On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Zero Credibility]

While this way we get all their warriors that already have experience in fighting the real threat that we might be facing, which they can teach our warriors. Had we attacked them we would be weaker then we are now.

We would have gotten combat experience and water technology in the same update. Two birds with one stone.

Er, no. B choice is to have them teach us how to make and use boats, probably fishing and the rest. Had we attacked, we would STILL have to go through the same fucking thing to get their technology. Only now instead of willing and grateful new tribesmen we would have to learn it from surviving resentful slaves. Yeah, that would go much smoother. What, you think that killing some of them and enslaving the rest would magically give us their technology?

Now we have to pick between the two and all we got was some information that anyone could have told you ("we got our ass kicked by people good at kicking ass"). What can they teach our warriors? "They massacred us only using their fists and our weapons were useless. So uhh hope it goes better for you guys". All they've done so far is spread alarm and fear, shown by the elders panicking and suggesting we move elsewhere.

We found several tribes much like us, establishing peaceful relationships and trading fish for fish.

These guys were even wussier than us. Their "fighting" of this great menace pretty much accounted to getting completely curbstomped and massacred. Your idea that they can help us fight is akin to suggesting that an escaped Anne Frank could have helped Patton at the Battle of the Bulge.

They were men like us and you, yet they weren't like us and you. They were beasts, roaring their hunger and hatred

Ah, and the heart of the matter. He's absolutely right, these men aren't like "us and you". They actually know how to fight and appear to have a set of balls! We should be ashamed at his comparison of his tribe to ours. Pacifists who got their teeth kicked in when they met non-pacifists.

And what a glorious victory that would be had we attacked them. Why, we would have gained the experience in fighting pacifists (that still have more experience in actual fighting that we do) with spears when the odds favors us what, 5 or even 10 to 1? I'm sure that would come in very handy when we get attacked by a horde of unarmed savages. And yes, we would have lost some hunters. And there would be none of their hunters left alive to join us. And we would have to allocate additional men to constantly watch over the resentful survivors that we would still have to provide for. But it would turn our hunters from pussies to hardened warriors (in some unspecified way).

 

[oscar]

Perhaps not in 15 days, but likely by the end of this present update. And our new slaves would be teaching us how to carve, manoeuvre and maintain these floating logs while the menfolk brag and sing (tall) tales of their valour and bravery.

The reason I'm annoyed, is that now we're forced to choose between assimilating them at the net expense of two updates (and whether assimilation is even preferable to slavery is still up in the air) or learning to kill (btw, I'm not too sure how A works here, do we suddenly learn kung fu or something or do the men just start drilling?) at the expense of one. Instead we could have gotten them as slaves and their water knowledge for the price of a single update.

My annoyance is compounded by the fact that our present dilemma forces us to choose between neglecting assimilation (causing unrest and conflict) and neglecting our fighting ability and even capacity to kill. So no matter what we're going to choose something bad will happen to us. This update is dealing with a crisis. There would have been no crisis if we'd attacked, only possible improvements.

 

[Curufinwe]

Guys, do me a favor. When you cast your vote, do so clearly at the beginning of the post, then speculation and reasoning after that. I'm not totally sure of the count right now, if it's 5 A 6 B or 6 A 6 B (Jick Magger, your post is the ambiguous one, it looks like an A vote but I'm not 100% sure).

 

[Jick Magger]

B's only really a good option in the long run of things. It wouldn't give us that great an advantage over the fanatics because there's a good chance they're also familiar with sea-faring. We need to develop tactics based around hit and run over our familiar territory, it's our only hope since we have no real chance of matching them with numbers and they outclass us physically.
Yeah, it's an A

 

[Curufinwe]

(btw, I'm not too sure how A works here, do we suddenly learn kung fu or something or do the men just start drilling?)

Usually I keep my 'technology gain' updates ambiguous. If the update covers a large period of time, you 'magically' learn the new thing. If it's, like the last, a 15 days deal, you just start doing and will gain the thing somewhere down the road. How can you know which is the case? You can't. Which sucks, but I try to be at least vaguely realistic.

 

[oscar]

But it would turn our hunters from pussies to hardened warriors (in some unspecified way

It's hardly unspecified. Our hunters had been clamouring for a chance to fight for several updates and we have repeatedly refused. As it stands, they have never killed anything more dangerous than a zebra. These people we will someday face have wiped out entire tribes.

