The Denuvo DRM Thread

[Mustawd]

That's why I have little remorse about pirating. Pirate first, ask questions later, and if the game is good, reward the developer.

Agree with this. To me it never was about remorse (I have little when it comes to piracy), just the fact that people have the strange attitude (to me) that you're not somehow stealing content. But it goes back to cultural differences in terms of what is morally ethical and what isn't. I'd argue that if every movie or game was made by small indie developers, which made the crime more personal, that attitude would change. as it is now, it's much easier to not think about it as stealing when you're downloading a crappy 10 hr AAA game with crappy DLCs from a crappy company like EA.


It's all a moot argument anyway. In 1.5 years there will be no more piracy

 

[ArchAngel]

My moral compass has gone away as soon as I was old enough to understand in what shithole I was born and that all the rules and regulations are here to keep people on top on top (that includes countries as well).

So until the world becomes a ST utopia, the lawmakers and licence holders can all jump off a cliff for all I care. I will pirate whatever I want, and I will buy those that I think deserve to be bought when I feel I can afford it.

 

[J_C]

Artist paints a picture. Artist sells the picture for money. I don't pay for the picture, but I get a hold of it anyway. Now I own the picture, but the artist had not been paid a cent. - Stealing

Developer makes a game. Developer sellt the game for money. I don't pay for the game, but I get a hold of it anyway. Now I own the game, but the developer had not been paid a cent. - Stealing.


Arguing that piracy is not stealing is literally one of the dumbest thing ever. Sure, legislations need to change, but until that happens piracy is stealing.

It is not by accident that we are talking about stealing corporated data, or stealing corporate records. Just because something is not tangible, you can steal it. It might be a different kind of theft, but a theft nonetheless. Of course Pirate King Excidium will come and try to prove otherwise.

Such a terrible example and comparison.

What you should have said is Artists makes a picture, puts it in a gallery and charges people to see it. You enter inside without paying, see the picture and leave.
Then compare it with second example.

Everything else is you being a dumbfuck.

Way to go calling me a dumbfuck while giving an even worse example. When you go into the gallery and leave, you are not keeping a copy of the picture. If going by your example, it would go like this:

Tha artist makes a picture and invites people to his gallery. In the gallery, you can ask the artist to make an exact copy of the picture, and you pay for it. But you just go into the gallery and grab one of the copies lying around, and run off.

Everything else is you being a bigger dumbfuck.

You are not just a dumbfuck, you are biggest dumbfuck that ever lived. You get +10 dumbfuck points for totally not understand what I was even talking about.
Come back once your IQ gets over room temperature (in celsius).

Yeah, yeah. Same old story again. Idiot runs out of arguments, and starts insulting me and thinks that if he mentions the cuck tag, that somehow validates his retarded opinion.

His Cuck tag is worse so it is not a problem.

Really, I'd rather be a cuck than a dumbfuck like yourself. My tag just means that my woman is fucked by someone else, meanwhile you are a mentally handicapped person.

My moral compass has gone away as soon as I was old enough to understand in what shithole I was born and that all the rules and regulations are here to keep people on top on top (that includes countries as well).

So until the world becomes a ST utopia, the lawmakers and licence holders can all jump off a cliff for all I care. I will pirate whatever I want, and I will buy those that I think deserve to be bought when I feel I can afford it.

And thus, you are stealing. You are not doing it wrong, I myself stole games, music and movies when I was a student.

 

[Excidium II]

Buying with the intent to "support the developer" doesn't make much sense to me. Unless you buy 1000 copies or something. At the scale even indies sell, 1 copy less or more makes zero difference.

And indie stuff will be on bundles for pocket change sooner or later.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yeah, yeah. Same old story again. Idiot runs out of arguments, and starts insulting me and thinks that if he mentions the cuck tag, that somehow validates his retarded opinion.

His Cuck tag is worse so it is not a problem.

