Morrowind vs Skyrim objectively

[Crevice tab]

As for Skyrim, the engine is limited in terms of game mechanics. Sure, you can make the game look photo realistic, amazing in all kinds of visuals, but you can't for instance insert Oblivion or Morrowind mechanics into the game. The engine is what it is and it constrains you, so no matter how many mods they make, you will always end up with that basic engine limitation.

Eh... not that limited actually. Sure you can't really bring back attributes (why did you remove the attributes Bethesda? WHY? ) but the scripting capabilities are quite good and the system is just as flexible if not more so than Oblivion's. All games have engine limitations (one reason why I'm quite excited about OpenMW is that it will remove some of Morrowind's limiters) so Skyrim isn't quite that bad in that regard.

Also engine capabilities aren't connected with game quality: just compare Fallout 3 with Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Xenich]

As for Skyrim, the engine is limited in terms of game mechanics. Sure, you can make the game look photo realistic, amazing in all kinds of visuals, but you can't for instance insert Oblivion or Morrowind mechanics into the game. The engine is what it is and it constrains you, so no matter how many mods they make, you will always end up with that basic engine limitation.

Eh... not that limited actually. Sure you can't really bring back attributes (why did you remove the attributes Bethesda? WHY? ) but the scripting capabilities are quite good and the system is just as flexible if not more so than Oblivion's. All games have engine limitations (one reason why I'm quite excited about OpenMW is that it will remove some of Morrowind's limiters) so Skyrim isn't quite that bad in that regard.

Also engine capabilities aren't connected with game quality: just compare Fallout 3 with Fallout: New Vegas.

My point is attributes and other factors related (skills directly affecting success in all aspects). While some don't see that as a big issue, for me... well... it makes Skyrim seem more like an action hack and slash game. Nothing wrong with people who like such, but when I am seeking an open world character development and interaction game, the last thing I want is a weak action based character development system. So, unless they can bring all that back to Skyrim, that games engine isn't all that appealing to me and Oblivion/modded (or Morrowind w/mods) achieve more what I am looking for.

Now if someone could bring Arena mechanics and character development to a Skyrim look and feel, well... I would be like a kid on Christmas morning. That will never happen with the console crowd and that is all they make games for these days.

 

[Crevice tab]

My point is attributes and other factors related (skills directly affecting success in all aspects). While some don't see that as a big issue, for me... well... it makes Skyrim seem more like an action hack and slash game. Nothing wrong with people who like such, but when I am seeking an open world character development and interaction game, the last thing I want is a weak action based character development system. So, unless they can bring all that back to Skyrim, that games engine isn't all that appealing to me and Oblivion/modded (or Morrowind w/mods) achieve more what I am looking for.

Now if someone could bring Arena mechanics and character development to a Skyrim look and feel, well... I would be like a kid on Christmas morning. That will never happen with the console crowd and that is all they make games for these days.

I totally understand where you're coming from.

From my POV a good character development game and interaction game depends just as much on the writing/dialogue/interactions and the world/enemies/leveling as it does on the character development system. A good character development system that makes no difference in how the game reacts to the character is useless- if the game can't understand the difference between a warrior or a mage or between someone with 10 intelligence and someone with 100 intelligence then that game is just as bad if not worse as one with a bad character system. Oblivion fails badly in that regard, MW's skill checks are gone and only popamole and hitting level scaled enemies repeatedly with weightless, anime like swords remains. Skyrim's character development system is weaker but much better used (obviously talking about the vanilla games here).

In any case Morrowind still remains the last game TES that's really worth playing and replaying unmoded or lightly modded, purely for its own sake precisely because of the excellent synergy between the writing, world and character development.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I was betrayed yesterday by the amazing reduction in equipment slots from Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion. So on a quest just now to see if the number of books or their content has diminished as equipment slots have, I found it's the opposite: the number of books has increased. One can see this self-evidently by examining these lists:
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/daggerfall/by-category
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/morrowind/by-category
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/skyrim/by-category

I actually sighed and said to myself "At least they haven't reduced that."

