Jedi Outcast is a truly great game - Source Code Released

[A user named cat]

This is the only game I still play online. There aren't a ton of us left but this game will never fully die. I've been playing this shit off and on for nearly a decade, crazy. I do miss it being more active though, especially when we had CTF clan tournaments and such. Now it's just saber only FFA servers.

 

[commie]

I loved going in and force pulling the weapons out of the hands of all the Imperials(JO) I could and seeing them running around like little girls. I also used the stun prod thing whenever I could. Why? Well I always had a soft spot for the Empire, so I made sure I'd play in a way where the maximum number of Imperials would survive each level and larp that they'd cause some more problems for future Rebel scum.

Shit, it was also fun and different from the usual. Seeing a gaggle of a dozen stormtroopers running around with arms in the air is priceless.


As good as JK and JO were, my favorite has to be Dark Forces. At the time it was such a step up from the simplicity of Doom. Great varied levels and architecture, sound, varied gameplay mechanics...fuck, you could fist fight a Kell dragon FFS!

 

[udm]

JK was the best SP. Simply great level design. To those saying that guns were more useful most of the time: No Shit. If Obi-Wan had a blaster and went into the death star guns blazing he probably could have taken out every stormtrooper there. The game kept a good balance and never made you too powerful. It made sense that the saber was a specialty weapon. Jedi charging head first into legions of enemies and being invincible is one of the worst things to happen to Star Wars.

Some of the boss fights were p. cool too - Sariss, Maw and Bog come to mind. No frills (other than Maw), just a duel to the death with them. Using Force Destruction + Rail Charge on clusters of enemies also never gets old.

In terms of FFA, I actually prefer JK. JK2 may have strafe jumping, but JK's maxed out Force Speed trumps. Gunfights are insane, especially on bigger maps like Bespin.

Shit. Now I feel like playing both JK and JK2 again . Not to mention both games have bevies of mods to choose from...

 

[Average Manatee]

Can't say I found the boss fights in JK to be all that great. The saber combat is just too simple for them. The lead up is excellent though. Those cinematics + Rahn's voice over fit very well and make the fights very personal. JK's saber battles ended up being more memorable for the same reason that the original series fights are more memorable than the SW prequels, even if its stiffer.

JK's multiplayer is just too skewed towards guns and running around winging the saber with the ALT-attack randomly. While the balance works for SP it doesn't work for MP unless you were looking for Quake on crack (which certainly isn't a bad thing, but it's not starwars-y). And you could kill yourself with both Force Speed AND Force Jump.

 

[udm]

Btw sorry I edited my post shortly before you posted. I wasn't sure if I was remembering right that maxed Force Speed can lead to accidental suicides.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Force Speeding into a wall was always fun. I also liked how Force Jump in SBX3.1 was pretty much Force Flight. Mid-air lightsaber battles were just as great as they sound.

 

[Average Manatee]

Force Speeding into a wall was always fun.

I don't know about always fun, but it is certainly always hilarious.

 

[Darth Roxor]

A lot of times you're left having no idea what to do or where to go because there's no subtle-teaching at all (compare this with Doom and it fails).

o_O

I have no idea what you mean by "subtle-teaching" and how it applies to Doom since all you do in Doom is run around shooting stuff and pushing buttons. Also, you sound like you need a quest compass

Then there's the matter of that awful level you have to play through after you get your lightsaber; you think you'd get opportunities to use it once you get it but no, here's a level filled with hitscan snipers and grenade-wielding chumps.

Huh, you mean the game uses subtle teaching to show you that your lightsaber doesn't give you IDDQD?

But yeah, Nar Shaddaa was annoying as all hell because of all the rodians with disruptors. Sometimes it was frustrating, but it did a good job of keeping you alert and making you pay attention to the surroundings. But then again, it's a "general rule of Star Wars" that Nar Shaddaa has to be FUCKING ANNOYING, so whatever.

Also, Nar Shaddaa has a metric fuckton of high-placed ledges. Saying that you can't use your force powers in that level is a lie. Push/pull are useful the whole time, so is speed to run from cover to cover fast to dodge the snipers. Or using speed get the rodians before they get you.

And then there's those old early-mid-2000s favorites, the mandatory stealth, underwaterzero-gravity, and vehicle sections.

Meh. Stealth more like "shoot everyone before they get to the alarm switch", not a big deal. Jedi Knight already had an "augmented gravity, gtfo of a ship about to go boom" level as well. "Vehicle sections" was only a single short level where you stomp stuff in an AT-ST, and getting inside the AT-ST wasn't even mandatory. Jedi Academy was a LOT more guilty of all the above.

And once you play Mysteries of the Sith you realize just how powerful the lightsaber really is.

You sure do. I know I realised how "powerful" it was when I kept raging how I couldn't use my fucking guns in that goddamn endgame swamp or against the sith hounds

but then it takes SUCH a long time before it gives you the saber, it's as linear as the next Modern Warfare

Who cares about the goddamn saber, the first level (Kejim) is pretty much one of the best ones in the game and it has no lightsaber. And you deserve a slap for that Modern Warfare comment, son : x

 

[TripJack]

the first level (Kejim) is pretty much one of the best ones in the game

You really think so? It was better than the second (mining base) level I guess, but I still found that whole portion of the game to be pretty dull.

