Paradox has bought White Wolf, plans on giving "some fresh blood" to the WoD/Vampire IPs

[Zombra]

What about all that humanity and masquerade business? Thin-bloods? I'd argue that a theme was that being a vampire isn't (just) a power fantasy.

Very good points. I didn't mean to imply that the fantasy was about COMPLETELY UNBRIDLED NAKED POWER, but overall it makes sense that the character feels far more personally powerful than a typical RPG 1st-level loser with a stick who has to run from rats, which is more or less what Kem0sabe was calling out. In a typical RPG, you are generally "just some guy", or a team of "just some guys", who must overcome limits and grow in power. A monster story is about something that already has power. (With the exceptions of stories about the littlest goblin, or whatnot, which are the equivalent of a video game about a janitor. Both of which can be great, but the expectations are different.)

As to thin-bloods, I was actually kind of surprised when I first saw them in the game, because they do burst the bubble of VAMPIRES ARE AWESOME DUDE. But I still don't think this breaks the expectation of the player wanting to portray a powerful monster. The important fantasy to fulfill isn't MONSTERS ARE AWESOME, but instead YOU ARE AWESOME. On reflection, the encounter with the thin-bloods so early in the game is instructive on this level and helps support that the PC really is a "low generation" or whatever Lacrymas is talking about (I don't know the P&P game at all), with above average power even for vampires instead of starting off as a loser. But you're absolutely right that the thin-bloods shatter the mystique.

What conflict? It's not as if the game ever gave you any choice in how to deal with the vampire politics - you're forced to rat Nines out even though he was practically wearing a sign that said 'I'm mind-controlled/shape-shifted/etc.' Ditto for not being able to do anything if you found out Ming was up to all sorts of shady stuff and in cahoots with LaCroix. Bloodlines' zero to hero progression is hardly unique - it's something that plagues most RPG's.

I'm not talking about player agency. You're right again about that; there is none. All I was saying (and I disagree with you here) is that Bloodlines is not a zero to hero story. You start the game as a hero in terms of physical power, and despite adding more skill points and so forth, there's no real feeling of progression in that regard. It's not a coming of age story either ... you start out a zero socially, and you pretty much stay a zero. You don't gain respect, position, or even a significant amount of trust over the course of the game. You're just a piece in someone else's game, but one with his finger on the button when the time comes for a decision. None of this is to say there is no conflict - there's plenty of story conflict, and this is what drives the game. You just don't control it.

 

[Lacrymas]

On reflection, the encounter with the thin-bloods so early in the game is instructive on this level and helps support that the PC really is a "low generation"

The UI supports this, not thin-bloods lulz. They don't exist to shatter the illusion of power, because it isn't an illusion, it's the real deal. We aren't sure what the player is, but a low gen vampire is the most coherent explanation OR The Withering is causing him/her to gain abnormal power. Why the Tzimisce says your blood smells different is a mystery, at least to me.

I'm not talking about player agency. You're right again about that; there is none. All I was saying (and I disagree with you here) is that Bloodlines is not a zero to hero story. You start the game as a hero in terms of physical power, and despite adding more skill points and so forth, there's no real feeling of progression in that regard. It's not a coming of age story either ... you start out a zero socially, and you pretty much stay a zero. You don't gain respect, position, or even a significant amount of trust over the course of the game. You're just a piece in someone else's game, but one with his finger on the button when the time comes for a decision. None of this is to say there is no conflict - there's plenty of story conflict, and this is what drives the game. You just don't control it.

While this is somewhat true, who is playing you isn't made clear. It's obviously not LaCroix and crew (including Ming) since they are all fools. Maximillian is too obvious and I think he admits that he doesn't know what's going on. It's also not clear if you are being played at all. LaCroix dominates you, but that's different. The cryptic messages from "a friend" don't go anywhere, so so much for that. At the end you are the most powerful vampire in the city, apart from Caine, soooo beats me. The problem is the ending being rushed and the narrative falling apart.

 

[Zombra]

The UI supports this, not thin-bloods lulz. They don't exist to shatter the illusion of power, because it isn't an illusion, it's the real deal. We aren't sure what the player is, but a low gen vampire is the most coherent explanation OR The Withering is causing him/her to gain abnormal power. Why the Tzimisce says your blood smells different is a mystery, at least to me.