Not everything was reduced. It seems they mostly just cutdown on technical or consuming things. For example, if one strives to enchant all of their equipment in Daggerfall or Morrowind, it's a time consuming process. On the reverse side of this it does allow you to change your appearance moreso, especially in Daggerfall. Still, mods in Oblivion and Skyrim (and Morrowind as well) allow lots of customization which vanilla does not HAVE to provide.

Here's hte list I have compiled so far of things which make Morrowind differnet from later games and some plaeyrs might like:
1. You can levitate/jump very high to skip or creatively travel which tends to make travel more non-linear
2. Conversation is more flexible via keywords and numerous, as most of it's text-based, although a lot of it's generic and repeated from one npc to another - if you use imagination then no npc just says a couple lines of text
3. There're no automatic map markers or compass headings for quests/locations
4. More factions (10 vs 6) and gaining rank is more picky (stat/skill req)
5. A deeper enchantment system (for items) and spellcraft system (nonexistent in skyrim) for spells
6. It's harder early in the game
7. The graphics and creature names are more unique
8. Less and less equipment slots from each game to the next (24+ > 18 (Morrowind) > 9 > 8)

I'm looking to expand this list, but it needs to be factual data, not opinion. If anytihng on this list isn't factual then I want to know so it can be removed. It's only whether a data is preferred by some which is opinion. For example, one could rightly say the name "Morrowind" is data and is preferred by some players. The data would be factual.

I also would like to add a data point for stats/skills, since I know they were reduced in later games. The fact a stat or skill is not included in Skyrim is just that alone. Whether it's preferred by some, again, is just opinion, not fact.

I can easily argue reduction in skills is not loss of depth. For example, if Critical Strike and Slashing and One Handed are all separate skills, yet are combined in a later game as a Slashing Weapons skill, I could easily argue nothing has been lost, since the player can still use 1 handed slashing weapons and get critical hits. I guess the only loss one could allege is that of the player having to choose between Critical Strike and another skill or having to choose between one handed weapons and two handed weapons, but all of that assumes skill points were so scarce a player had to choose. It also assumes the later game doesn't have skill perks or other expressions for these things. It has to be closely examined. Evenso, the argument would likely be weak.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

...........
From my POV a good character development game and interaction game depends just as much on the writing/dialogue/interactions and the world/enemies/leveling as it does on the character development system. A good character development system that makes no difference in how the game reacts to the character is useless- if the game can't understand the difference between a warrior or a mage or between someone with 10 intelligence and someone with 100 intelligence then that game is just as bad if not worse as one with a bad character system. Oblivion fails badly in that regard, MW's skill checks are gone and only popamole and hitting level scaled enemies repeatedly with weightless, anime like swords remains. Skyrim's character development system is weaker but much better used (obviously talking about the vanilla games here).
.........

I think the main reason for cutting back on number of stats/skills was to make character development more accessible. They removed some stuff, but compensated by adding some new combat fluff and also introducing perks. Perks are very simple to understand. It's not always clear that adding some dexterity and intelligence will benefit your tool crafting skill, for example. But a perk which outright says "Boosts your tool crafting skill." is very difficult to not understand the first time. The dilemma, I think, is in naming the perks appropriately and also organizing them in such a way players can understand their aim at a glance.

Speaking of which, since I have no played Oblivion or Skyrim, it's hard for me to comment on it. However, I thought I could maybe elaborate on why some things were removed. Do you agree the system is more accessible and nothing was technically lost since they added new things and added perks? Of course, I'll grant you making absolutely certain nothing was lost is far from a perfect science. I've also read in other forums the engine of Skyrim CANNOT do some things which were in Morrowind.

 

[Tom Selleck]

I was betrayed yesterday by the amazing reduction in equipment slots from Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion. So on a quest just now to see if the number of books or their content has diminished as equipment slots have, I found it's the opposite: the number of books has increased. One can see this self-evidently by examining these lists:
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/daggerfall/by-category
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/morrowind/by-category
http://www.imperial-library.info/books/skyrim/by-category

I actually sighed and said to myself "At least they haven't reduced that."

