Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Development Info Obsidian going down to South Park

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Jason, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Edward_R_Murrow Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Edward_R_Murrow
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,485
    Location:
    Motherfuckerville
    Click here and disable ads!
    While I'm not certain if this game will be up my alley, it's safe to say this is not going to be a game for the hardcore cRPG fan in any way, shape, or form. This has SLAM DUNK written all over it, moreso than Lionheart, Dark Alliance, or DungSeige ever did.

    Judging from the secondhand account of the GameInformer article, the gameplay is going to be something like Paper Mario. I don't mind that style, but it takes a certain skill with design to pull off those mechanics, skills Obsidian probably lacks. They'd need to be able to take a combat system that doesn't have a lot of depth and squeeze the most out of it with well designed encounters, fun "set piece" fights, and a good sense of pacing in the encounter rate. And if you've played Obsidian games you know they fail in these departments. For example, look at often they fill games with loads of trash encounters (every single game), how they make awful messes of boss fights (Alpha Protocol being the most obvious offender, though KOTOR 2 does a bang up job...of being terrible in this department), and they really never provide much in the way of memorable, unique, encounters (though, to be fair, J.E. Sawyer's work in Icewind Dale 2 produced some great ones...and some TERRIBAD ones too. If he's working on SPRPG, and it isn't in shitastic Bethesda-enforced design constraints, it *might* have a chance). And if you don't like the Paper Mario style of simple, action-command-driven combat (this is probably 70%, easy, of the Codex), you'll probably hate the game.

    Don't expect much in the way of deconstruction of the RPG genre either. Well, at least not the ones "we" tend to think of. Have a look at some of these statements:

    It seems that RPG, to Parker and Stone, isn't Wizardy/Ultima/Fallout/BG, but jRPGs and newer stuff like WoW, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. Or at least that's what their fanbase (the South Park one) thinks of when they think RPGs. So don't expect anything close to Torment in terms of deconstruction of RPGs, expect something more along the lines of every GameFAGs, IGN, or blog with a TOP TEN LIST OF BIGGEST RPG CLICHES which draws mostly from jRPGs.

    Bottom line, this one probably ain't for "us".
    ^ Top  
  2. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Well, I'll be the smuggest motherfucker in the codex when the game comes out and theres several threads about how good it is and how much codexers love it.

    :smug:

    @Also ERM Read Anthony Davis posts for fucks sake. I already asked him about how much Obsidian is involved in the project.
    ^ Top  
  3. Volrath Arcane Patron

    Volrath
    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,986
    Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
    Our resident artfag makes a triumphant return.
    ^ Top  
  4. Crooked Bee Nyadmin Patron

    Crooked Bee
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    12,212
    Codex 2014 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    :salute: Great post, thanks for the analysis!

    I definitely agree, even if I would really, really like Obsidian (or any other studio for that matter) to make something comparable to, say, Earthbound or even Paper Mario, yet in a more "western" way. But it's one helluva task to pull something like that off, and no one among the Obsidianites has any experience making those kind of games, as far as I know, which makes it double tough for them.
    ^ Top  
  5. Sannom Educated

    Sannom
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    When will people on this board learn what a SLAM DUNK! really is? It seems that whenever Obsidian makes a game that doesn't fit with the Codex' expectations, they call it a SLAM DUNK! . So far only KOTOR 2, Fallout: New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2 (if you really want to be picky) were SLAM DUNK! by Obsidian.
    ^ Top  
  6. Edward_R_Murrow Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Edward_R_Murrow
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,485
    Location:
    Motherfuckerville
    Bro, are you talking about Obsidian's involvement in the writing? I know they have a hand in writing parts of the game, but I still don't expect to see them cram it full of jokes targeted at the hardcore cRPG crowd. At best there will be a few minor references, probably in some "grumpy-old-man" character complaining about how things aren't as great as they were back in the good old days. They aren't going to make a ton of jokes the South Park fanbase will totally miss to satisfy a tiny minority akin to the Codex.

    Lionheart was a joke...probably not the best way to start off a listing. My bad.