Really, I'd rather be a cuck than a dumbfuck like yourself. My tag just means that my woman is fucked by someone else, meanwhile you are a mentally handicapped person.

My moral compass has gone away as soon as I was old enough to understand in what shithole I was born and that all the rules and regulations are here to keep people on top on top (that includes countries as well).

So until the world becomes a ST utopia, the lawmakers and licence holders can all jump off a cliff for all I care. I will pirate whatever I want, and I will buy those that I think deserve to be bought when I feel I can afford it.

And thus, you are stealing. You are not doing it wrong, I myself stole games, music and movies when I was a student.

I see you are back. But since you are still defending your dumbfuck example, come back later. You IQ is still around 22.
EDIT: I could explain it to you like you are a retard, but I am having more fun letting you out yourself as one.

 

[J_C]

Yeah, yeah. Same old story again. Idiot runs out of arguments, and starts insulting me and thinks that if he mentions the cuck tag, that somehow validates his retarded opinion.

His Cuck tag is worse so it is not a problem.

Really, I'd rather be a cuck than a dumbfuck like yourself. My tag just means that my woman is fucked by someone else, meanwhile you are a mentally handicapped person.

My moral compass has gone away as soon as I was old enough to understand in what shithole I was born and that all the rules and regulations are here to keep people on top on top (that includes countries as well).

So until the world becomes a ST utopia, the lawmakers and licence holders can all jump off a cliff for all I care. I will pirate whatever I want, and I will buy those that I think deserve to be bought when I feel I can afford it.

And thus, you are stealing. You are not doing it wrong, I myself stole games, music and movies when I was a student.

I see you are back. But since you are still defending your dumbfuck example, come back later. You IQ is still around 22.
EDIT: I could explain it to you like you are a retard, but I am having more fun letting you out yourself as one.

It's alright Archangel, you can't win every argument. I understand you can't talk yourself out of this, it is a tough topic.

 

[Raghar]

Topic is simple. Is he disabled, game developer, or poor long term unemployed? He should pirate. Does he have sensible regular salary, it's his money and his problem what he would do with his money.

Anyway. I looked at current state of protection and found Denuvo crossed line. If you want to get rid of games from legal users, you can. The most beautiful thing, it's possible by third party.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Buying with the intent to "support the developer" doesn't make much sense to me. Unless you buy 1000 copies or something. At the scale even indies sell, 1 copy less or more makes zero difference.

And indie stuff will be on bundles for pocket change sooner or later.

As someone who has been "stealing" games (lol) for over 25 years, I've seen the path that the gaming industry has taken to reach where it is today. It's a path full of twists and turns, and a lot of those turns are due to the attitude that you just demonstrated toward games and their developers.

The blame isn't all on us, though.

The simple, core fact of the matter is that video games, in general, are overpriced. And developers/publishers/retailers, following human nature, realized that if they can sell a game for $20, they can also sell it for $40. And us consumers, following human nature, realized that if we can get it for less than $20, then we will. Especially since decades of experience has taught us that the odds of us getting away with copyright infringement are pretty good, particularly when it comes to video games.

But since games are, and always will be, a luxury product, there isn't as much pressure from society to keep the price fair as with necessities. We don't have any consumer protection groups, and we all remember the laughs we had from seeing the failed efforts of gamers trying to boycott a game or its developer.

So the whole thing has become a race: Developers and publishers trying to milk us for as much money as they can, and us depriving them of as much money as we can.

IIRC, piracy wasn't a thing until floppy drives and cassette drives were part of personal computers in the early 1980s. With the arrival of writable media, the need quickly arose for some kind of verification scheme so that people paid for the game instead of just copying it from a friend, so we were hit with manual lookups, copy protection sheets, codewheels, data encryption, bloated game development to make the games too big to pirate (yes, really), serial keys, on-disc DRM, online DRM, mandatory installation of third-party software, and finally the mandatory usage of third-party clients. And that's just to get people to buy the base game. Then there were the basic marketing ploys like limited shelf life, budget re-releases, compilation releases, data disks, optional expansion packs, add-ons, voice packs, shareware releases, mandatory expansion packs, the abandonment of physical retail copies, crowdfunding, DLC and finally Early Access - before the market went full ouroboros and has gone back to shunting games en masse to budget prices at the earliest possible convenience.