You are the only person in the conversation who cares about matching the P&P lore to the video game. The thin bloods shatter the illusion of vampire power because they are vampires who don't have power. They are doods with pointy teeth cowering and shivering around a flaming barrel like bums and practically bursting into tears when you speak to them.

While this is somewhat true, who is playing you isn't made clear.

And there's no reason it needs to be.

 

[Mangoose]

Thin-bloods shatter the illusion of vampire power just like quadriplegics shatter the illusion of human evolutionary advantage.

 

[Zombra]

Thin-bloods shatter the illusion of vampire power just like quadriplegics shatter the illusion of human evolutionary advantage.

If there was a game about being a human and the first other humans you met in it were all quadriplegics, you might rethink how awesome humans are.

 

[Beastro]

Setting it after Gehenna is going to cheapen the event. Some people criticize the lore because of its focus on this apocalypse, but I thought it worked. It had an effect of an overarching narrative that works up to something and it affects all creatures, unifying the entire plot. Post-Gehenna would ruin the entire premise and it would be pointless. I also think we have enough post-apocalyptic games and the themes explored are always the same.

That's why you present it the way it would be expected for any rare survivors, build the plot around their struggles and keep it to at most a game or so so the setting isn't normalized as an everyday thing like how Fallout is so frozen in time despite centuries passing by.

It would be easily ruined for one all too common reason: it becomes popular and suddenly people want more of it, both it and the money it generates.

Dunno why time management in a Vampire game, using day and night cycle, would be such a problem.

It would add survival elements to the usual Vampiry ways where you have to create and keep track of the location of safe houses that you'd have to run to at dawn with maybe some sort of minigame tied into preparation to help you pass the time.

I'm reminded of the lack of weather in games directly effecting the PC and how neat it was in the Long Dark to make stumbling around intriguing when you realize you've gone too far to get back to a stash and have to struggle to find a place to get out of a blizzard and make use of what's inside to warm yourself up and maybe eat/heal.

In a Vampire game I could see that create odd emergent scenarios like having to to break into a house to hide from the sun and kill anyone inside while cleaning the place up and laying in wait to ambush anyone else that might stumble in, since if they spot you and make it back outside to bring reinforcements there's no where to run (maybe then have it in sprawled out settlements where it takes someone a day to get to the nearest farm so tension comes from not simply reloading while you hope dusk comes before they come back).

Day/night cycles wouldn't be so different from hunger/thirst indicators, which many people seem to love.

It's not that they in and of themselves are what pole love, it's the verisimilitude that they produce. In the case of vampires, hiding during the day and not having it fly by like TES waiting would create grounded downtime and other things that would make you feel like you were playing an actual vampire and not a superhuman that lacks any of the key downsides they're know to have.

On top of that, another major theme in vampire mythos is the power fantasy. Great power at the cost of humanity. In a game where "you are the monster", the expectation is that you'll be a cut above, and have a major edge on those around you. It's only natural to ego stroke the player more than usual. A game where you get to be a vampire but you're weak and helpless and it's all about your vulnerabilities would really be working against itself.

On top of that, Bloodlines wasn't a story about the player's struggle to build personal power or conquer his weaknesses. The PC has personal power, and basically no weaknesses, but the conflict lies in the manipulations of other people to exploit that power. It's engaging in a way that a traditional "start sucky, gain levels" RPG doesn't often achieve.

And yet it did have one unavoidable vulnerability if you played a Nosferatu and how they changed the gameplay.

It is ultimately the only weakness in the game that is non-negotiable or can be mitigated - you step out into the open and you cause problems. It was both organic and hardcoded and points in the direction of what people should be doing with vampires in games.

IMO, the vampire mythos needs to can it's power fantasy trappings and go back to the origins of vampires and living corpses people lived in fear of that were both powerful and vulnerable. It's why the Nosferatu "sub-genre" has always been so appealing and yet so underutilized, it's the only one that truly captures the folklore origins of the beings.

 

[WhiteGuts]

It doesn't "need" to go back to anything. Bloodlines provides a very solid base for a (spiritual) sequel. We can argue the "gamey" side of it, but what really made the game great for me is definitely the hardest to capture : mood, atmosphere, writing, and general tone.

 

[Athelas]

Bloodlines is not a zero to hero story.