But isn't this just them including the previous games' books in each sequel? What would be interesting is how many NEW books per game.

 

[Akratus]

Objectively, those nord drunkards can't match Dagoth Ur's jams!



This was back in his mellow period, you see. No wonder he got crazy under that mountain without his stash.

 

[Crevice tab]

I think the main reason for cutting back on number of stats/skills was to make character development more accessible. They removed some stuff, but compensated by adding some new combat fluff and also introducing perks. Perks are very simple to understand. It's not always clear that adding some dexterity and intelligence will benefit your tool crafting skill, for example. But a perk which outright says "Boosts your tool crafting skill." is very difficult to not understand the first time. The dilemma, I think, is in naming the perks appropriately and also organizing them in such a way players can understand their aim at a glance.

Understanding that intelligence and dexterity means better crafting isn't exactly rocket science especially if you present it properly. I think that trying to simplify things to the max just in case you somehow missed a retard who would otherwise play the game makes the experience less enjoyable for the 99% of your players who have a functioning brain. Now perks are a great idea which I would wholeheartedly support if they were properly implemented. Unfortunately in Skyrim many perks do the exact same thing as skills so they're only adding an useless extra layer instead of keeping a nice, tidy and useful character development system.

Speaking of which, since I have no played Oblivion or Skyrim, it's hard for me to comment on it. However, I thought I could maybe elaborate on why some things were removed. Do you agree the system is more accessible and nothing was technically lost since they added new things and added perks? Of course, I'll grant you making absolutely certain nothing was lost is far from a perfect science. I've also read in other forums the engine of Skyrim CANNOT do some things which were in Morrowind.

Only when compared to Oblivion. There are plenty of things that were lost from Morrwind. The great dumbing down was most clearly Oblivion with Skyrim mostly getting rid of parts that only technically existed in Oblivion but were rarely or never actually used by the game or useful to the player. Skyrim's engine cuts some possibilities and adds others- I frankly can't complain too much about the engine. You can simulate most of what was possible in Morrowind through it if you're clever enough and that plus the new functions makes it good enough from my POV.

 

[Xenich]

...........
From my POV a good character development game and interaction game depends just as much on the writing/dialogue/interactions and the world/enemies/leveling as it does on the character development system. A good character development system that makes no difference in how the game reacts to the character is useless- if the game can't understand the difference between a warrior or a mage or between someone with 10 intelligence and someone with 100 intelligence then that game is just as bad if not worse as one with a bad character system. Oblivion fails badly in that regard, MW's skill checks are gone and only popamole and hitting level scaled enemies repeatedly with weightless, anime like swords remains. Skyrim's character development system is weaker but much better used (obviously talking about the vanilla games here).
.........

I think the main reason for cutting back on number of stats/skills was to make character development more accessible. They removed some stuff, but compensated by adding some new combat fluff and also introducing perks. Perks are very simple to understand. It's not always clear that adding some dexterity and intelligence will benefit your tool crafting skill, for example. But a perk which outright says "Boosts your tool crafting skill." is very difficult to not understand the first time. The dilemma, I think, is in naming the perks appropriately and also organizing them in such a way players can understand their aim at a glance.

Speaking of which, since I have no played Oblivion or Skyrim, it's hard for me to comment on it. However, I thought I could maybe elaborate on why some things were removed. Do you agree the system is more accessible and nothing was technically lost since they added new things and added perks? Of course, I'll grant you making absolutely certain nothing was lost is far from a perfect science. I've also read in other forums the engine of Skyrim CANNOT do some things which were in Morrowind.

