lack of depth in the encounter. Instead of going, "oh shit, oh shit, they are going to murder me" you just shrug it off. In other words combat encounters are inconsequetial, especially those against weaker creatures. Unless - of course - they will balance the encounters towards damaging health instead of stamina. But somehow I cannot see how they can manage that.

 

[Infinitron]

Not really, unless the loss of health incurs some penalty to that particular character - which is unlikely and even then wouldn't be the same as losing a character mid-adventure.

But there is a penalty - you lost Health. And if you run out of Health...

What happens if you run out of Health though?

Then you die for real (on Expert difficulty at least). Just like you're dead in an IE game if you get killed and don't have any resurrection spells.

 

[tuluse]

Healing I can understand. But resurrection? Resurrection should be like the last resort and should involve *significant* sacrifice on the part of the player. Lack of death means lack of depth in the encounter. Instead of going, "oh shit, oh shit, they are going to murder me" you just shrug it off. In other words combat encounters are inconsequetial, especially those against weaker creatures. Unless - of course - they will balance the encounters towards damaging health instead of stamina. But somehow I cannot see how they can manage that.

Well complain about dnd then.

 

[Infinitron]

Healing I can understand. But resurrection? Resurrection should be like the last resort and should involve *significant* sacrifice on the part of the player. Lack of death means lack of depth in the encounter. Instead of going, "oh shit, oh shit, they are going to murder me" you just shrug it off. In other words combat encounters are inconsequetial, especially those against weaker creatures. Unless - of course - they will balance the encounters towards damaging health instead of stamina. But somehow I cannot see how they can manage that.

Well complain about dnd then.

Well, it's true that at lower levels in D&D, you don't have such easy access to resurrection spells (although still, a temple is never that far off), and in this respect, PE is actually more forgiving than Baldur's Gate 1.

But I think the argument here is that when players lose a character in low level D&D, they almost always reload a saved game anyway. You can't afford to lose a single character from your party when you're low-level and weak.

 

[Delterius]

Not really, unless the loss of health incurs some penalty to that particular character - which is unlikely and even then wouldn't be the same as losing a character mid-adventure.

But there is a penalty - you lost Health. And if you run out of Health...

Point is, you're saying that a loss of Health is a immediate cost. But that is only relevant if you lose more, enough to die for real. So, unless there's a penalty to a less-than-healthy character, the loss of Health is a potential long-term penalty; whereas the immediate loss of a party member is a immediate penalty, with a long-term cost for resurrection. You're arguing for the exception rather than the rule, when you're actually able to immediately heal Health, which I don't think will ever be the case.

 

[Infinitron]

Point is, you're saying that a loss of Health is a immediate cost. But that is only relevant if you lose more, enough to die for real. So, unless there's a penalty to a less-than-healthy character, the loss of Health is a potential long-term penalty; whereas the immediate loss of a party member is a immediate penalty, with a long-term cost for resurrection.

I never said it was an immediate cost. I said it was a cost. And yes, it's long-term, just like spending a raise dead/resurrection spell is. (You are being deprived of the freedom to sustain it as an immediate cost instead, though.)

You're arguing for the exception rather than the rule, when you're actually able to immediately heal Health, which I don't think will ever be the case.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[Mrowak]

Healing I can understand. But resurrection? Resurrection should be like the last resort and should involve *significant* sacrifice on the part of the player. Lack of death means lack of depth in the encounter. Instead of going, "oh shit, oh shit, they are going to murder me" you just shrug it off. In other words combat encounters are inconsequetial, especially those against weaker creatures. Unless - of course - they will balance the encounters towards damaging health instead of stamina. But somehow I cannot see how they can manage that.

Well complain about dnd then.

Well, it's true that at lower levels in D&D, you don't have such easy access to resurrection spells (although still, a temple is never that far off), and in this respect, PE is actually more forgiving than Baldur's Gate 1.

But I think the argument here is that when players lose a character in low level D&D, they almost always reload a saved game anyway. You can't afford to lose a single character from your party when you're low-level and weak.

Solution: make encounters looooong and challenging enough; also comprise them of multiple stages without saving during combat. Alternatively prohibit saving in the era -save upon leaving it. Then the choice between loading saved game will be meaningful. This is the idea I had after playing a little bit of King Arthur: Role-playing Wargame - it works beatifully. Granted, you cannot have battles of this scale in an RPG, but with proper design you can make encouters meaningful enough and long-winded to make him consider *not* reloading.

 

[Delterius]

Point is, you're saying that a loss of Health is a immediate cost. But that is only relevant if you lose more, enough to die for real. So, unless there's a penalty to a less-than-healthy character, the loss of Health is a potential long-term penalty; whereas the immediate loss of a party member is a immediate penalty, with a long-term cost for resurrection.

I never said it was an immediate cost. I said it was a cost. And yes, it's long-term, just like spending a raise dead/resurrection spell is. (You are being deprived of the freedom to sustain it as an immediate cost instead, though.)

So, what did you mean by 'paid in advance'? The loss of Health is immediate, why it matters isn't. The loss of a character is both immediate and the coping with it is also a later cost.