Usually I keep my 'technology gain' updates ambiguous. If the update covers a large period of time, you 'magically' learn the new thing. If it's, like the last, a 15 days deal, you just start doing and will gain the thing somewhere down the road. How can you know which is the case? You can't. Which sucks, but I try to be at least vaguely realistic.

Of course. Not that I'm complaining but I wonder if we even can considering our tribe's experience with violence amounts to about one murder and a bear attack.

 

[Zero Credibility]

But it would turn our hunters from pussies to hardened warriors (in some unspecified way

It's hardly unspecified. Our hunters had been clamouring for a chance to fight for several updates. As it stands, they have never killed anything more dangerous than a zebra. These people we will someday face have wiped out entire tribes.

No, it's still unspecified. Killing somebody doesn't magically transform you into a warrior. Our hunters wouldn't be any more effective in combat having killed a bunch of fleeing refugees then they are now.

 

[Vernydar]

At any rate, what is done is done, really. The real question is, will picking A now be enough if these people come right now? Will it give us some new military tech that could turn the tide? Or, will it be pointless because they outnumber us 10 to 1? Because if we have to flee anyway, then it's better to pick B....

 

[oscar]

A soldier who has fought in a minor battle is still a hell of a lot more experienced than a completely green recruit who has has never held a weapon in anger in his life. You are correct that it would have been an easy battle, but even the experience of an easy battle is a big leap from no experience at all.

 

[Zero Credibility]

A soldier who has fought in a minor battle is still a hell of a lot more experienced than a completely green recruit who has has never held a weapon in anger in his life. You are correct that it would have been an easy battle, but even the experience of an easy battle is a big leap from no experience at all.

The question is would the experience gained through this battle (which amounts to little more then a massacre, but with them fighting to the death we would probably still have casualties) be worth the price I stated previously (our casualties, none of them left alive to join our hunters and a bunch of slaves that are of no use to us right now but will still need watching and looking after). Somehow I doubt it. Training is what makes a soldier effective, not making a first kill. Real combat experience is what makes a veteran, not sticking a spear in some fleeing refugee.

 

[CappenVarra]

B

 

[Vernydar]

A

Ok, this for me was the hardest choice yet. The technological freak that I am really really wanted to vote B. But I choose A for a number of reasons.
- We have a technological advantage here. We have spears, and they do not. Also, unlike the other tribe who was attacked before, we have spears with obsidian! They either had plain rock, or wooden spears (we never asked). The savages would not expect our obsidian spears to pass through their pelt armors.
- From their modus operandi, these hostile, savage people seems likely to still be behind us in military technology if they come after us right now. After all they do NOT seem the type to sit down, learn, and quickly adapt their tactics. Raving savages, usually, are technologically behind. They should not have boats or spears if they come after us now, even more if they only faced wooden spears or normal rock spears which are not that effective against them.
- It is not set in stone that they will outnumber us by so much. Are they more than us? Yes, but maybe not all of them will come south. Or maybe, they will have taken casualties...
- We may learn some military tech, apart from the training. Some thrown weapon, maybe some primitive armor made of pelts. This would further advantage us, these people seem to already have some sort of pelt armors, but they are bare-handed.
- Also these fleeing people seem trustworthy, but maybe they're putting it a little more hopeless than it really is. Being run over tends to make you inflate the number of enemies.

Up to this point, I was still dubious but the following two reasons tipped the balance for me
- We are not alone here. Now we have proven knowledge that there are other tribes out there, and that some of them are hostile. We might be looking at the savages beyond the northern hills.... but what if another hostile tribe comes from the plains? Or from the savannah? Or maybe, not even a tribe, but some savage beast like the one these people described to us?
- And even supposing the savages come, and it's hopeless and we need to flee. What if we flee far from here, and we come to a new location, and it's inhabited by hostile people? We'd need to fight them too...

In short, we need some ability to defend us. It's even rp, the tribe is scared, being able to defend us helps us.