 

[commie]

Again with the 'hurr durr game is linear like modern shooters' myth. Sorry, but even a game like Doom is essentially linear and broken up into little parts that you tackle at a time just like (gasp!) CoD. You start in a section that maybe has a crossroad and you can go to 4 rooms at each end of it to find some weapons and a key which will open the door to the next section where you do the same thing. It even features spawns just like CoD!(shock horror)


The ONLY FPS games that really allow you some lnon-linearity in gmaeplay are games like Thief, Deus Ex or Arma or Hidden and Dangerous(in some missions) where you get dumped on a map and have a bit of latitude as to how to approach a scenario but depending on your definition even these can be considered 'linear' in a way as you end up having to tackle certain things in a particular order to open up the next sub goal.

 

[Twinkle]

You confuse linear mission structure (which applies to all your examples to some extent) with linear map layout. There *is* a real difference between CoD where p. much all levels literally consist of a single fucking corridor where disobeying script leash leads to instant mission failure versus Doom-likes where you indeed have pass certain checkpoints (find red key -> open red door, find blue key > find blue door etc.) to complete a level yet where at least good half of the map content is optional with minimal artifical boundaries. Triggered spawns are again present in all games you mentioned, but again, there is a huge fucking difference between when games want to fuck you up from time to time versus every enemy encounter boiling down to wave-based spawnfest crap Derp Age-style.

 

[commie]

You confuse linear mission structure (which applies to all your examples to some extent) with linear map layout. There *is* a real difference between CoD where p. much all levels literally consist of a single fucking corridor where disobeying script leash leads to instant mission failure versus Doom-likes where you indeed have pass certain checkpoints (find red key -> open red door, find blue key > find blue door etc.) to complete a level yet where at least good half of the map content is optional with minimal artifical boundaries. Triggered spawns are again present in all games you mentioned, but again, there is a huge fucking difference between when games want to fuck you up from time to time versus every enemy encounter boiling down to wave-based spawnfest crap Derp Age-style.

Nope, I don't confuse them. I even mentioned the distinction. Other people confuse them. You also exaggerate the non-linearity of Doom. It was never some sandbox. Even the out of the way rooms tended to have if not keys then switches to raise a floor just so you could get to the key in another room. There were of course optional areas that would help you in the long run with some extra weapons, ammo, secrets. But basically you had to pretty much visit most places in some sort of order to progress. Of course CoD doesn't compare as it's basically a rail shooter at heart like Operation Wolf or Thunderbolt or Rebel Assault. My problem is that Roguey was wrong to label JO as something similar due to 'linearity'(there's the confusion). JO is not different than Doom in linearity. There are still rooms you have to visit first in order to lower a force field in some other room so you can reach the 'key' in order to get past yet another room. There are also secrets and optional areas. Not that many of course but that's hardly surprising given the type of story driven game it is. CoD on the other hand has every solution to a locked door just a QTE away. There's no backtracking, looking for stuff, everything is within 50 metres of your character.

tl;dr JO is a lot closer to Doom and bears almost no resemblance to CoD in structure and gameplay.

 

[Twinkle]

Got your point and I agree with you. Though not a single arcade corridor shooter could pull a proper sandbox due to inherent limitations of design and technology; I think only some custom missions in OFP (I've yet to try ARMA2 but it most likely applies to it as well) managed to feel sandboxy because you have a huge map with no constraints except natural barriers and unscripted AI with no limits in what kind of weapons and vehicles you could use to complete an objective.

 

[Ulminati]

Ah, good ol' SBX. Spent so much time with that. JO multiplayer often devolved into who could grip+push the enemy faster, since that was a surefire way to send them flying into a pit.

 

[commie]

Got your point and I agree with you. Though not a single arcade corridor shooter could pull a proper sandbox due to inherent limitations of design and technology; I think only some custom missions in OFP (I've yet to try ARMA2 but it most likely applies to it as well) managed to feel sandboxy because you have a huge map with no constraints except natural barriers and unscripted AI with no limits in what kind of weapons and vehicles you could use to complete an objective.

Have you played the Hidden and Dangerous series? That has some truly incredible sandbox style missions. The North African campaign in H&D2 in particular. No scripts for the most part either except for the 'reinforcement arrival' if you trigger an alarm or alert the guards in some way. Even then it usually just spawns a few troops and once they are gone that's it. Every other soldier is already on the map somewhere. You tend to have some general objective: 'steal the documents, capture the enemy commander' etc. but how you approach it is up to you. There are of course more linear missions as well, but that's more due to the nature of the terrain(submarine pen for example). Criminally overlooked series.