But it is. In the early game you're struggling against human mooks, fast forward to the endgame and Ming's and the Sheriff's final forms look they could've walked straight out of a H.P. Lovecraft novel. You're also offered better lodgings by some of the clan leaders as you progress, as a sign that you're moving up in the vampire world. Where I disagree is about there being some interesting subtext to it - I don't think there is, I think it's the usual dissonance created by the rapid power progression and the necessary evil that is plot railroading. There are plenty of things to like about Bloodlines' writing, but this isn't one of them IMO.

 

[Lacrymas]

The thin bloods shatter the illusion of vampire power because they are vampires who don't have power.

They DO have power, they can use disciplines and have superhuman strength and etc. Some of them also have oracular abilities (the girl at the beach did have them). They ARE superhuman, the ones you meet are just outcasts who got into a bad situation and their sires were as clueless as they are. There are even thin-blood princes. Why wouldn't you take into account the lore of the P&P? It explains a lot of things in the game that are otherwise left hanging. Troika certainly took it into consideration (it's based on it for one).

That's why you present it the way it would be expected for any rare survivors, build the plot around their struggles and keep it to at most a game or so so the setting isn't normalized as an everyday thing like how Fallout is so frozen in time despite centuries passing by.

That's what I want to avoid, building the plot around their struggles. We have enough of those games already and they are all the same plot-wise. Gangs, murderers, starving people, bad people in general, a lot of talk about how fucked we are, a lot of rummaging through trash etc. It got samey pretty fast. Not to mention post-Gehenna isn't possible in the lore, because of Oblivion/Grandmother swallowing everything after it.

 

[lightbane]

IIRC, Caitiff or "thin-blooded" vampires are way stronger than what most other vampires think: they are able to learn most discipines for a reduced price and sunlight doesn't affect them that much. However, that may be caused because of White Wolf's inability to balance anything.

Regarding the reasons why the main character is so strong, besides the already mentioned reason that this is an action Rpg, I would add that it is a gamey but necessary element to allow the player to actually achieve something without having to wait and serve as an expendable pawn for literally dozens of years, before being able to increase their strength significantly (which is something that while it may happen in the tabletop rpg, it won't work in a computer game with such limited scope, for not to mention you don't have a party of fellow PCs to back you up).

 

[WhiteGuts]

We have enough of those games already and they are all the same plot-wise

Very few good ones.

 

[Roguey]

In the early game you're struggling against human mooks

um what

Depending on class/build, Bloodlines starts out easy and remains that way or starts out easy and gets much harder or starts out easy and has difficulty spikes here and there.

But I can't imagine anyone having problems with combat in Santa Monica, especially considering you can use blood buff to temporarily bring your strength up to max.

Well maybe if you absolutely insist on using the .38 with its absurdly bad stock accuracy.

 

[Athelas]

In the early game you're struggling against human mooks

um what

Depending on class/build, Bloodlines starts out easy and remains that way or starts out easy and gets much harder or starts out easy and has difficulty spikes here and there.

But I can't imagine anyone having problems with combat in Santa Monica, especially considering you can use blood buff to temporarily bring your strength up to max.

I didn't mean you literally struggle. I meant that the game has some 'boss' encounters where the bosses are ordinary humans, like that mannequin guy.

 

[Roguey]

I didn't mean literally. I meant that the game has some 'boss' encounters where the bosses are ordinary humans, like that mannequin guy.

That was a punchline. Some serial killing doofus shows up attacking you with a severed arm (doing bashing damage, which you're more resistant to than lethal or aggravated), but you're a vampire so you don't care.

 

[Xathrodox86]

I can't think of any studio I actually trust to develop a true successor to Bloodlines. This can only end in tragedy.

Bethesda.

 

[Lacrymas]

Very few good ones.

That is true for *everything* in the entire history of mankind :p

IMO, the vampire mythos needs to can it's power fantasy trappings and go back to the origins of vampires and living corpses people lived in fear of that were both powerful and vulnerable. It's why the Nosferatu "sub-genre" has always been so appealing and yet so underutilized, it's the only one that truly captures the folklore origins of the beings.

Eeeehhhhh, vampires from folklore also have arithmomania and that won't be so fun to play :p

What people seem to be describing is a Thief-like game where you have to stealth your way to humans to eat them. Instead of loot your targets are necks. I fail to see how that facilitates an RPG or plays to the strengths of the premise. The Nosferatu in VtM:B worked only in the context of the other playthroughs, not on its own. It was different BECAUSE of the others, not in spite of them.

 

[J1M]

The value of the White Wolf IP is certainly the themes and ideas behind Old World Of Darkness content. I would like to see another game in the style of Bloodlines as much as anyone. I'd hate to see things end there though.

