Murderous Psychopaths Needed!

[Shadenuat]

You gotta be fucking kiddin me

(I demand this phrase as a steam achivo for killing Agath with knives)

Spoiler

I had neither helmet nor mindproof perk and no canister

: Shit, ropes with little metal balls on them and kitchen knives! My only weakness!!

Final stats (-3 STR for PWA):

Spoiler

Equipment that I would have used instead PWA, for most game used 12 AP blue steel armors and Champion's helmet:

Spoiler

So about the build of V-Amazon 2.0

In 2 words: Ranged Daggers. So it's like Daggers but ranged - lots of versatility, attacks and crits.
Main advantage and idea: you care fuck about enemy dodge, block or armor. In the beginning of the game I went for 6 Throwing and could Arterial Strike with ~50-60% chance anyone in Teron. And I kept it that way by pumping Throwing to about 9 and then going for Block.
If it has high defense/whatever armor you can kill it with fast strikes that ignore armor. I killed Zameddi demon with fast strikes, each doing 4-5 dmg ignoring his defences.
If it's armored you ignore armor like 8 out of 10 hits. If it's without helmet you crit in the head. If it has helmet you can arterial strike. In the endgame aim: torso can be used too for some 2-3 hit instant kills with lowering CON.

In the update, it feels like they improved all crits. Arterial strike now does 4 damage per tick and stacks. Aim: head can knockdown for 2 turns. So against multiple opponents Arterial can work like poison if you have +CS knives and 6+ CS.

You have 10 Block and shields of your choice - buckler for highest THC, cavalry for balance and until block gets to 8+ you can use heaviest shield to make yourself immune to archers. So you are ranged character but armored like heavy guy.
The heavier the shield is the bigger is chance for new AP2 knockdown that can throw enemy back - so I suggest Cavalry Shield, perfect balance. With heaviest shield you have 90%+ chance to push enemy away.
Block was the real reason behind Agath's downfall - I kept away from his melee and blocked missile attacks instead.

You can abuse Liquid Fire perfectly - ranged attacks + Block.

Also, Throwing gets +3 THC for every 1 point of Bow AND Crossbow. But I couldn't hoard enough points to make use of it.

tl;dr so we have Block against ranged, we attack from distance, we have very high THC, lots of AP, crits and... we ignore DR of the enemy.
...boy, that actually makes us *ideal* match up against Agathoth

Main disadvantages of the build:
- It is a late bloomer. Late late. Late late late late late bloomer. Like, 9 Throwing, 9 Block, 6+ Critical Strike, 8+ Crafting bloomer. You are what your missiles are, and you want +THC, +Crit, +Passive knives. If there is choice, go for +THC, +Passive.
As you aquire your 10 Crafting Blue Steel Knives and PWA and good CS, you become something unique and alien in a world of AoD - a ranged shield-tank that hits with aim: attacks all the time, crits all the time and shreds enemy armor to pieces.
- Until then enjoy absolutely ridiculously low damage output. You have shittiest damage per round of them all. See how your 3 arterial strikes connect each and every one yet Throwing passive ability fails, enemy armor absorbing all damage, you doing 0 damage per round. Or miss 4 times in a row with 80% hit chance, RNG fucking you over.
- Unplayable without Crafting. You may need 50-60 knives per fight. You can run out of ammunition at some points in the game. You will face constant inventory management problems.
- Can't abuse Poison.



...shit, I even forgot to use crafted Meteor Knives.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Think: you come up against Antidas, and you die horribly. If you are a filthy casual, you quit and you move on to Fallout 4. Otherwise, you think: what can I do to beat these guys? I can't just swing my sword. What can I do? And that's the kind of challenges that push you to finally try that net thing, scour the merchants trying to see if bombs or bolas will help, thinking more carefully about how to manage space, etc. If you beat Antidas on the first try, then none of that happens, and you just push through, and think "oh it's an OK game whatever" without ever realising all that you're missing.

The very original Antidas was too tough in the sense that even veteran players with a full fighter character could run aground in what is a main questline fight. But right now it is too easy.

I think you would actually agree with me if you weren't having such a tough time with fights personally. Remember: if you take Antidas and Dellar out of the fight, the IG allies - the INT 6 ones at any rate - can basically kill everybody themselves. Antidas and Dellar are strong, but that basically means you only ever need to take those two on - or hold out long enough against them.