But it wasn't enough. It was never enough, and it never will be.

For all of these "locks" were made by humans, therefore humans can break them as well. That is why Denuvo will be cracked, and whatever will replace Denuvo will be cracked as well. The cycle goes on, the race continues.

But from my "tl;dr" comes a question: Could we gamers have done more to support our beloved developers? No, let me rephrase that question...Should we gamers have done more?

EDIT: Text cleanup.

 

[Mustawd]

But since games are, and always will be, a luxury product, there isn't as much pressure from society to keep the price fair as with necesseties. We don't have any consumer protection groups, and we all remember the laughs we had from seeing the failed efforts of gamers trying to boycott a game or its developer.

I think it's less about society and just a reality that gamers are willing to buy these games at XYZ price. It's just the market. Why would there be a need for consumer protection? What would they even do? "Hey, your prices are too high!"? That's a really weird argument. Why not do that for houses? Cars? Food? Clothes? Computers? Jewelry? Shoes? Sunglasses, etc etc etc.

So the whole thing has become a race: Developers and publishers trying to milk us for as much money as they can, and us depriving them of as much money as we can.

This is almost every single product in every single market.

But from my "tl;dr" comes a question: Could we gamers have done more to support our beloved developers? No, let me rephrase that question...Should we gamers have done more?

I'm confused. What does your question have to do with your post? I mean it kind of lacks context. What exactly did gamers not do enough?

EDIT: At the end of the day piracy exists just like any black market exists: Because people will pay less than retail if they can. It's just that in the case of online piracy, the people bringing products to market have decided that they'd rather have products disseminated for free rather than making a profit of it.

For example, pirated/bootleg selling of movies still exists on the streets for people who are either computer illiterate or cannot afford a PC with internet. At my old apartment (a few years back) there was a Mexican restaurant across the street where a Mexican lady used to sell bootlegged copies of movies almost every day. And she made money.

 

[Excidium II]

For all of these "locks" were made by humans, therefore humans can break them as well. That is why Denuvo will be cracked, and whatever will replace Denuvo will be cracked as well. The cycle goes on, the race continues.

I'm not sure how possible a Denuvo crack would be, but as long as the game is playable with steam, uplay etc emulators with no bugs then whatever.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I think it's less about society and just a reality that gamers are willing to buy these games at XYZ price. It's just the market. Why would there be a need for consumer protection? What would they even do? "Hey, your prices are too high!"? That's a really weird argument. Why not do that for houses? Cars? Food? Clothes? Computers? Jewelry? Shoes? Sunglasses, etc etc etc.

But we do, numbnuts. If you buy a car and it blows up when you kick the rear tires, what do you think happens? "Tough luck, buy our next car instead!"

What happens when you buy a game and it doesn't start up? Not much you can do but ask for a refund. Except Steam, to name an example, didn't allow for that until just recently. Valve had to be taken to court to make them offer the most rudimentary form of customer service.

What if a game works, but wipes your hard drive for some bizarre reason? "We're sorry about that, please buy our next product!" Again, ask for a refund, it's not like you're gonna get any compensation unless you drag their asses to court.

I'm not saying that games as a product need to be policed - but there should be some minimum standard in place, one that is higher than what is currently on offer.

So the whole thing has become a race: Developers and publishers trying to milk us for as much money as they can, and us depriving them of as much money as we can.

This is almost every single product in every single market.

I see that I didn't make myself clear enough here, my bad. What holds true, in regards to your words, is that sellers try to sell it at as high a price as possible, while buyers try to buy it at as low a price as possible.