The thing is, the finding out over time, exploring the games mechanics, etc... is the point of these games. It is honestly the "dumbing down" of the system in order to cater to a market that is less interested in all that "nerdy" stuff and more interested in running around being entertained by a bouncing story ball. I know I sound extremely cynical, but this is honestly the reality of the situation. The early TES games were filled with aspects of play you "had to figure out" as you played. By making things more "accessible", all they did was take an intelligently driven game focus and design and turn it into a Saturday morning cartoon to appeal to the mass market. Accessible in this industry literally means "dumbing down for the masses".

I have no problem with people who like simplified game systems that play more like movie interactions with weak arcade features, there is a time and a place for all types of games, a market for all types of game play, but when they take an existing system that was at complete odds with such a focus and destroy it to facilitate that dumbed down direction? It is a complete travesty. Rather make a new game entirely designed around that game focus, they marketed off the name of a known IP and sold out. They killed their games to the people who made them. When everyone else out there was too busy playing their console games, too disinterested in computer games, it was the core crowd of PC gamers who carried them in the market and Bethesda pissed right in their faces. They are sellouts who make gimmick games to appeal to the intellectually and attentive challenged.

That would be fine though, IF they didn't sell out on so many levels. If they actually continued to make PC games, then modders might be able to repair and adjust the engines to achieve what they left out. Thing is, Bethesda hasn't made a PC game since Morrowind. Every game after that release was entirely designed for console and ported to PC. /sigh

 

[the_shadow]

I know that I'm going to get slammed for this, but I found Skyrim to be a far more enjoyable experience than Morrowind, for the same reason I prefer Baldur's Gate II over the original. You spend way too much time in Morrowind walking about, and walking is *slow*. I know that over time you can cut down on travel time with Mark/Recall, Intervention, silt striders etc, but it's still a huge drag. It's not helped by the fact that finding anything (be it a location, person or item) is difficult. Yes, quest compasses are 'dumbing down' the exploration aspect, but they save a huge amount of frustration when it comes to huge open worlds like Morrowind and Skyrim.

Morrowind, like Baldur's Gate I, isn't very 'encounter dense'. Between two points of interest, there is a whole shitload of encounter-empty scenery you have to traverse. Combat is also *awful* in Morrowind, and it's not helped by pain in the ass enemies like cliffracers.

My other main gripe about Morrowind is its leveling system. The way primary stats are increased on level ups is a huge pain in the ass, because you have to micromanage which major/minor skills you choose to train.

Skyrim is far more 'encounter dense'. There are a shitload of ruins to explore, tens (if not hundreds) of quests, and you don't move like a slug. The combat is also greatly improved. It's not the best I've ever seen, but it's above average for a first person RPG. The perk system is also a pretty decent way of specialising your character.

I do miss some stuff from Morrowind, though. Spellmaking was awesome (and well balanced by the prohibited monetary cost), and the utility spells gave the game a sandbox feel.

 

[DalekFlay]

The thing is, the finding out over time, exploring the games mechanics, etc... is the point of these games. It is honestly the "dumbing down" of the system in order to cater to a market that is less interested in all that "nerdy" stuff and more interested in running around being entertained by a bouncing story ball. I know I sound extremely cynical, but this is honestly the reality of the situation. The early TES games were filled with aspects of play you "had to figure out" as you played. By making things more "accessible", all they did was take an intelligently driven game focus and design and turn it into a Saturday morning cartoon to appeal to the mass market. Accessible in this industry literally means "dumbing down for the masses".

I have no problem with people who like simplified game systems that play more like movie interactions with weak arcade features, there is a time and a place for all types of games, a market for all types of game play, but when they take an existing system that was at complete odds with such a focus and destroy it to facilitate that dumbed down direction? It is a complete travesty. Rather make a new game entirely designed around that game focus, they marketed off the name of a known IP and sold out. They killed their games to the people who made them. When everyone else out there was too busy playing their console games, too disinterested in computer games, it was the core crowd of PC gamers who carried them in the market and Bethesda pissed right in their faces. They are sellouts who make gimmick games to appeal to the intellectually and attentive challenged.

