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Mage duels without hard counters

Infinitron

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So, with talk of a possible Pillars of Eternity 2 in the future, let's discuss the possibilities of supporting high level mage duel-type combat without violating the tenets of Sawyerist anti-hard counterism.

What sort of non-hard counter spells and abilities would you give the different classes that would still be able to convey "mage duel-ish" ~feels~?

Roguey tuluse etc

My first thought is to have mage defense spells that focus on area denial rather than personal defense. Like some kind of half-circle force field projected at a distance from the mage, that can be physically bypassed by a clever opponent.
 

Athelas

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Keep the hard counters intact, but give the characters/classes who can't use magic the gift of anti-magic.
 

Infinitron

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What might be interesting is to make protective spells that need to be "charged up" somehow, and then slowly lose their power. Similarly, opponents might need to "charge up" their attacks to demolish those protections. That kind of "tug-of-war" feel is central to the mage duel experience, I think.

lo-pan-versus-egg-shen-o.gif
 
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Roguey

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I believe Josh would want to include PoE-equivalents of Seven Eyes, Aegis, and Executioner's Eyes.

From BG2 they might would like to include mantles that increase DR against weapons below superb (rather than outright immunity), simulacrum, spell sequencer/trigger/chain contingency, a temporary-as-opposed-to-permanent energy drain, and spell trap.
 

tuluse

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This suggests a battle against a single enemy spellcaster instead of a large group of 'em.
Basically this.

You have like 5 mages each specializing in a type of magic. One is throwing damage attacks, one is debuffing your party, one is buffing the 10 minions in the area, etc. Prioritizing which mage(s) to go after would provide the challenge and fun. Maybe trying to lock a few of them down in melee to disrupt them, etc, etc.

They could also do things with level design. Crystals in an area that are boosting a mage's power and need to be destroyed first (Blackguards did this a lot, but kind of banally).
 

Sensuki

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Or, you could just have one wizard cast a debuff/disables and four mages throwing AoE damage spells.

That's basically all they do in Pillars of Eternity.
 

tuluse

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Or, you could just have one wizard cast a debuff/disables and four mages throwing AoE damage spells.

That's basically all they do in Pillars of Eternity.
Well that sounds more boring that what I briefly outlined :)
 

Sensuki

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Yes, but I am being practical. That is quite literally how Wizards play in this game. Wizards also can't buff allies. It's part of the design of the game to limit buffing type stuff to Priests, Chanters and Paladins.

I don't know whether Josh would be willing to broaden the scope of spells that the Wizard has access to.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Yes, but I am being practical. That is quite literally how Wizards play in this game. Wizards also can't buff allies. It's part of the design of the game to limit buffing type stuff to Priests, Chanters and Paladins.

I don't know whether Josh would be willing to broaden the scope of spells that the Wizard has access to.
Well in the context of "wizard duels" I think some priests acting as "wizards" is fine.

We're also thinking about PoE2 and expansion and so forth when higher ability levels are unlocked.
 
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Volrath

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Mage duels without hard counters is like trying to have sex with a limp dick. It.just.doesn't.work.
 

Ellef

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I just cannot think of high level duels of any kind without counterspelling. When I think of high powered mages from any media, they have some bullshit defences to make up for the fact that they're made of paper. I imagine they will always remain the same in POE, as just more colourful aoe dps and debuffs found on any of the other classes.
 

Johannes

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There absolutely has to be a way to put up defenses that are truly effective. Otherwise you use the same attacks against mages as with any opponent (be those attacks debuffs, direct damage, aoe, whatever). That the wizard is protected by different means than a warrior. And that you can be protected against all types of damage at a time, so that any mage isn't easily gibbed by just picking the right weapon to suit the situation (which would often be be an example of, wait for it, boring hard counters).

They don't have to be as hard defenses as D&D-style Protection from X-spells and such. Stoneskin for example is a spell that you can just brute force your way through, Spell Deflection / Turning can be as well. Is Sawyer totally opposed to the buffs granting immunity that last only 4 rounds in IE?

It's also a matter of how casting times and interrupts work. Big reason why mages needed their protections in IE/D&D is not just because they were prone to die, but even small amounts of damage could render their more powerful spells unusable.


I just doubt they even want to go that way, where powerful wizards can operate by themselves against full parties (unless they come in physically powerful form anyway). It's not necessarily required either, as long as the wizard spells are interesting enough and most importantly interact with the enemy spellcasters. Mages protected by warriors can work as well as mages protected by spells. As long as their spell repertoire isn't always the same AoE damage/debuff shit. But having truly gamechanging single buffs for the whole party, summoning various truly diverse summons (in BG2 we had Skeleton Warriors, Mordenkainen Swords, Elementals, Nishruu, Demons!, etc.), and really, some need to respond to the spells the enemy casters cast is the main point.

But I'm afraid it won't turn out that way since they likely want you to be able to play without a caster without difficulty. If wizards are meant to be near-purely casters of AoE spells (cringe-inducingly lame), there's just no way to make that interactive in a satisfying way. You'll have to diversify them in order for talk of interesting wizard duels to make any more sense than barbarian duels or whatever.

In IE you had 3 spellbooks (Mage, Cleric, Druid) all including a wide variety of spells, on a wide variety of chassises - counting multi- and dual classes (not to mention enemies who were spellcasting liches, dragons, demons...). Here spell types are compartmentalised by type, is that also true for enemies - are there enemies that can cast spells/abilities from more than one class, be they monsters or human?
 