The point I was trying to say that instead of paying a lower price, gamers tend not to pay anything at all.

I'm confused. What does your question have to do with your post? I mean it kind of lacks context. What exactly did gamers not do enough?

I'll admit that this question came as an afterthought, and I left it in there hoping that a discussion about it will take place, and that there is no bridge to connect the piracy discussion with it.

It's like this: The history of gaming is littered with defunct developers and publishers. They lost the race that I mentioned. I'm not saying that it's the fault of us cheapskate gamers that they all bit the dust, but if we had not been trying to rip them off, would they still be around and making quality games today?

Look at how some of these developers ended up. They not only lost their companies, they lost their jobs, their livelyhood AND signed away the rights to all of their creations. To be honest, if they're stupid enough to get themselves into these kind of circumstances, what good is one more $20 gonna do for them?

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Wasn't the new Tomb Rider crack an actual crack and not a bypass? It is actually really hard to do though.

And in piracy discussion, there is a difference between sharing a film and piracy. Say I saw a film with my friend. The ownership of the film (the DVD/blueray) is still my friend's. If let's say, I want to let my brother watch it, unless I actually borrowed the physical film I would not be able to do that.

Piracy on the other hand, is a person having ownership of something he is not supposed to have. Besides the scene who bought it to crack it, every subsequent people who pirate could let other people "borrow" the product from even though they do not have an actual ownership of said product.

Look, I pirate game a lot. I didn't even buy one before like 2 -3 years ago after Steam have a regional price for my country, and even then it just like 10-20% of the game I played. But this thing where people try to justify their action by trying to have a moral highground is ridiculous. Some of you even speak/write like a fucking lawyer trying to get around a definition of word to get a criminal out of jail.

 

[Excidium II]

Wasn't the new Tomb Rider crack an actual crack and not a bypass? It is actually really hard to do though.

Denuvo is still there as far as I know.

 

[Mustawd]

I'm not saying that games as a product need to be policed - but there should be some minimum standard in place, one that is higher than what is currently on offer.

The point I was trying to say that instead of paying a lower price, gamers tend not to pay anything at all.

Gotcha

I'll admit that this question came as an afterthought, and I left it in there hoping that a discussion about it will take place, and that there is no bridge to connect the piracy discussion with it.

It's like this: The history of gaming is littered with defunct developers and publishers. They lost the race that I mentioned. I'm not saying that it's the fault of us cheapskate gamers that they all bit the dust, but if we had not been trying to rip them off, would they still be around and making quality games today?

Look at how some of these developers ended up. They not only lost their companies, they lost their jobs, their livelyhood AND signed away the rights to all of their creations. To be honest, if they're stupid enough to get themselves into these kind of circumstances, what good is one more $20 gonna do for them?

I think the prevalence of DRM and platform-only games (Uplay, Origin, etc) are a direct or at least a large result of piracy. Businesses react to consumer behavior and/or the business environment. It's just plain cause and effect. I think the clearest example of this is the fast food industry's reaction to higher minimum wag ein NY. All of a sudden labor is more expensive. What do they do? They decide to go ahead and replace some of the order takers with kiosks instead.

Sure, some of this would probably happen regardless of external factors. After all, gaming platforms allow for a variety of advantages to the dev. However, I think it's easy to argue that piracy was a big factor in pushing the industry to what we have now.

EDIT 2: Another example is Adobe Photoshop

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Denuvo is still there as far as I know.

Yeah, it is taking long time to crack but I wouldn't say no piracy in 2 years. Much much slower maybe.

 

[Excidium II]

Denuvo is still there as far as I know.

Yeah, it is taking long time to crack but I wouldn't say no piracy in 2 years. Much much slower maybe.

No I mean, Denuvo is still present in the ROTTR executable.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

No I mean, Denuvo is still present in the ROTTR executable.