I aggree, and that's exactly what happened - i did straightforward fighting (i.e. just position and swing on guys with best possible balance of THC/damage) and died 4-5 times in a row without even feeling that i "could" do it. I am sorry, but it's still a tough fight - like i also said: i only could win by combination of:

1. normal gear + 3 CS (-30HP on Antidas): tank Antidas/Captain/Dellar (and spearman also hits you...) - then run away with <10hp, scream like a bitch doing so, watch from the corner as IG team does the rest
2. nice gear (loot from Bandits/Outpost, 6INT IG gear is not that great) - tank Antidas/Captain/Dellar more comfortably, then retreat to your line with "survivable" amount of HP and continue participating in fight

So exactly the maneuver you suggested. But it requires a couple of rounds of tanking and then some smart movement. Works for me - remember it's a mandatory IG quest line. If you just a fighter, not a lover - no way to talk to Antidas.

 

[hivemind]

the INT 6 ones at any rate

I thought the two sets of allies were removed and now the benefit for having 6 int is that you get the neurostim + shroom pot combo

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Works for me - remember it's a mandatory IG quest line. If you just a fighter, not a lover - no way to talk to Antidas.

You can talk to him and avoid the fight with only 3 in persuasion and trading, the training you get afterwards is a bit worse though (+5 to attack and defense instead of +10). If you can't spend even that much (and you're not a fighter) you can still win the fight by using 3-4 against Dellar.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I thought the two sets of allies were removed and now the benefit for having 6 int is that you get the neurostim + shroom pot combo

+5 to attack as well, used to be +3 before the latest update IIRC. Aside from checks, PER is really a non-issue for a IG playthrough.

 

[Lurker King]

(I demand this phrase as a steam achivo for killing Agath with knives)

And I demand your build as a new challenger.

 

[GuiltyofBeingTrite]

come at me bor, I EARNED these kills.

 

[Lurker King]

Are you making the whole CON reduces armor penalty thing up? Because I can't see anything about it in the game.

CON should diminish armor penalties.

It already does, by adding defense.

I'm right! Suck it up, dodgers!

 

[hivemind]

But it also increases the defense for dodgers too ? Like I, and others, have been aware and saying this entire time ?

You should honestly just play the game more before getting into systematic arguments about it.

 

[Lurker King]

But it also increases the defense for dodgers too ? Like I, and others, have been aware and saying this entire time ?

But the point was whether I was inventing stuff, in case you haven't noticed.

You should honestly just play the game more before getting into systematic arguments about it.

But as a matter of fact, I did play the game. Blockers are unstoppable!

 

[ZagorTeNej]

But the point was whether I was inventing stuff, in case you haven't noticed.

Yeah but you were still wrong to a degree, CON doesn't reduce armor penalty, it gives the same benefit (+2 to defense) whether you're wearing a 30 defense penalty armor, are naked or wearing a 0 defense penalty armor. As it stands now it's very debatable whether CON benefits dodgers or blockers more.

I finished the game with this build:

Spoiler

And he was near un-hittable (in addition to having survivability that comes from having a lot of HPs), even Agatoth was missing him quite a bit. I don't think he died once.


I realize they were trying to make CON more useful but I don't like the current version where it adds flat defense (in addition to usual things, HP, poison reduction etc.), I'd prefer something like adding damage reduction or even what you were previously thinking it does, reducing armor penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, high CON should plain synergize better with a blocker build. Can't make a squishy dodger archetype anymore.

But as a matter of fact, I did play the game. Blockers are unstoppable!

Depends on the build, situation, gear etc. but yeah there are situations where blockers shine, they're fun to play.

 

[hivemind]

I finished the game with this build:

Post a screenie with your cursor over you defense rating pls.

As a side question do you get combat training bonuses for each individual kill that you can get in combat or just for winning in the various combat encounters ? How does the whole 'free' combat training system work ?

Elhoim Vault Dweller

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Post a screenie with your cursor over you defense rating pls.

Sure.

Spoiler

As a side question do you get combat training bonuses for each individual kill that you can get in combat or just for winning in the various combat encounters ? How does the whole 'free' combat training system work ?

Elhoim Vault Dweller

I think it's supposed to give you +1 to attack and defense every 10th kill but it doesn't work for every encounter in my experience.

 

[hivemind]

Thanks!

I think it's supposed to give you +1 to attack and defense every 10th kill but it doesn't work for every encounter in my experience.

Wonder if friendlies count for this too

 

[Eyestabber]

My take on combat so far:

Weapons
Axe: the overall BEST weapon for combat builds. Hybrids have better options, but when you just want to murder everyone, the axe is your best friend. The passive is non-situational, which means it works against everyone, every time. Also, axes have high hardness, which makes armor denting easier.