That would be fine though, IF they didn't sell out on so many levels. If they actually continued to make PC games, then modders might be able to repair and adjust the engines to achieve what they left out. Thing is, Bethesda hasn't made a PC game since Morrowind. Every game after that release was entirely designed for console and ported to PC. /sigh

You're not wrong, but at the end of the day it's a capitalist system. They sold 20-mother-fucking-copies of Skyrim and they aren't going back to Morrowind mechanics anytime soon. They have been rewarded ten times over for their decisions. They made, objectively and factually, the best choices for their business. We can't say otherwise. What we CAN say is that smaller developer teams can make a good living catering to niche audiences, and teams like inXile seem happy to do so. As long as big dumb fun RPGs like Skyrim can coexist with niche shit like Wasteland 2, I think we can find a happy balance. That's my glass-half-full attitude on the subject.

Eventually, when tech becomes cheaper and easier, someone is going to make an indie Morrowind.

 

[naossano]

The problem is that they often have to change engine to cater whoever interested in that, which lead to stagnation.
If you keep the same engine, you just have to add new plots and new mechanics. When you change engine, you spend an awfull amount of time, just to be able to do the same things you were used to do. In the end, you might not have all the previous mechanics and you don't add much of them. Of course, it doesn't happen all the time, but too often.

Take Jagged Alliance: Flashback. Instead of using Jagged Alliance 2 engine, they had to start over on a new engine. They spent entire months re-doing things that were already done in the previous games. They didn't put all the previous mechanics. They didn't add much new mechanics. They ended up making an unfinished product.

About WL2, they might not have the right to use Fallout 1-2 engine, but if they used an engine they were used too, many games mechanics would already have been made, and they would just have to improve it, creates new plots, assets, and game mechanics. If they keep the WL2 engine (which i don't like, by the way) for Torment, they might not improve everything, but they won't have to spend any second on implementing the mechanics that already exist in WL2, and could focus on new things.

The need of constant change of engine is governed by the need to remain in competitions with more shallow titles that keep changing tech in every games, so their polygons remain the most shiny on the market.

It is not needed by the players of that niche and is detrimental to the quality of the product as they spend huge amount of time in making things that already existed before, and have much less time for doing other stuff.

It is IMO, an important cause of stagnation, even for develloppers that would be interested in adding new game mechanics. (I don't think it is the case with TES, as they always keep the same engine. Their problems are elsewhere)

 

[Xenich]

You're not wrong, but at the end of the day it's a capitalist system. They sold 20-mother-fucking-copies of Skyrim and they aren't going back to Morrowind mechanics anytime soon. They have been rewarded ten times over for their decisions. They made, objectively and factually, the best choices for their business. We can't say otherwise. What we CAN say is that smaller developer teams can make a good living catering to niche audiences, and teams like inXile seem happy to do so. As long as big dumb fun RPGs like Skyrim can coexist with niche shit like Wasteland 2, I think we can find a happy balance. That's my glass-half-full attitude on the subject.

Eventually, when tech becomes cheaper and easier, someone is going to make an indie Morrowind.

I wouldn't have it any other way. It is that same system that produced Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind in the first place. Like I said, I don't mind the idiot movie simulator games, but I was rather pissed when they took existing IPs and destroyed them. The Skyrim/Oblivion crowd could give two fucks about TES. You could have provided them with any pretty exploration simulator and they would have been happy. It was just disappointing to see them destroy what they had created over the years. As someone else mentioned, they are having to start from scratch again and that takes time. The real test will be how many of them sell out along the way.

 

[DalekFlay]

I wouldn't have it any other way. It is that same system that produced Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind in the first place. Like I said, I don't mind the idiot movie simulator games, but I was rather pissed when they took existing IPs and destroyed them. The Skyrim/Oblivion crowd could give two fucks about TES. You could have provided them with any pretty exploration simulator and they would have been happy. It was just disappointing to see them destroy what they had created over the years. As someone else mentioned, they are having to start from scratch again and that takes time. The real test will be how many of them sell out along the way.