Ah really? I was only read the thing on some news and reddit so I don;t actually know. Well that's worrying.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah. But it's already better than the previous method since it does the job of fooling Denuvo without connecting to any server so they can't patch it on their end. (The previous one exploited a bug with steam using the D44M demo)

 

[Ismaul]

It only requires someone to call sharing "piracy" for everyone to believe that it's stealing.

Truth is, sharing is good. Spread information and culture around, more efficiency, less waste, creates social relationships, etc. In an ideal world, everyone would be sharing.

The fact that sharing is considered stealing and is made illegal is nothing but an artifact of our economical system, based on selling a quantity of physical goods, and goes to show that system's limitations and how it is becoming more and more obsolete.

Now, since we live in this outdated and inefficient economical system, and some people depend on selling copies of existing virtual goods to make a living, it can be morally wrong. But how wrong depends on who you are, what is your economical status, and how much the people that would have lost a sale, if at all, depend on it to continue to make their living.

Since it's not an absolute wrong, because sharing is morally good, then it's something that's wrong on a case by case basis, and can be argued about. Of course, absolutists for whom illegal = wrong will always consider it wrong, but those are rather shortsighted and lacking in life experience.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Now, since we live in this outdated and inefficient economical system, and some people depend on selling copies of existing virtual goods to make a living, it can be morally wrong. But how wrong depends on who you are, what is your economical status, and how much the people that would have lost a sale, if at all, depend on it to continue to make their living.

This is actually the problem. While sharing is good, systematic piracy nowdays have one products bought for practically millions of people. Most people who argue like you "But Sharing is absolutely good!" doesn't take account that your sharing actually threaten the livelihood of people.

In your ideal world nobody will want to do with any no physical good production because anything not physical should be shared. It is just sharing culture after all.

Now if we are talking about an ideal world, people would also share their earnings to honor the work of people producing the non-physical goods. Unfortunately the very people who argue "Sharing is caring" will not be doing that because deep down the arguments is used to cover up their entitlement. "What you write song for a living? Making a video fucking games? I am an engineer/accountant/yada2 that uphold this society! I am entitled to entertainment!"

 

[Damned Registrations]

You do realize people release artwork (including games) for reasons other than personal profit, and people who pirate games buy them as well? Which invalidates basically your entire post.

The only people who really suffer from piracy are people that hide their shitty products behind good marketing. Fuck them and fuck their marketers. Everyone with a decent product gets plenty of profit off the word of mouth generated from piracy. Feel free to continue arguing that people aren't entitled to know the quality of the goods they are purchasing.

 

[Destroid]

Look, I pirate game a lot. I didn't even buy one before like 2 -3 years ago after Steam have a regional price for my country, and even then it just like 10-20% of the game I played. But this thing where people try to justify their action by trying to have a moral highground is ridiculous. Some of you even speak/write like a fucking lawyer trying to get around a definition of word to get a criminal out of jail.

In most (all?) of the world the police won't knock on your door for downloading a videogame and you can't go to jail. The copyright holders must sue you. Measures involving the police are currently withheld for 'commercial scale' enterprises, although our friends in the UK are trying very hard to change the definition of that to include the casual pirate who downloads a few videogames.

 

[agentorange]

The fucking horror having to pay to support your hobby. If you can't afford a game then don't buy it.

 

[Mustawd]

You do realize people release artwork (including games) for reasons other than personal profit, and people who pirate games buy them as well? Which invalidates basically your entire post.

No it does not. There's no way to quantify how many people buy these games after pirating them. But whatever. It's a tired argument that's built on a house of cards.

The only people who really suffer from piracy are people that hide their shitty products behind good marketing. Fuck them and fuck their marketers. Everyone with a decent product gets plenty of profit off the word of mouth generated from piracy. Feel free to continue arguing that people aren't entitled to know the quality of the goods they are purchasing.

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

We never see eye to eye on these kinds of arguments DR. At least you're consistent tho.

 

[Damned Registrations]