Swords and daggers: very similar weapons. I find the sword to be a bit more consistent, since it relies more in direct damage. The dagger is a DEADLY, amazing weapon IF (and only IF) you invest into Critical Strike. Without it, I'd stick with the sword. My first hybrid was a dagger thief and I had very little trouble doing the entire arena thing, challengers included. But you NEED that CS. The sword, on the other hand, does MORE with LESS. Sword/Dodge is very effective (Dreamweaver FTW!) for its cost. It should be noted that the Gladius counters with a power attack, while daggers counter with a flurry (useless if none of the 3 strikes is a crit, but deadly if all 3 are).

A note on armor denting: dagger aimed torso has a chance to reduce 2 DR (dagger passive also applies to armor denting). So after reducing the enemy's DR to zero, he goes down REALLY fast with a sequence of fast attacks.

Spears: I had very little success with spears, since with my first combat build I went with the obvious choice (axe). But I believe spears can be amazing kiting weapons, given the right build. Positioning, nets and liquid fire oughta turn a spear wielder into a fucking nightmare. Only use them after you really understand the wonders of consumables in AoD.

Hammer: Every hammer has ultra high hardness + a passive that reduces DR, so I'm guessing hammers are amazing for tough fights involving heavy armor. Sadly, there are several tough fights with light armor dodgers on which the hammer is of little help. So...hammer is kindda subpar, unless there is a hammer specific strategy I'm unaware of.

Crossbow: amazing for ranged hybrids. Gonna write more as soon as I finish my space marine (PA + bolter) playtrough

Bows/throwing: never used them. Crossbow always seemed like the better choice.

Dodge vs Block: Dodge is superior in every way, it's not even funny. Block should have better synergy with heavy armor, but as things stand right now, it doesn't. Every penalty and every bonus applies to both dodge and block equally.

The only thing block has going on for it is that +15 base, which is easily lost because of the insane penalties. The only way I can imagine block being viable is ubber late game, coupled with crafting to make a shield with (almost) no penalties. And even then, dodge still has the counter thing.

Leather vs metal: leather armor is great for early game, since it provides more DR with less penalties. Seems like the logical choice for fighters with no crafting. But late game a well crafted Manica is better than leather armor in every way.

Light vs heavy armor: light armor is clearly better, since the difference in DR is small, but the armor penalties for heavy armor are HUGE. There are also several ways of reducing DR, which reduces further the advantage of heavy armor.

Consumables: they are VERY strong, but I hope they don't get nerfed. I like the fact that consumables are the "advanced mode" of AoD combat. Isolating people with liquid fire then murdering them one by one is VERY rewarding.

Combat builds vs Hybrids: no matter how many tricks you pull, one thing is certain: a combat build is ALWAYS better than a hybrid. I think VD hit his mark here. You can win the same fights as a hybrid, with more consumables and more reloads, but make no mistake: a pure fighter will ALWAYS have an easier time.

 

[Tigranes]

Bows are supergood in a general-purpose way, rather like Axes.

Dodge v Block mileage differs for different people and playstyles and builds, so it's rather disingenious to suggest dodge is always the better pick. It says more about what you've tried and what works for you, than the system. I would never argue that block is better than dodge on an ultimate number-cruncher level, but there are many characters that can be very successful with block. And just like a spear user who is generally less efficient than an axe user but finds battles where he breezes past where the latter fails, sometimes block characters have high survivability in situations where the dodger would flounder.

Hammer & Block is one example that actually works quite well, because with Honour-Bound etc you can easily achieve ~20DR upon block and be confident of blocking something like half the hits, including just about every projectile. That means in fights where other characters have to decide between chasing the crossbowman or risking heavy hits/knockbacks (e.g. Power Armour fight, Miltiades rescue fight in Maadoran, the Raiders fight inside Amaranthus vault), the blocker can literally ignore the ranged attackers forever and expect precisely 0 HP loss. Hammer also works well with block because, especially with the unique hammer (Perforator?), you can expect to shed the enemy's DR down to nothing in a couple of turns while your own high DR means you lose nearly zero HP.

In situations where you can maneuvre away from being surrounded by enemies or ensure that your dodge is always good enough, the dodger is happy and does very well. In situations where you have no choice but to take 7-8 hits per turn, especially ranged or high damage axes, the blocker can offer a security whereas the dodger is frantically hoping for that animation to fire.

