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On the nature of trust in pseudo random number generators true nature

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by lukaszek, Aug 13, 2018 at 6:29 AM.

  1. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
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    Its hard to have a proper discussion about RNG without watching first The Blood of Heroes with Rutheg Hauer. Watch it first and then you can move on.

    I want to drive closer attention to rules of Jugger, time keeping to be exact. You have an old guy with 100 stones and a gong. He is throwing stones at a gong. Game starts and ends with 1st and last stone. Here:


    Now imagine watching fifa game which length would be determined in same way. Commentators would be like: he is barely standing, we are predicting 30min longer game than usual.
    Later on, after careful consideration referee would decide add 5 more stones.
    Time itself becomes non deterministic.

    Now when you play your perfect rpg, imagine that behind each dice roll there is temporary universe spun up. It contains only old man with his stones and a referee with pocket atomic clock. He counts seconds of old man performance and returns value modulo 20.
    How do you like your RNG systems now?
     
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  2. Bester Arcane Vatnik

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    I did NOT understand that.
     
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  3. ItsChon Learned

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    I understood it, you're not missing out on anything.

    Movie looks cool though, so I might take a look at it.
     
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  4. aweigh Arcane

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    stopped reading at gong

    EDIT: i mean, isn't it common knowledge that there are no random numbers? like, doesn't everyone know this?
     
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  5. AdolfSatan Educated

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    Either the universe is deterministic by nature, which renders the whole ordeal about RNG pointless, or it isn't, which makes deterministic behaviour stupid, since every aspect that lead to the moment in which the pre-determined outcome of a system is decided has been aleatory.
    Whatever you choose to believe, the wheels are already in motion and there's nothing you can do to fight against it. This discussion is pointless, your only escape is death.
     
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  6. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
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    For maxium craziness you can connect a cesium-decay based random number generator to your game
     
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  7. lukaszek Arcane

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    you would be surprised. Its not what Im getting at though - using system and not knowing whats underneath.
    Its like with this black mirror episode
    Show Spoiler
    'Hang the DJ'
    humans are using evil computers without understanding whats really happening there


    thats where pseudo random numbers come in. 'Pseudo' in lax terms meaning not really random but if you cant tell the difference from result then does it really matter? And since you can get secure pseudo generator as far as cryptography is concerned I wouldnt get into area of belittling it.

    What im getting at are that people are fine with rng without knowing that under the hood someone is counting ticks of a clock and performing some math. Or get used keystrokes/eyeball movement/whatever if you want to be more fancy.

    you had me until you did put fate in equation
     
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  8. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
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    Did you consider that most people don't give a flying fuck about this
     
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  9. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    It says: I DONT LIKE RNG WHY DO U LIKE RNG

    Guy is obsessed and keeps making this same thread every once in a while just differently worded. Points for trying, I guess.
     
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  10. Bocian Prophet

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    deterministic system > rng
     
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  11. Grauken Arcane Patron

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    wave function collapse > deterministic system
     
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  12. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    What the fuck does it matter? Does it make your autism flare up?

    lukaszek: Hey, guise, random numbers suck because u don't always know what's gonna happen!
    codex: That's the point, it adds extra excitement and instead of having everything be 1 or 0 you sometimes have to consider whether you can succeed or not
    lukaszek: Ah, but did you know that the random numbers are not really random, but predetermined! HAHA, suckers!

    :hmmm:
     
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  13. AdolfSatan Educated

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    It was just a figure of speech; you don't actually have any kind of choice, otherwise I would've been in contradiction with my previous statement. Figured you'd get the implied joke with the inability to control death and all that neurotic drivel.
     
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  14. Roqua Arcane In My Safe Space

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    Since a good amount of rpg systems describe a round as a time between 6 to 10 seconds or so, without being perfectly specific, time was already non-deterministic.

    And the good thing about random number systems isn't the dice roll and luck. It is the underlying systems that allow you to manipulate the random numbers by chardev, itemization, etc. The more complex the system, the more ways to manipulate, the more fun it is.

    Non-random systems are not fun for thinking people. The lack of variables make the outcomes perfectly foreseeable for most people. What could be a beautiful menagerie of incalculable possibilities is reduced to a quarter sized chess board presenting the square root of fun. I also like when someone advertises a game as being deterministic but it allows you to increase your dodge chance and other random number elements - making the rare non-random game that isn't.

    People that prefer games with no random number manipulation are basically calling for high-stakes casino poker to be turned into solitaire. You remove the betting aspect, the luck aspect, the strategy aspect, reading people aspect, and the thrill of taking a chance without being sure of the outcome, etc. But not just that outcome, the next outcome, and the next, which all need to be manipulated as best you can, with all the various tools the systems put at your disposal, until jackpot motherfuckers.

    Why not remove itemization? Why have better items? Why have choice and consequence in the story? Why have character generation? Why have chardev systems? Why have rpgs? Why not make every game Metal Gear Whatever?

    RPGs are the sum total of its parts. If you remove the reason for all the good parts, you have a lesser product. This is not just true for non-random systems being far lesser products when viewed through an rpg lens, or a realism lens, but also for games that do not present a challenge. With no challenge you take away the reason for all those systems and are left with a dramatically inferior product.

    Also, deterministic is a word meant to manipulate perception. Its random or non-random. Or systematic. Saying deterministic is a way to dress a pig up to make it look fancy or smart. To make it more palatable. Like the MSM using undocumented immigrant instead of illegal alien. Its used to promote and agenda instead of being what it is. And that agenda is shit games with barely any rpg elements.
     
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  15. HansDampf Arbiter

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    No.
     
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  16. DakaSha V Scholar

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    People that claim deterministic systems are inherently better than non-deterministic systems are just trying to feign some kind of skill-superiority, while wondering why all the games that they are so proud of being good at feel like boring ass puzzles instead of proper tactics and strategy.
     
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  17. Zarniwoop Destiny Cleanser Patron

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    Tactics and strategy are not deterministic?
     
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  18. Bester Arcane Vatnik

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    You people will "discuss" fucking anything. Unsubscribing.
     
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  19. rusty_shackleford Learned

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    I believe this statement requires further discussion.

    On topic, pseudo random number generation is usually good enough for 99% of scenarios. Poorly coded systems lead to dumb situations, like the Wasteland 2 jamming system where a 1% jam chance would routinely jam multiple times in a row (probably a badly implemented seed value).
     
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  21. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    Rated OP :obviously: for Salute of the Jugger mention.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018 at 5:08 PM
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  22. Berekän Arcane Patron

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    So I wasn't crazy after all, thought it was just me.
     
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  23. Tacgnol Shitlord Patron

    Tacgnol
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    I can't remember whether they ever directly acknowledged the problem, but it was certainly fixed at some point.

    I believe other Unity games have had similar issues with the engine's built in randomisation library.
     
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  24. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
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    you are now claiming that deterministic systems must also be full knowledge.
    I do like cards systems in fact: they generate unknown once at the beginning. From that moment everything is up to you(even if you dont know everything).
     
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  25. Black Angel Savant

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    Letting character's skill decides whether or not the character can pick that lock through dice rolls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty lockpicking minigames.

    Same with hacking.

    I know this thread more or less talking about combat in general, but I just want to say.
     
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