Part of what made Bloodlines a solid game is that although it has the Gehenna nonsense as a backdrop, the game doesn't involve slaying an outsider and saving the world. A Bloodlines 'sequel' would greatly benefit from a lack of assumptions about what city it takes place in, which characters are involved, and what year it is. There is so much richness to the established lore that a game where the protagonist sets out to unearth the 'secret history of vampires' would be quite compelling. Even before you get into the misdirections and alternate explanations.

Since they own the entire set of IP, some other options are available. For example, an FPS where you play as a human that hunts supernatural creatures by using stealth/guile/researching their weaknesses.

I'd also like to see an attempt at a game where you play as a clan elder, instead of always dropping the player in the shoes of a childer. Maybe as an adventure game or strategy simulation, where the focus and conflict resolution is dealt with in terms of supernatural politics, not 3-hit combos.
(EDIT: A deck-building card game for conflict resolution would actually work quite well as an abstraction for the gathering of allies and expenditure of political favors.)

 

[J1M]

IIRC, Caitiff or "thin-blooded" vampires are way stronger than what most other vampires think: they are able to learn most discipines for a reduced price and sunlight doesn't affect them that much. However, that may be caused because of White Wolf's inability to balance anything.

Thin-bloods and dhampir are stupid ideas that take up valuable space that would be better used for a deeper look into a real clan or the introduction of some WoD crossover elements.

 

[Mangoose]

IIRC, Caitiff or "thin-blooded" vampires are way stronger than what most other vampires think: they are able to learn most discipines for a reduced price and sunlight doesn't affect them that much. However, that may be caused because of White Wolf's inability to balance anything.

Thin-bloods and dhampir are stupid ideas that take up valuable space that would be better used for a deeper look into a real clan or the introduction of some WoD crossover elements.

Aren't thin-bloods just vampires with anemia?

 

[J1M]

IIRC, Caitiff or "thin-blooded" vampires are way stronger than what most other vampires think: they are able to learn most discipines for a reduced price and sunlight doesn't affect them that much. However, that may be caused because of White Wolf's inability to balance anything.

Thin-bloods and dhampir are stupid ideas that take up valuable space that would be better used for a deeper look into a real clan or the introduction of some WoD crossover elements.

Aren't thin-bloods just vampires with anemia?

They are basically the millennials of WoD. It's a waste of design space.
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Thin-blooded
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Dhampir

 

[WhiteGuts]

That is true for *everything* in the entire history of mankind :p

Not really. And my point was that it was a good enough reason to stop making those types of games just because there are lots of bad ones out there.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=+...TION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch

Vampire the Masquerade was not officially trademarked as a computer game software until now. Previous trademarks were on books and manuals. Looks like White Wolf has been relocated closer to the Paradox HQ.

It was quite obvious before, that Paradox was going to make a computer game in this setting, but now we are 100% sure and know the work is already starting. Remember how recently Obsidian said they will reveal a new game in few months? It looks possible we are getting a Vampire cRPG from them.

It is my third time finding new cRPG trademarks. In the row. Who is the top Codex spy?

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

You're good, and unlike Infinitron you don't ask the Jewish Melonhead Overlords for top info.

They should get the Mitsodas and Ziets back on this. Bloodlines 2, here we go?

 

[Stainless Veteran]

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=+ 86853419&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch

Vampire the Masquerade was not officially trademarked as a computer game software until now. Previous trademarks were on books and manuals. Looks like White Wolf has been relocated closer to the Paradox HQ.

It was quite obvious before, that Paradox was going to make a computer game in this setting, but now we are 100% sure and know the work is already starting. Remember how recently Obsidian said they will reveal a new game in few months? It looks possible we are getting a Vampire cRPG from them.

It is my third time finding new cRPG trademarks. In the row. Who is the top Codex spy?

Oh, sweet Lord, let it not be Sawersidian.
Edit: And not Mitsodas too. Because I'm reasonably sure that we'll get the good Tzimisce would have that grand dream to turn those misogynistic mortals into non-binary vozhds (and also cathedrals), and embrace only worthiest SJWs with most colorful hair ever possible. And evil patriarchal Camarilla would oppose them.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Almost nobody ITT expressed a desire to see a new Bloodlines made by either Obsidian or Mitsodas though. Also slutty women and powerful men? Heh, I think you've mixed up VtM with Gor novels.