I mean, I get what you're saying, and using existing IPs for marketing reasons is fucking annoying when the games don't match up. However I think I speak for most Morrowind fans when I say I would have bought Oblivion either way. If it were some new fantasy IP from Bethesda I would have been eager to play it too, and I would have been just as disappointed it sucked because I expected better from Bethesda at the time.

 

[Xenich]

I mean, I get what you're saying, and using existing IPs for marketing reasons is fucking annoying when the games don't match up. However I think I speak for most Morrowind fans when I say I would have bought Oblivion either way. If it were some new fantasy IP from Bethesda I would have been eager to play it too, and I would have been just as disappointed it sucked because I expected better from Bethesda at the time.

Here is the thing. If it would have been a new title in a line of a new focus, there may have been a chance for them to make another TES in the line of the previous focuses. Since they used the existing IP, the previous focus is just a fond memory for some and there will not be another TES under its old style. The series is ruined, TES is dead.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

You know what I really hated in Morrowind? Forced inclusiveness. You can be a Khajit who are considered the second class citizens and still become the head of the most xenophobic house and the fantasy pope. And all of that without even convincing all these retards that you are their Jesus. What's worse is that you can be a member and leader of supposedly competing factions at the same time and nobody will ever be cross with you because of that. When I finished the game I was the highest ranked member of the Imperial Legion, leader of the mages' guild, leader of the house Telvani, leader of the local church and a high-ranking member of the imperial church at the same time. Imagine a single guy being the grand Wizard of the KKK, the Pope, a rabbi and also a policeman. All of that while being a black guy in the the 1920's. Was Josh Sawyer helping design this shit?

 

[Crevice tab]

Here is the thing. If it would have been a new title in a line of a new focus, there may have been a chance for them to make another TES in the line of the previous focuses. Since they used the existing IP, the previous focus is just a fond memory for some and there will not be another TES under its old style. The series is ruined, TES is dead.

Well we can still hope.

Skyrim has in some aspects tried to add a bit more Morrowind/Daggerfall into it's mix. Not too much but after the bland, insipid Oblivion and utterly retarded Fallout 3 I found myself pleasantly surprised to learn that Bethesda can still create coherent, halfway mature storylines and reasonably fleshed out game worlds. I'm hesitant to wholeheartedly applaud their approach but after so many AAA+ series becoming more and more retarded even the least glimmer of is welcome.

You know what I really hated in Morrowind? Forced inclusiveness. You can be a Khajit who are considered the second class citizens and still become the head of the most xenophobic house and the fantasy pope. And all of that without even convincing all these retards that you are their Jesus. What's worse is that you can be a member and leader of supposedly competing factions at the same time and nobody will ever be cross with you because of that. When I finished the game I was the highest ranked member of the Imperial Legion, leader of the mages' guild, leader of the house Telvani, leader of the local church and a high-ranking member of the imperial church at the same time. Imagine a single guy being the grand Wizard of the KKK, the Pope, a rabbi and also a policeman. All of that while being a black guy in the the 1920's. Was Josh Sawyer helping design this shit?

The Telavanni aren't really that racist- they care about power first and foremost. The most racist/xenophobic houses going by lore and MK are Indoril and Dres (which is probably why they were the ones cut from the game).

 

[Xenich]

Here is the thing. If it would have been a new title in a line of a new focus, there may have been a chance for them to make another TES in the line of the previous focuses. Since they used the existing IP, the previous focus is just a fond memory for some and there will not be another TES under its old style. The series is ruined, TES is dead.

Well we can still hope.

Skyrim has in some aspects tried to add a bit more Morrowind/Daggerfall into it's mix. Not too much but after the bland, insipid Oblivion and utterly retarded Fallout 3 I found myself pleasantly surprised to learn that Bethesda can still create coherent, halfway mature storylines and reasonably fleshed out game worlds. I'm hesitant to wholeheartedly applaud their approach but after so many AAA+ series becoming more and more retarded even the least glimmer of is welcome.