 

[AstralStorm]

A.
We need to be more badass highlanders. Really. Preparing for the unknown in any way can only end well.
Let's learn the boating later - and since we know fire we can burn anything that approaches us if we prepare for it.
We also have half-decent weaponry, probably both close and far. This practice should also help with hunting.

 

[Lindblum]

Whats stopping some of the refugees from leaving?
Maybe while we are beefing up security(A), they may not have confidence in us and just run off.

We helped them but there's nothing to stop them from leaving, we should just get the learning stuff over with.
The tribe had the chance for gaining battle hardened warriors last update and the elders blew it.
Squeeze everything from the refugees, if they knew about our preparation for battle they may just flee due to fear.

 

[Curufinwe]

Alright. The social life monster raises its ugly head again this evening. Since the vote is still very much open I'll do the update later this evening, when I get back or, at worst (aka if I'm too tired when I get back) tomorrow morning. Stay tuned!

 

[Rumsfeld]

This is what happens when a bunch of peace-loving, bong-sniffing hippies take over a tribe. Are we supposed to tolerate this threat to our freedom and way of life?

I vote A. Of Course.

 

[Curufinwe]

Ok. The hunters finally get their way, though barely (9-7).

The debate was over before it began. The hunters could not be denied. The mood of the whole tribe was of great worry, sometimes bordering on panic. Yet the response was quickly prepared.

In the following months the most able hunters started training able men in the use of the weapons we knew: spears and axes. A strict physical training regime was instated. Almost every able bodied man trained frantically, afraid of a possible imminent attack.

The spear was no longer considered only a melee weapon, as lighter and shorter spears were developed for throwing purposes, thanks to the insight of the refugees who kept talking in hushed tone of the incredible ferocity of their enemies ('You don't want any of them to get close enough to take a swipe at you, boys' said an old cripple, showing the stump of his right hand)

No further news came from downriver, thankfully. It seemed the bestial men had indeed lost the scent of the fugitive river-people and had no need to expand their territory past the hills.
With the initial alarm slowly waning, the animal tamers and the keepers of fire made a temporary political alliance and brought an issue in front of the council.

'We can't afford to keep this training regime up for everyone: the herds are suffering, the scavenging has almost ceased and we haven't had the time to be taught the new boating and fishing ways: we need to do something, our tribe won't survive forever like this.'
Surprisingly, the warrior chief agreed: 'Indeed we can't go on forever like this. But in that case, we need to decide how to continue. We have two possibilities.'

A. He planted a spear on his left and said: 'We can give every man in the tribe some training in the use of weapons, and call them up in times of need, or...'
B. He then tossed his axe on the right: 'We can focus our training on a smaller number of men whose only duty would become to protect the tribe. Specialized warriors, if you will.'

Ok, vote time. Only two options: do you want a 'citizen militia' model or an elite warriors one?

 

[Jack]

B - Specialization is good.

 

[Rumsfeld]

This is a clash of civilisations. It's time for a Department of Homeland Security.

B

 

[m4davis]

A
we need as much military as we can get and this way if one of are scouts our herdsman is attacked they can defend them selfs and not be left to the mercy of the enemy

 

[oscar]

Ah an interesting choice, a professional warrior class or a mass militia. Some points:

- These professional warriors can't help with the harvest and are an economic drain
- While okay for defending, a levy can't campaign for very long or our economy will collapse

Hmmm a tough one. B. Hopefully it doesn't turn into a hereditary caste-system, but rather a meritocratic system (biggest, strongest and bravest get equipment from a communal pool?).

 

[Tigranes]

B.

 

[AstralStorm]

Hmm, both are risky in their own ways.

I'd vote for C, every able person is cycled through their duty but when active, they're trained to be professionals.
That way we should have best of both, both many decently trained demobilized force and an active professional force.

Right now the tribe is still pretty small, so the vote is A.

 

[Hirato]

B has my vote.
Let's go with A instead...


I quite like AstralStorm's suggestion of rotating through the tribe so everyone gets training, but that's unfortunately not an option...

 

[Curufinwe]

I'd vote for C, every able person is cycled through their duty but when active, they're trained to be professionals.
That way we should have best of both, both many decently trained demobilized force and an active professional force.

Can't have the best of both worlds. In the 'rotation' idea people don't dedicate enough training hours to be called professionals.

On a sidenote, waking up by earthquake sucks.