    Anyway, my understanding of a SLAM DUNK! was that is was a game which could be made relatively cheaply and/or leveraged a successful, established IP that would guarantee cashmoney inflow. South Park seems totally like this with great savings on developing art assets/world building/characterization and a HYOOOOGE IP behind it.
    ^ Top  
  7. Fens Ford of the Llies Patron

    Fens
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,890
    Location:
    pitcairn
    so obsidian pulled a monty python spanish inquisition, eh ?

    there was even a WoW south park episode... and i'm amazed they are trying to cash in with another SP single player title instead of a MMO-quick-hack...

    anyway... i think we won't see much character development or engaging story in this one (or C&C: there's a new kenny each episode)... might still turn out to be a decent adventure game

    might have been a better idea to go with a character specific mission driven GTA-clone like The Simpsons: Hit & Run
    ^ Top  
  8. circ Arcane

    circ
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    9,417
    Location:
    Great Pacific Garbage Patch
    Yeah no dude. People don't call it a SLAM DUNK because of how good or bad the game is, but because it's a quote from Feargus described by Ed above. This philosophy of game making maybe, along with just plain crap coding, has rendered the majority of their games bug-ridden unplayable shit. DS3 was relatively bug-free I hear, unless you count the controls, no way to change them initially, wank camera, retarded MP, etc. Business as usual.
    ^ Top  
  9. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    11,280
    I would. Life in plastic, it's fantastic. :M

    I thought DS3 did a decent job of those things. Particularly the bosses.
    ^ Top  
  10. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Close, but I would say not exactly. Slam Dunk is making a game focused on content with as little to no extra costs. Meaning same engine/(mostly) same art assets and so on. So to make a rundown:

    Knights of the Old Republic 2 = Slam Dunk
    NWN2 = (Half) a Slam Dunk
    Alpha Protocol = Not a Slam Dunk
    New Vegas = Like Fallout 2 THE Slam-Dunk.
    DSIII = Not a slam dunk (As everything was made from the ground up, except the story building up on previous games)
    South Park RPG = Not a Slam Dunk (Successful IP BUT everything has to be done from the ground up regarding the game)
    ^ Top  
  11. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Wanna bet that there is more than that? Especially in Sidequests?

    Nono, better idea:

    Do you want to bet that there is at least 1/a few specific Troika refrences?

    Looser has to quote the bet in his signature or something similiar.
    ^ Top  
  12. Sannom Educated

    Sannom
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Refer to IronicNeurotic's post above, he explains it better.
    ^ Top  
  13. circ Arcane

    circ
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    9,417
    Location:
    Great Pacific Garbage Patch
    No no. That wasn't Feargus original intent. I don't know what to call you other than an Obsidian apologist.

    Anyway, how is NWN2 just half a SLAM DUNK? It used the Aurora engine and all the art assets were pulled from peoples asses, as first time modders could outdo what it did. Half the soundtrack was recycled. Extremely short release cycle. Sounds like a full SLAM DUNK to me.

    AP used the Unreal engine, art assets almost ripped pixel by pixel from Mass Effect. Tiresome level design. Short release cycle again. SLAM DUNK.

    DS3 - crap, short release cycle. SLAM DUNK.

    SP RPG - it will be out in a year. Or canceled. Possible SLAM DUNK.
    ^ Top  
  14. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    I called it half because its still debatable. And if a game is "crap" in your eyes has nothing, absolutly nothing to do with it beeing a slam-dunk. That doesn't even make fucking sense.

    I'm pretty sure you have no idea what was the original intent.

    So, really. Just shut it.

    Edit: A slam dunk is when everythings handed to you and you just have to get it in. The Slam Dunk is a buisness tactic by Feargus to get high sales while minimizing all possible costs.
    ^ Top  
  15. J_C Could be Matt Barton. Maybe. Patron The Real Fanboy

    J_C
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,036
    Location:
    Hungary
    Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
    SLAM DUNK here, SLAM DUNK there... Could someone tell me what SLAM DUNK means? I think I am falling behind in the language evolution race.
    ^ Top  
  16. circ Arcane

    circ
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    9,417
    Location:
    Great Pacific Garbage Patch
    Ok, let's do DS3, as crap isn't apt enough a description for some people.