Story in the greater scheme of things (ie what is wrong with the series) isn't important (I will explain in a moment why). The biggest thing wrong with the series is the mechanics. They have severely streamlined them to the point where they are meaningless. Some like this, after all, their goal is a story and immersion within it. Now, if they want to repair that, if they want to "get back to their roots" so to speak, it will be a MASSIVE undertaking. We are talking about extreme planning, development and balancing to achieve something that was already there in previous titles. If hey had been continuing along with that focus, the releases would have fleshed out more and more as they became accustomed to implementing and balancing the mechanics.

Story on the other hand is... well... it is a singular focus. You can write a terrible story line in one release, and then a masterpiece in another and the "effort" is the same between them (within reason). That is, a story is a story, all they have to do is write it and flesh it out. Mechanics on the other hand are not so easy to continue with if you have to start over and make no mistake, they will have to start over with their current engine because the engine itself is limited at its very core design. It is like they would have to develop a new game in many ways.

So... My point is that I doubt you will ever see them go back to this style. They may "attempt" to, but Bethesda as you knew them in the far past no longer exists. They are entirely a corporate machine, no different than EA or Origin. So, money won't be wasted catering to a niche crowd who wants substance in their game play. All you will get with Bethesda games from now on is movie like, uncomplicated story interaction and focus all wrapped up in the latest action combat system.

Don't waste your time "hoping", hope is dead, TES is dead, Bethesda is dead. Put your hopes to that of independent and other upstarts who "at least" are attempting to fight against the machine.

 

[Crevice tab]

Story in the greater scheme of things (ie what is wrong with the series) isn't important (I will explain in a moment why). The biggest thing wrong with the series is the mechanics. They have severely streamlined them to the point where they are meaningless. Some like this, after all, their goal is a story and immersion within it. Now, if they want to repair that, if they want to "get back to their roots" so to speak, it will be a MASSIVE undertaking. We are talking about extreme planning, development and balancing to achieve something that was already there in previous titles. If hey had been continuing along with that focus, the releases would have fleshed out more and more as they became accustomed to implementing and balancing the mechanics.

Paradoxically the mechanics change is one of the things that gives me hope. I've criticized the perks system numerous times both on these forums and elsewhere but the fact remains that it is an attempt at improving game mechanics. Not a successful attempt but compared to the Oblivionic approach of cutting stuff without putting anything in its place this is something to consider. Yes Skyrim has cut some things but it also attempted to replace them with other features and had a far saner approach to criticism than Oblivion. To put it plainly Beth seems to be learning a few lessons.

Story on the other hand is... well... it is a singular focus. You can write a terrible story line in one release, and then a masterpiece in another and the "effort" is the same between them (within reason). That is, a story is a story, all they have to do is write it and flesh it out. Mechanics on the other hand are not so easy to continue with if you have to start over and make no mistake, they will have to start over with their current engine because the engine itself is limited at its very core design. It is like they would have to develop a new game in many ways.

So... My point is that I doubt you will ever see them go back to this style. They may "attempt" to, but Bethesda as you knew them in the far past no longer exists. They are entirely a corporate machine, no different than EA or Origin. So, money won't be wasted catering to a niche crowd who wants substance in their game play. All you will get with Bethesda games from now on is movie like, uncomplicated story interaction and focus all wrapped up in the latest action combat system.

Don't waste your time "hoping", hope is dead, TES is dead, Bethesda is dead. Put your hopes to that of independent and other upstarts who "at least" are attempting to fight against the machine.

Coherent, decent stories don't seem to be that easy to write- there's so much crap that seems to have been written by preschoolers in games nowadays but I get your point.

Sadly Beth is a money making machine but there may be some hope for it still. Money machine type enterprises have occasionally produced good movies, literature, theatre etc. so why shouldn't the gaming industry be able to mature and start producing tasteful pieces?

The alternative is waiting for independents who will be drawn into the corporate machine as soon as they make their name and their games become profitable which leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Money machine type enterprises have occasionally produced good movies, literature, theatre etc. so why shouldn't the gaming industry be able to mature and start producing tasteful pieces?