Block can also be a good investment for hybrids, because the dodger must always invest in SP to stay ahead of the game in terms of the defence rating. The blocker isn't quite as reliant on that, so e.g. 5 Block can be enough for every fight a hybrid gets into in Maadoran.

Also uh...

Combat builds vs Hybrids: no matter how many tricks you pull, one thing is certain: a combat build is ALWAYS better than a hybrid. I think VD hit his mark here. You can win the same fights as a hybrid, with more consumables and more reloads, but make no mistake: a pure fighter will ALWAYS have an easier time.

Combat builds are better at combat than hybrids..... duh?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Dodge vs Block: Dodge is superior in every way, it's not even funny. Block should have better synergy with heavy armor, but as things stand right now, it doesn't. Every penalty and every bonus applies to both dodge and block equally.

Block has a natural defense bonus. Also:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/496880203081732547/

Combat builds vs Hybrids: no matter how many tricks you pull, one thing is certain: a combat build is ALWAYS better than a hybrid. I think VD hit his mark here. You can win the same fights as a hybrid, with more consumables and more reloads, but make no mistake: a pure fighter will ALWAYS have an easier time.

As intended.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't believe that combat builds are always superior - or at least massively superior. In AoD's system, for some weapons combat stats don't matter as much - 10 STR for a weapon that does 3-6 points of damage would turn into 1.5-2 points of extra damage.
In comparison, 10 Crafting sharpening stone would give us +5 flat damage.
Enemy stats and HP are generally same through the game, it's not like in D&D, where high level monsters have 200-300 HP and 20-25 STR would improve your damage for every attack you make. In D&D 18 or 20 STR on low levels allows you to literally 1-shot enemies even without crits - because it's +flat damage.

So, a guy with 10 STR is great if you can land a power hit from 2-handed axe, since it's more efficient to multiply high base damage, but what can a 10 INT guy do?
Well, he can invest into Crafting & Alchemy and get both of those very high way quicker than pure combat build and get extra THC, CS, passive chance & 10 dmg poison from there.
And high PER can allow aimed hits whereas STR-guy would rely on fast hits.
And let's not forget weapon passives, like Hammers have.

Then there's CON. I never played a character with CON higher than 6 and I won every fight and killed Agath a few times. Well maybe played one guy, 8 CON, didn't notice that much of a difference.

I think for combat build you want at least 9 DEX, 6+ STR and CON, and 6+ PER is nice. That's not a lot of points.

But it all comes to THC and damage, and hybrid can have THC and damage too. I think I can even bet that a 10 DEX 10 INT character could beat all fights and Agath if played right - and actually would have easier time at some points of the game, where poison+crafting would elevate him above other characters.
Who knows, maybe he'd even end up with a lot more points to play and his combat skills would be higher. An extra combat skill and/or 1-2 synergetic weapon skills would compensate lower stats with higher THC.

By the way, for these reasons and others, I believe that not every newbie would find AoD easier with pure combat build and that's why I said that dumb fighers are not very welcoming for newbies in AoD. Playing dumb fighter means you will have to fight through everything. To do that you need to know the game well. While other characters can fight battles they can win and avoid those that player feels are too hard for him.

tl;dr Combat build would be more effective than hybrid with weapons that rely on raw stats like axes, with others not as much.

 

[Jaedar]

Hammer & Block is one example that actually works quite well, because with Honour-Bound etc you can easily achieve ~20DR upon block and be confident of blocking something like half the hits, including just about every projectile. That means in fights where other characters have to decide between chasing the crossbowman or risking heavy hits/knockbacks (e.g. Power Armour fight, Miltiades rescue fight in Maadoran, the Raiders fight inside Amaranthus vault), the blocker can literally ignore the ranged attackers forever and expect precisely 0 HP loss.

Dodgers too can just equip a tower shield for that sweet defense vsRanged, and thereby ignoring ranged enemies.

Also I don't understand your points about "blockers can take hit whereas dodgers can't". That's not how the game works. Dodgers and blockers can wear just as heavy armor as they want, dodgers just tend to benefit more from the dodge chance than DR.

Literally the only advantage of block is the +15 to start with. That can be significant (especially for a hybrid?), but free counter attacks are insanely good. It scales to the amount of enemies(and fights with many enemies are always the hardest imo) in a way block doesn't.

 

[Tigranes]

+15 is significant for hybrids.