    Original engine, but with a wank camera to save resources. I don't know what the engine is cabable of, but let's look at what they threw into DS3. Recycled art resources. Every single bandit mob and there are a lot of them, uses the same resources, from model, textures to animations, and most of the time there aren't even animations for some pretty important things like hit feedback. Towns and houses are there just for scenery, and in every case, are copy-paste jobs. Now this could be said for a lot of games, but you know, it depends on the design, and I'm not sure any went into towns like Stonebridge, with the exact same female model and goblin model running around in repeating scenery. The same goes for the very spartan outdoors areas. The only place with any thought seemed to be the ghost mansion, but that quest is probably still bugged. The combat effects seemed to be clip-art, and the so-called advanced combat consisted of spamming dodge and hitting the other guy until your specials filled up, at which point you hit a special and repated the process. There's plenty more, but I hope that clears up crap for you.
    ^ Top  
  17. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Yes, DSIII was a very cost efficent project. Still not a Slam Dunk as all of that stuff still had to be created and wasn't copied from previous sources.

    Also I disagree with half of that and the other half is in a lot of games. Repeating models isn't exactly the most unique thing ever.
    ^ Top  
  18. Vault Dweller Ubersturmfuhrer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    22,685
    Location:
    Vault 13
    Feargus: "That brings us to June of 2001. We then tried to ramp up TORN, because it was obviously in trouble and pretty much everyone that wasn't working on the new game went to work on that project. Then with Interplay's financial problems, we layed some people off and cancelled TORN. So that I could retain as much of Black Isle as I could, I had to come up with a project that could be finished relatively quickly and was a slam dunk with very little to no risk of it getting done on time. That project is the Monroe project [Icewind Dale 2] which we are announcing within the week."
    ^ Top  
  19. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    I remember the "slam dunk" comment beeing older than that. (Pre-2000)

    Otherwise I completly spanked there and thought about something else.


    But, in that case. Which Obsidian projects were slam-dunks?

    KOTOR2 = Time-problems
    NWN2 = Time-problems
    Alpha Protocol = HUGE time problems
    New Vegas = Possible Slam Dunk (Though Ulysseus who was a big part of the main game got cut out. So, time problems.)
    DSIII = Slam Dunk
    South Park RPG = No idea

    That means DSIII was the only Slam Dunk so far?

    Edit: Not even DSIII in that case as better Multiplayer/PC-Controls fell out of the time table.

    So, no Slam Dunk at all?
    ^ Top  
  20. Jaesun Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    29,492
    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
    The thing right now with Obsidian is now they have:

    1. The Onyx engine. It is complete.
    2. They can now take offers and just re-tool and add art assets and levels as required for the game being made.
    3. With dev time significantly slashed because of the Onyx engine, they can now make games more cheaply (very appealing to a Publisher).

    Them making this SP game is actually a slam dunk. And this bodes well for more titles from them.

    Hopefully they can actually DO a deep tactical party based cRPG along the lines of say Icewind Dale 3 as they can now pitch offers that are very appealing to Publishers. Provided that is the type of game Obsidian would like to do.......
    ^ Top  
  21. Vault Dweller Ubersturmfuhrer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    22,685
    Location:
    Vault 13
    No slam dunks at all, unless you count the DLCs.
    ^ Top  
  22. Dicksmoker Cipher

    Dicksmoker
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2008
    Messages:
    7,849
    1eyedking: TOTAL SHIT.
    ^ Top  
  23. Vault Dweller Ubersturmfuhrer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    22,685
    Location:
    Vault 13
    Um, no.

    You put too much emphasis on having an engine. Obsidian had Aurora, Odyssey, and whatever FO3 engine was called, plus the art assets, character, combat, and other systems that came with them. Didn't make these games "slam dunks", did they?

    The SP game will have different, well, pretty much everything, so it's a LOT of work, no matter how you look at it.

    You can't use "deep tactical RPG" and "very appealing to publishers" in the same sentence.
    ^ Top  
  24. Awor Szurkrarz Arcane

    Awor Szurkrarz
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Messages:
    19,779
    Codex 2012
    There are some RPGs with deep tactical combat besides JA2?
    ^ Top  
  25. IronicNeurotic Arbiter

    IronicNeurotic
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    Anthony if you are still reading. How did the deal come to be?

    THQ asked or did the South Park guys want you too?
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above links helps us pay the hosting bills)