Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[Rake]

Best game designer on the planet. Iä Josh Sawyer, baby goat with a thousand won.

You wish.

 

[Zeriel]

On topic:
After playing the PoE beta, I'm dropping all precedents regarding Sawyer and game design. PoE is less fun in favor of design ideas that "work better in theory" but are in reality not that fun.
Sawyer is a good designer, but he fails at creating a spiritual successor to infinity engine games. Maybe he is best confined to existing frameworks in order to maintain... well, fun. The fun-factor.
I am hoping subsequent Eternity games leave room for overhauling game systems, and that Sawyer is not put in charge. Nor Tim Cain, because his ideas are a better fit for MMORPGs.

Oh look, it's like what I've been saying all along. Anyone who wants to "fix" the classics whose resume includes nothing very impressive should have never been a friend of the Codex, let alone an idol. The moment someone says "Hey, remember those games you loved? They weren't fun, LOL!" you should put them on your metaphorical shit list.

 

[CyberP]

My POV is balance is very important when designing RPG systems, weaponry etc. However, there should still be occasional trash options when conversing with characters or navigating level design, as long as said options can be avoided with the correct build, player intelligence and/or skill. Sometimes, if you want your game to be simulated/realistic, the very rare trash options that are not conveyed to the player beforehand can be good for variety and realism because if everything is designed to revolve around and be of worth to the player than it's obvious your game is designed to do just that. These trash options should generally be few and far between though.
If you apply this obsessive level of balance to every aspect of your game the experience can end up feeling very generic and designed, rather than unique and organic. But it should be applied to core RPG systems, most certainly.
Another thing: trash options are far more desirable than over-empowering options that take the challenge and strategy out of the game.

Those making snarky analogies are way off the mark, Sawyer is a good designer all in all. Conversely Roguey over measures the size of his dick that he likes to ride on the regular.
You can get on mine temporarily if you'd like, Roguey. I've took Deus Ex to the next level and perfected it's systems. You'd make a good marketing pawn, even if you are considered a troll by some. Of all the designers in the industry today that you could worship I'm glad it's Sawyer. Definitely respectable enough. However, you shouldn't act like all other RPGs that are not designed by him are trash, that's felonious and just dense.

 

[sser]

Eh, I see what Sawyer is driving at but I'm afraid he's getting a little bit too close to "everybody gets a trophy" territory.

I don't mind there being trash choices or characters that aren't always The Bomb for every situation.

Also, the word "fun" was only used once in the article and I think that's somewhat reflective that Sawyer might be missing the forest for the trees a little bit.



And...

Spoiler

Two of the best RPG systems I've seen are Skyrim and Diablo III.

 

[Roguey]

When someone says "Remember those games you didn't like? They weren't fun" I nod my head respectfully like nodding man. Feels good to be the target market of a game with role playing for once.

By the way

Once a game has gone out into the world, however, players become invested in the way things are and a subset of them can respond with extreme negativity to anything coming down in power. So if we recognize something is too powerful in testing, we're more eager to cut it down before launch than we are to power up something that feels a little weak.

Larian is learning this lesson the hard way at the moment. I figured this out myself a long time ago when I tried to reverse engineer Bioware's intent when they left some of the most egregious problems in Dragon Age: Origins after a couple of balance patches, but corrected them to some extent in the sequel.

Additionally I'm getting the impression that some people itt and probably in the beta thread I'm not reading are judging his balancing prowess based on the current beta build which is hilarious considering he outlined the process right there in the article. Hell even inXile grog jokester Brother None says complete balance passes should come dead-last and they're even doing one after their gold master.

 

[Menckenstein]

Josh Sawyer Explains Things He's Really Not Good At.

 

[Dangersaurus]

What alt does Sawyer post to grognards.txt with?

 

[Alex]

"Paraplegic explains how to win marathon."

I think that is being a bit too mean.


...


Though I am not sure to whom...

But to be fair, he did a good job in Fallout: New Vegas. He had a very different approach than that from the original Fallout. One, I think, that was actually worse. But in that he did a pretty good job given those limitations (and the ones from reusing a game from Bethesda).

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Additionally I'm getting the impression that some people itt and probably in the beta thread I'm not reading are judging his balancing prowess based on the current beta build which is hilarious considering he outlined the process right there in the article.

Actually balance is some way down the list, most people realise that will keep changing. Most of the discussion is about the combat system, attributes, chargen, magic items, etc.

But you know this as there's no way you're not reading the PoE beta thread.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

I never bothered to learn that DT system in New Vegas.