Lord Andre

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Mages will stand on one foot as free-action and touch their nose. Whoever loses balance first will be hit by Sawyer Backlash and receive 10 grazes and 3 Rogueys worth of damage. If a mage has accumulated 10 Rogueys in a single battle he will turn into an enraged fun-hating zombie that mutters "All games get it wrong" before exploding in an AOE that deals 50%Str worth of LGBT damage. The zombie can only be restored by staking it with a Grognard's Spike and splashing Avellone Tears on it's face.
 

sser

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3AM musings.

Making 'duels' happen in a system that frequently has both guys casting spells at the same time makes things difficult, IMO. A duel tends to imply that there is action and reaction, whereas both actions applying simultaneously tends to bank on a literal rock-paper-scissors guessing game.

If I were to design a mage duel around a RTwP functionality, I'd give mages a 'charge' meter that increases/decreases based on spell usage. You would then have to give the mages a very diverse spellbook that is centered around elements of offense, defense, neutrality, and other things, with every spell either increasing or decreasing the bar. But most importantly, spells would have varied casting times as well as varied delivery times (time to get land on the enemy, for example). The overarching goal would be to implement strong resource management while trying to find an advantage over the opponent. I'd also slow down the speed at which spells become effective. The closer you get to (you go, I go, particularly) turn-based mechanics, the better. Magic bolts? Cheap, instant damage, but non-threatening. A giant fireball would give much more of a warning. You could technically cast a life-threatening spell early on, but without other things harrying your opponent, they could then just counter it with a defensive spell. The objective would be to 'punch your way in' through a mage's defenses, while making sure not to weaken yourself. Mage duels would end with spectacular combos that stretched their defense too thin instead of one-shot kills.

But again, it would be difficult to overcome the RTwP aspect, and it would also be difficult to implement in the context of a party-based game. Furthermore, the primary issue with 'mage duels' in games like these is that you essentially have all your spells from the getgo. To really add balance and for the sake of interesting gameplay, I wouldn't mind magecraft that had players 'graduating' their way through their spellbook instead of having it all available to them from the start like some kind of cheat sheet. For example, the charge bar. Every time it reaches its top, it resets, but spells cost a little bit cheaper to cast. So you could cast a giant fireball right off the bat, but it'll drain you - maybe a malus that leaves you in a state of slow spellcasting, for example. But if you cast it later in the fight, when you've topped the 'bar' a few times, it would be an easy, safe casting that had no effect on your ability to keep fighting. I'd like to see mages that reflected the combat sports - 'fast starters' are very threatening for a minute or two, but if you can survive the assault they always end up gassed and essentially slowed for the rest of the fight. There are other ways to influence spell usage, too, like casting the same spell repeatedly would earn you a malus, or perhaps available spells are somewhat randomized and 'reset' after each charge. Stuff to keep you on your toes...
 

Roguey

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As I've mentioned before, it's keen how Knights of the Chalice managed to be one of the best D&D computer games despite (or in my view, partially because of) the absence of this BG2-specific spell-fuckery. All this tunnel vision.
 

Sensuki

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Knights of the Chalice is a turn-based game, and third edition and Wizards have all sorts of cool spells in it. Knights of the Chalice also has hard counters and metamagic feats. It also features D&D emergent gameplay that no other D&D game managed to achieve - such as fire destroying webs.

Knights of the Chalice does not include Pillars of Eternity Wizards that basically only have damage, CC and self-buff spells.
 

Roguey

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Knights of the Chalice is a turn-based game, and third edition and Wizards have all sorts of cool spells in it.

Clerics don't. :M

Their spell list after 5th-level becomes hilarious.

Knights of the Chalice does not include Pillars of Eternity Wizards that basically only have damage, CC and self-buff spells.

You said yourself, all those other spells were moved to other classes (other classes KotC doesn't have because it only has three). Incidentally, I used damage and crowd control the most when playing KotC. :M
 

Sensuki

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There are many reasons why KoTC is fun. Turn-based is less muddy than RtwP (I like both game types) which works best for D&D games. The game has hard counters, counter spelling, dispelling - and also the stuff like fire destroying webs and all that jazz.

None of that shit will likely exist in Pillars of Eternity, so the spell casting will likely remain very bland and "tactical for simpletons".
 

Roguey

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The game has hard counters, counter spelling, dispelling - and also the stuff like fire destroying webs and all that jazz.

I could safely ignore these things the majority of the time.

None of that shit will likely exist in Pillars of Eternity, so the spell casting will likely remain very bland and "tactical for simpletons".

KotC's big problem is that its quadratic god-king crafting wizards wreck the balance, potentially making it a trivial slog after the early-game. Measures that eliminate this from ever happening are good.

Incidentally tactical for simpletons is X COUNTERS Y NO MATTER WHAT
 

Sensuki

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I could safely ignore these things the majority of the time.

Although I've never seen you play anything (and you'll probably keep it that way), from what I gather your playstyle is fairly lazy, and you also don't play multiplayer. I think playing multiplayer has increased my enjoyment of stuff like counterspelling because when you play against other people, you have to try to counter what they're doing/their strategy (in any game) to win, so that puts me in the mindset to counter enemy AI in games. I don't think "the AI can't think therefore countering shouldn't matter" is a valid rebuttal either (not saying you would use that, but some people do).
 

ushas

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Ciphers have a talent something like Backslash, when somebody targets their will defence he will be stunned, or so. Perhaps the game will utilize countering as specialization by talents...

In case of wizards, we don't know yet what special spells we are going to find, or do we? They can still become a jack of all spells.
 

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