You may not realize it but your question was rhetorical. (Or maybe you already knew that)

The gaming industry WILL mature and will produce more tasteful pieces. The media isn't going to die out since people aren't going to stop buying video games: there's room only for growth. Companies that fail to grow will simply die out, being easily replaced by others. It's only a matter of time.

 

[DalekFlay]

Story in the greater scheme of things (ie what is wrong with the series) isn't important (I will explain in a moment why). The biggest thing wrong with the series is the mechanics. They have severely streamlined them to the point where they are meaningless. Some like this, after all, their goal is a story and immersion within it. Now, if they want to repair that, if they want to "get back to their roots" so to speak, it will be a MASSIVE undertaking. We are talking about extreme planning, development and balancing to achieve something that was already there in previous titles. If hey had been continuing along with that focus, the releases would have fleshed out more and more as they became accustomed to implementing and balancing the mechanics.

Story on the other hand is... well... it is a singular focus. You can write a terrible story line in one release, and then a masterpiece in another and the "effort" is the same between them (within reason). That is, a story is a story, all they have to do is write it and flesh it out. Mechanics on the other hand are not so easy to continue with if you have to start over and make no mistake, they will have to start over with their current engine because the engine itself is limited at its very core design. It is like they would have to develop a new game in many ways.

So... My point is that I doubt you will ever see them go back to this style. They may "attempt" to, but Bethesda as you knew them in the far past no longer exists. They are entirely a corporate machine, no different than EA or Origin. So, money won't be wasted catering to a niche crowd who wants substance in their game play. All you will get with Bethesda games from now on is movie like, uncomplicated story interaction and focus all wrapped up in the latest action combat system.

Don't waste your time "hoping", hope is dead, TES is dead, Bethesda is dead. Put your hopes to that of independent and other upstarts who "at least" are attempting to fight against the machine.

They're never going to make Morrowind again, certainly. However I think his point was that Skyrim is improved enough over Oblivion in certain areas that the game itself is relatively enjoyable for many of us. It's not some deep RPG and it's not Morrowind levels of depth and detail, but it's at least not terrible and enjoyable as an open world action game with RPG elements. Oblivion wasn't even that.

And Obsidian has shown you can make a real RPG in that style with New Vegas, so there's always hope.

 

[DragoFireheart]

And Obsidian has shown you can make a real RPG in that style with New Vegas, so there's always hope.

Exactly. If Bethesda won't cater to a niche, someone else will.

 

[Xenich]

They're never going to make Morrowind again, certainly. However I think his point was that Skyrim is improved enough over Oblivion in certain areas that the game itself is relatively enjoyable for many of us. It's not some deep RPG and it's not Morrowind levels of depth and detail, but it's at least not terrible and enjoyable as an open world action game with RPG elements. Oblivion wasn't even that.

And Obsidian has shown you can make a real RPG in that style with New Vegas, so there's always hope.

Skyrim continued the streamlining of skills, abilities, and focuses. I don't see how in terms of character development it improved over anything. Honestly, Skyrim is worse in every way concerning core RPG aspects. Oblivion, at least with heavy modding could be turned into a Morrowind within in reason. Skyrim is an entertainment simulator, neat graphics and the like but the fact is, its character development is completely disconnected from what we would call a "game". It is is just there to give you something to do while you run around and look at things.

If you think Skyrim was an improvement outside of graphics and "immersion" systems, then you are missing the point of why TES is in decline. The entire point of TES was its character development, its interaction and focus as it concerned those mechanics. Hell, Myst was an open world, so that isn't the key to the TES series.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You know what I really hated in Morrowind? Forced inclusiveness.

Anyone who has trouble with the reincarnated hero not looking exactly like he did in his former life is too stupid to be worth convincing

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

You know what I really hated in Morrowind? Forced inclusiveness.

Anyone who has trouble with the reincarnated hero not looking exactly like he did in his former life is too stupid to be worth convincing

You can do all this shit before you convince everyone that you are their hero.