As for me, I'd vote to give it to CDPR. They can handle mature themes (with varying degree of success, but still). If you want sexy content - they had it covered (and polished, and plowed).

Spoiler

They can design open world games, they can write good characters (for example, Iorveth and Vernon Broche weren't in the books, but they both were very well written and seamlessly integrated into Sapkowski's world). Vampire: the Masquerade was always a gothic-punk setting. While I'm not sure if they can pull a gothic vibe, nobody likes pre-apocalypse and punk atmosphere more than people from Slavic ex-Bloc countries, they can certainly pull it off. CDPR definitely has talented artists and 3D modellers. Also we then could have Tzimisces talking in polish, what can be creepier. Bloodlines 2 taking place in ex-Eastern Bloc would be a cool thing too.

True, but nowadays almost every last RPG developer would have done it. And for me Bloodlines were close to ideal adaptation, especially the first hub. If it would have been bigger and more reactive, VtM:B would have been just the best game ever. Among today's generation of developers I can see only CDPR managing to pull off something similar. Well, maybe also Eidos Montreal, Deus Ex HR dev team (and now I will be probably stoned to death by an angry Codex mob). But CDPR being a first and almost only choice.

InExile can make nostalgia games, but they don't have neither talent nor budget to make good visuals, and I have serious doubts about them managing to pull off proper atmosphere and an open world. Also there's a matter of SJWism, if they'd chose to explore more controversial themes, they'd need to stand up against all those concerned transwomen in gaming, and they never will do that. Even if they wanted to, they just can't do it, they are too indie and small budget to ignore this shit.

Obsidian, with semi-retired Tim Cain, Urquhart and Josh Sawer? Yeah, nope. Issue of Sawers' SJWism aside, they have all the problems of InExile, but also a supreme banalcing influence of Sawer, I always thought he's just a Weaver spirit in clever disguise. Even if they'd manage to procure the license and money, plot will be too safe and bland, no controversies whatsoever. In visual department Obsi never shined, same goes for music and sound.

Bethesda? Lol nope.

Bioware? HELL NO.

Same HELL NO STAY THE FUCK OUT goes for Mitsodas (at least until Brian will consider a divorce, lol).

Larian - God, now that would be a freaking disaster and a total tonal mismatch.

Spiders? Nope.

Only other developer from whom I'd wanted to see a oWoD game is Vault Dweller. It would have been very interesting to play something similar to AoD, but longer (and with more content), based on any oWoD franchise.

Yeah, and that's why I wrote that I fully understand that I will be stoned. But I mentioned them because while I don't think they are a good fit for a faithful adaptation of PnP mechanics and complexity - I still think that oWoD is very, very hard to translate into CRPG format, both mechanically, in terms of metaplot, and social focus. Maybe Black Isle in its heyday could have managed to pull it off, but none of the contemporary devs.
But. If we're talking about Bloodlines successor specifically, then for the game to be both faithful and good it must have:
1) open or semi-open world, with various interesting little locations to explore, also location design;
2) very good graphic and character design (mood and feel of the original was greatly enhanced by both remarkably designed, unique characters and area design);
3) great music and sound, which is a crucial component of setting the mood;
4) not very verbose, but still quite thorough and interesting, often cinematic dialogues (Malkavian dialogue was great, fuck naysayers, it had tons of little callbacks to lore and metaplot, among other things);
5) overall dark mood and adult themes in both environmental storytelling, dialogues and plot;
6) decent-to-good popamole combat, with a preference to stealth ambushes and/or combat avoidance.

In DX:HR Eidos Montreal managed to pull off decent atmosphere (it wasn't as good as original HR, of course, but whatchagonnado). It was more of a Ghost in the Shell then Deus, but I'm fine with it. World wasn't open per se, but hubs were big, pretty, and decently designed (I'd prefer them to be bigger and have more content, but, again, oh well). Music was very good. Dialogues were a mixed bag, but way better than in Dragon Age II, which came out in the same year. DX:HR semi-successfully tackled themes of humanism, transhumanism, conspiracies, role of a person in history, etc. And I liked stealth, so sue me.

tl;dr DX:HR was good for what it is, had some similarities with VtM:B, and that's why Eidos Montreal HR's devs are my second choice after CDPR if we are talking about a popamole RPG.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Out of all the rpg developers out there, I would like to see CD projekt developing a vampire game.