I do agree that block lost a lot of its edge when armour penalty was changed from dodge penalty to a general penalty (which still doesn't make sense to me). As I say, if forced to pick the 'best' one I'd pick dodge any day, and I have since Day 1. I'm just saying that block is far from useless and can be a good pick for many kinds of players.

Do shields have no downsides for dodgers? I swear they used to.

 

[Jaedar]

Do shields have no downsides for dodgers? I swear they used to.

Well, they have the same downside they do for blockers, armor penalty and THC penalty, plus taking up one of your arm slots.

 

[Shadenuat]

Dodgers too can just equip a tower shield for that sweet defense vsRanged, and thereby ignoring ranged enemies.

The logical suggestion for developers then would be to make +ranged def from shield depend on Block skill, +extra for shield size to make this skill better at something.

Also, how many types of success there are for Block? I take it for both Block&Dodge there are:
- Critical success (Glance/Dodge+Counter attack)
- Success (DR of shield added to DR/Dodge)
- Fail (Half-block?/???)
- Critical fail?

Perhaps Block should keep part of it's DR even on very low rolls compared to Dodge (actually, I always thought it's exactly how it works or at least should work, but you know them crits/axes/maces/armor piercing trololo I always damage you arrows).
Also Block may activate some sort of shield bash on Critical success.

 

[Eyestabber]

Combat builds vs Hybrids: no matter how many tricks you pull, one thing is certain: a combat build is ALWAYS better than a hybrid. I think VD hit his mark here. You can win the same fights as a hybrid, with more consumables and more reloads, but make no mistake: a pure fighter will ALWAYS have an easier time.

Maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I agree with this philosophy.

As for the block vs dodge, nigga pls. The +15 base and the vs ranged is the ONLY silver lining for blockers. If you think that is remotely comparable to counter attacks then you're out of your fucking mind. And if you think that makes up for the armor penalty + THC penalty shields impose then, well...

 

[hivemind]

armor penalty from shields doesn't stack with the one from armour IIRC

still DODGE PRIDE WORLD WIDE

 

[Eyestabber]

I don't believe that combat builds are always superior - or at least massively superior. In AoD's system, for some weapons combat stats don't matter as much - 10 STR for a weapon that does 3-6 points of damage would turn into 1.5-2 points of extra damage.
In comparison, 10 Crafting sharpening stone would give us +5 flat damage.
Enemy stats and HP are generally same through the game, it's not like in D&D, where high level monsters have 200-300 HP and 20-25 STR would improve your damage for every attack you make. In D&D 18 or 20 STR on low levels allows you to literally 1-shot enemies even without crits - because it's +flat damage.

So, a guy with 10 STR is great if you can land a power hit from 2-handed axe, since it's more efficient to multiply high base damage, but what can a 10 INT guy do?
Well, he can invest into Crafting & Alchemy and get both of those very high way quicker than pure combat build and get extra THC, CS, passive chance & 10 dmg poison from there.
And high PER can allow aimed hits whereas STR-guy would rely on fast hits.
And let's not forget weapon passives, like Hammers have.

Then there's CON. I never played a character with CON higher than 6 and I won every fight and killed Agath a few times. Well maybe played one guy, 8 CON, didn't notice that much of a difference.

I think for combat build you want at least 9 DEX, 6+ STR and CON, and 6+ PER is nice. That's not a lot of points.

But it all comes to THC and damage, and hybrid can have THC and damage too. I think I can even bet that a 10 DEX 10 INT character could beat all fights and Agath if played right - and actually would have easier time at some points of the game, where poison+crafting would elevate him above other characters.
Who knows, maybe he'd even end up with a lot more points to play and his combat skills would be higher. An extra combat skill and/or 1-2 synergetic weapon skills would compensate lower stats with higher THC.

By the way, for these reasons and others, I believe that not every newbie would find AoD easier with pure combat build and that's why I said that dumb fighers are not very welcoming for newbies in AoD. Playing dumb fighter means you will have to fight through everything. To do that you need to know the game well. While other characters can fight battles they can win and avoid those that player feels are too hard for him.

tl;dr Combat build would be more effective than hybrid with weapons that rely on raw stats like axes, with others not as much.

Which is why I said the axe is the best weapon for a pure fighter. Reaps the most benefit from that high str.

One thing tho: there is more than enough SP for a pure fighter to max out crafting and alchemy. So these advantages aren't "hybrid only". Bear in mind that IG path has craft training, reinforcing the idea that crafting is the go-to warrior skill after axe and dodge.