Is Sawyer mad that people like me don't appreciate the work he puts into games?

 

[ikarinokami]

as long as he has nothing to do with the pathfinder RPG, he can say and do what he wants.

 

[CyberP]

Eh, the DT system was very basic IIRC. It was just: If not passing the DT threshold check, damage dealt is significantly reduced, else damage is calculated as normal. It's not a new concept and has been features in many RPGs before.
It wasn't just DT that makes NV's systems noteworthy though, Sawyer & Co. implemented a lot of nice little touches to NV. My main issues I have with the systems in that game is: VATS. Ridiculously OP, needed nerfing in hardcore mode at least. Turbo shouldn't have existed. Psycho/Med-x/slasher combo should result in serious stat penalties, or the player should have a chance to fucking OD on all drugs if taking more than, say, five at once. Lastly, stealth boy. Directly conflicts with the worth of the stealth skill and related perks (+100 sneak AND cloaking field?) and also if combined with silenced weaponry even Dead Wind Cave is not an issue, you can wipe the place clean without a scratch. There's more, but all in all a fine job. I appreciate the work put in on this one.

 

[imweasel]

Josh Sawyer Explains Things He's Really Not Good At.

 

[Roguey]

Actually balance is some way down the list, most people realise that will keep changing. Most of the discussion is about the combat system, attributes, chargen, magic items, etc.

But you know this as there's no way you're not reading the PoE beta thread.

Sounds like tuning/balance issues to me.

Alternately "I don't like the game he's making" which has nothing to do with balance.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Eh, the DT system was very basic IIRC. It was just: If not passing the DT threshold check, damage dealt is significantly reduced, else damage is calculated as normal. It's not a new concept and has been features in many RPGs before.
It wasn't just DT that makes NV's systems noteworthy though, Sawyer & Co. implemented a lot of nice little touches to NV. My main issues I have with the systems in that game is: VATS. Ridiculously OP, needed nerfing in hardcore mode at least. Turbo shouldn't have existed. Psycho/Med-x/slasher combo should result in serious stat penalties, or the player should have a chance to fucking OD on all drugs if taking more than, say, five at once. Lastly, stealth boy. Directly conflicts with the worth of the stealth skill and related perks (+100 sneak AND cloaking field?) and also if combined with silenced weaponry even Dead Wind Cave is not an issue, you can wipe the place clean without a scratch. There's more, but all in all a fine job. I appreciate the work put in on this one.

Yeah, but DT was Sawyer's contribution to Fallout. The rest are the works of others.

It's just that he mentioned early in development that most people don't know how to play games properly. I thought he had people like me in mind.

 

[imweasel]

Your god has failed miserably, Roguey.

Just so you know.

 

[CyberP]

Yeah, but DT was Sawyer's contribution to Fallout. The rest are the works of others.

That's a very shallow assessment of the contributions of a guy that was lead designer of a fairly complex game.

It's just that he mentioned early in development that most people don't know how to play games properly.

Source?

 

[Zeriel]

Your god has failed miserably, Roguey.

Just so you know.

What a shocker.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Josh Sawyer is awesome, you edgy heathens. I have seen the man's ideas and work in Van Buren and the ideas are quite good. He's probrably the best game designer working on RPGs atm.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Source?

Crooked Bee Infinitron

I think the quote was in one of your copy pastes. Does it ring a bell with either of you?

 

[imweasel]

Josh Sawyer is awesome, you edgy heathens. I have seen the man's ideas and work in Van Buren and the ideas are quite good. He's probrably the best game designer working on RPGs atm.

I don't doubt that Sawyer is good at creative design. Where he absolutely and miserably fails though is in systems design.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Josh Sawyer is awesome, you edgy heathens. I have seen the man's ideas and work in Van Buren and the ideas are quite good. He's probrably the best game designer working on RPGs atm.

I don't doubt that Sawyer is good at creative design. Where he absolutely and miserably fails though is in systems design.

I say its all about the mechanics. Tim Cain got that, even if he could't put into practice.

 

[mindx2]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Sawyer say something like people don't even know what they want when it comes to enjoying games (or something along those lines)?

 

[imweasel]

^

Sawyer has said a lot of stuff. We are not rational, we like degenerate gaming, gamers have no idea what they want, etc.

He sure proved us wrong, didn't he?

 

[Rake]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Sawyer say something like people don't even know what they want when it comes to enjoying games (or something along those lines)?

That would be a valid defence if people didn't played the game and still found the design bad. At that point the only thing he can say is "you are no part of the target audience"