You're arguing for the exception rather than the rule, when you're actually able to immediately heal Health, which I don't think will ever be the case.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here.[/quote]

Should the later part of the game be more strenuous to the party (a mega-dungeon, for a example), healing Health might be done in the field through more expensive magic - which might then incur a material cost similar to resurrection. But that's a just a hypothetical.

 

[Infinitron]

So, what did you mean by 'paid in advance'? The loss of Health is immediate, why it matters isn't. The loss of a character is both immediate and the coping with it is also a later cost.

Well, in PE, if a character falls unconscious, that's also an immediate cost. He won't wake up until after the battle is won. So you need to be able to win the battle without him (immediate cost) plus you have the implicit health cost of regenerating his stamina (long term cost).

 

[Delterius]

So, what did you mean by 'paid in advance'? The loss of Health is immediate, why it matters isn't. The loss of a character is both immediate and the coping with it is also a later cost.

Well, in PE, if a character falls unconscious, that's also an immediate cost. He won't wake up until after the battle is won. So you need to be able to win the battle without him (immediate cost) plus you have the implicit health cost of regenerating his stamina (long term cost).

And how is that special?

 

[Infinitron]

And how is that special?

Special? I'm not sure what you mean.

It's different from the Infinity Engine games, in that you're being deprived of the (questionable) choice of letting your party member stay unconscious/dead after the battle. The short term cost is converted automatically to a long term cost.

 

[Delterius]

And how is that special?

Special? I'm not sure what you mean.

It's different from the Infinity Engine games, in that you're being deprived of the (questionable) choice of letting your party member stay unconscious/dead after the battle. The short term cost is converted automatically to a long term cost.

Special as in, how is that different from every game ever? You just converted the universal notion that characters aren't immortal into a argument.

The short term cost of having a character incapacitated and the long term cost of gold for resurrection, are both converted into a single long term cost of healing Health - which is a common ocurrence in the game and is probably going to be much cheaper than resurrection.

And how exactly can you question the 'decision' of carrying someone's ravaged corpse?

 

[Infinitron]

Special as in, how is that different from every game ever? You just converted the universal notion that characters aren't immortal into a argument.

It isn't? I'm not trying to argue anything here. I'm explaining.

The short term cost of having a character incapacitated and the long term cost of gold for resurrection, are both converted into a single long term cost of healing Health - which is a common ocurrence in the game and is probably going to be much cheaper than resurrection.

We'll have to see, won't we? I don't know how easy it will be to find places to rest in Project Eternity. Ever played a JRPG where you could only rest at save points? Those could get pretty brutal, if you didn't have a store of potions. And PE won't have health potions.

 

[Roguey]

Josh needs to play Arcanum too, or watch Avellone do it. Then he'd learn one can actually have lockpicking, bashing and magic spell to unlock locks, while lockpicking being superior to everything else... because in soviet Arcanum, when you bash lock, NPCs bash YOU.

He's played it. Putting points in lockpicking is pointless. Who cares if some npcs attack you when you're spotted in certain situations?

We are all talking in non-existant hypotheticals which you dismissed with a half arsed argument.

Not me. I know what games with lockbashing are like, having played them.

Thing is, Sawyer dismissed lockbashing because it can be a better option than lockpicking. And, fact is, people here are advocating lockbashing as merely another cool way to interact with the gameworld, not in any way more efficient than lockpicking. And, IMO, this would be a much more organic way to convey lockpicking's importance than simply 'force' the player to have it.

It's a way to interact with the gameworld that will make a skill you can invest in obsolete, therefore it should not exist. All those RPGs cut with baby powder, baking soda, and pseudo-simulationism were doing it wrong. I want to snort pure game.

 

[Hobz]

roshan

The problem with your approach (8 different ways to open a lock) is (IMHO) that, however fun it sounds, with a 6 men party if you have a dozen way to accomplish every actions, you'll end up being able to do everything in the game, trivializing absolutely all the non-combat content. I'd rather have a large pool of non-redundant skills, being able to pick some of them, and having some c&c in the way my group can interact with the world.

I want to be able to know the name of a culprit either by talking to the spirit of the dead victim, or lockpicking my way to clues, or intimidate suspects and whatnot, but i don't want ten ways to speak to the spirit, eight ways to bash the door to the room containing evidences and so on and so on.

 

[Irenaeus]

eight ways to bash the door to the room containing evidences and so on and so on.

Read what he wrote again. It's not eight ways to bash the door. It's eight ways to solve the problem of a locked door, each one with a different consequence.

 

[Hobz]

Well it's not like there is a large difference between lock-picking, bashing, bursting and disintegrating a door. I did not argue that we might not want different solutions for each given problem, of course we all want that, but rather that redundant solutions like lock-picking/bashing/bursting are really not that necessary and that i'd rather have fewer but more different approaches.

But yeah I agree he did not give 8 ways to bash a door, I went a bit overboard.

 

[Lancehead]

@Delterius Characters sustain injuries with losing health.