OFP had some missions that were really open, custom ones obviously come to mind, but there were some in the campaign. The Red Hammer campaign had a really good one about 5 missions from the end before it goes derp and makes you fight your own people. In in you have to go and kill the rebel leader but for fun you can go all over the map and take out all kinds of US patrols, set up ambushes on tanks, sink patrol boats, shoot down helicopters etc. I ended up killing over 110 enemies, took out a blackhawk, two patrol boats, a M60, several trucks and a M113. Awesome mission, and mostly entirely optional. I just had to take out as many capitalist dogs before the next mission when I was forced to fight fellow Soviets.

 

[Gragt]

I never played Jedi Academy but enjoyed Jedi Outcast very much. Am I missing anything or should I not bother getting JA?

 

[Average Manatee]

I never played Jedi Academy but enjoyed Jedi Outcast very much. Am I missing anything or should I not bother getting JA?

It's a good game. You'll certainly enjoy it even if possibly not as much as JO.

 

[ManjuShri]

I never played Jedi Academy but enjoyed Jedi Outcast very much.

There's much greater variance in the level design and areas which is a plus as that was Outcast's down side, it's easier however so you might want to turn the difficulty up.

 

[commie]

I could never get into JA. There was something clunky about the movement and Luke's appearance and voice scared me. Hated the JA version of Temple of Trials too..all it was missing were the radscorpions.

 

[Average Manatee]

BTW, if anyone is thinking of getting Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith: Don't get the Steam version. The original played its music off the CD. Lucasarts, in their infinite retardation, doesn't include this music for the steam version since it's diskless. Valve, in their own brand of infinite retardation, actually allowed Lucasarts to butcher one of the best SW games ever in this fashion.

 

[Tzaero]

You can make a pizza out of the cutscenes from Jedi Knight

 

[commie]

BTW, if anyone is thinking of getting Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith: Don't get the Steam version. The original played its music off the CD. Lucasarts, in their infinite retardation, doesn't include this music for the steam version since it's diskless. Valve, in their own brand of infinite retardation, actually allowed Lucasarts to butcher one of the best SW games ever in this fashion.

Thanks for this. Was actually thinking of getting it even though I have the original CD's. Won't bother now. Fucking Lucasarts.

 

[Roguey]

A lot of times you're left having no idea what to do or where to go because there's no subtle-teaching at all (compare this with Doom and it fails).

o_O

I have no idea what you mean by "subtle-teaching" and how it applies to Doom since all you do in Doom is run around shooting stuff and pushing buttons. Also, you sound like you need a quest compass

Visual cues. For example, a lot of times in Doom, whenever you hit a dead end, when you backtrack, new enemies will pop out of the monster closets on the path you're supposed to go. There's only one truly bad level in Doom and it's near the very end of episode three (requires "using" a random candle to open a secret area to progress).

As one example of what I'm talking about, there's a level in JO where to progress you have to crouch through a vent and shoot through the grate at a red barrel to blow up a wall. How the hell are you supposed to know shooting a barrel would destroy the wall? The game never presented that mechanic to you in the past, nor is the wall visibly cracked.

Then there's the matter of that awful level you have to play through after you get your lightsaber; you think you'd get opportunities to use it once you get it but no, here's a level filled with hitscan snipers and grenade-wielding chumps.

Huh, you mean the game uses subtle teaching to show you that your lightsaber doesn't give you IDDQD?

That's not teaching, that's introducing you to a new mechanic and then slapping your hand immediately when you try to use it.

And then there's those old early-mid-2000s favorites, the mandatory stealth, underwaterzero-gravity, and vehicle sections.

Meh. Stealth more like "shoot everyone before they get to the alarm switch", not a big deal. Jedi Knight already had an "augmented gravity, gtfo of a ship about to go boom" level as well. "Vehicle sections" was only a single short level where you stomp stuff in an AT-ST, and getting inside the AT-ST wasn't even mandatory. Jedi Academy was a LOT more guilty of all the above.

Not exactly well-done though, are they? Me-tooism rarely is.

Also add "frustrating escort missions" to the list of early/mid-2000 trends that JO also had to include. The worst was the one where you had to escort that bot down a completely straight hallway filled with traps on the floor (that you had to shoot before it'd run over) and dozens of guards to your right that would focus fire on both it and you. All that to open a locked door.

 

[Infinitron]

BTW, if anyone is thinking of getting Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith: Don't get the Steam version. The original played its music off the CD. Lucasarts, in their infinite retardation, doesn't include this music for the steam version since it's diskless. Valve, in their own brand of infinite retardation, actually allowed Lucasarts to butcher one of the best SW games ever in this fashion.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996112

 

[Lyric Suite]

Jedi Knight had some of the sweetest level design i ever had the pleasure to experience in an FPS. Visuals sucked, but they did the job. Music was just lifted from the films, but worked well because they nailed the atmosphere of the game to perfection. It really does feel like Star Wars, unlike everything they did afterwards.

I can barely remember the singleplayer in Outcast, but i remember playing the MP incessantly for months. Academy was a waste of time in that regards (more of the same, except worse), Raven should have made a stand alone game out of the MP from Outcast. Missed opportunity if you ask me.