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Game News Jagged Alliance: Flashback Kickstarter begins

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
What is this bullshit? What makes you think these guys straight up lie? Hell, their second update and notes on how much they want to stick to the core of JA2 is MUCH more than we got from Obsidian (spiritual successor now turned into a much, much different game) or Shadowrun Returns (who never even told us what kind of game we're going to get). The list goes on.

If you pledged to any of these and like JA2, I see no reason not to support this project whole-heartedly.
 

Wizfall

Cipher
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
816
Some can not into reading.
The info provided is very clear and we have a very good idea of what they want to make.
What is problematic is the very low budget and the unknown developer.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
bitComposer still has a say in terms of us not destroying their brand by turning Ivan into a ballerina in a pink shirt and make the game into an endless runner in iOS. But as long as we stay within the defined boundaries of the license agreement, we are free to make the game to our ideas. We are pretty much free to do whatever we want, as long as it stays in the tactical genre however.

Vague... very vague... Wonder if they would be willing to show us those "defined boundaries" from the license agreement specifically? Just my early "vaguely" defined impression, but I am going to say: "Um... Yeah... We are going to need you to come in on Saturday..."
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,257
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
bitComposer still has a say in terms of us not destroying their brand by turning Ivan into a ballerina in a pink shirt and make the game into an endless runner in iOS. But as long as we stay within the defined boundaries of the license agreement, we are free to make the game to our ideas. We are pretty much free to do whatever we want, as long as it stays in the tactical genre however.

Vague... very vague... Wonder if they would be willing to show us those "defined boundaries" from the license agreement specifically? Just my early "vaguely" defined impression, but I am going to say: "Um... Yeah... We are going to need you to come in on Saturday..."

What specifically do you need to know that effects you the customer? The only thing that effects you so far are DRM, and they already addressed that. There will be NO DRM on the base game or future expansions.
 

Xenich

Cipher
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
2,104
bitComposer still has a say in terms of us not destroying their brand by turning Ivan into a ballerina in a pink shirt and make the game into an endless runner in iOS. But as long as we stay within the defined boundaries of the license agreement, we are free to make the game to our ideas. We are pretty much free to do whatever we want, as long as it stays in the tactical genre however.

Vague... very vague... Wonder if they would be willing to show us those "defined boundaries" from the license agreement specifically? Just my early "vaguely" defined impression, but I am going to say: "Um... Yeah... We are going to need you to come in on Saturday..."

What specifically do you need to know that effects you the customer? The only thing that effects you so far are DRM, and they already addressed that. There will be NO DRM on the base game or future expansions.

Well, I would like to know specifically what bitComposer has a say on. That is, not the "general" assurances by an interpreter, but what the legal wording says, how vague it is and what that may mean in terms of possible "influence" in various development decisions. Those boundaries might be "legally" open to allow bitComposer more control than what was initially stated or believed, even by the developer. Often though, these "loopholes" go unnoticed until they are used to apply pressure on the studio. After all, they are developers, not lawyers and that key fact has been one of the advantages the publishers have used against developers.

As for DRM, I really don't care. DRM is a speed bump. Sure, its nice to not have it on a product, but it doesn't keep someone from bypassing it. I crack most of my DRM copy games anyway.


My concern as a customer is how that influence will effect design decisions and the like. What subtle directions they concede or implement due to that influence. Do you honestly think they are going to share the fact that there may be some key controlling factors by the company? They are trying to sell the product and if you go into details about such issues, it can harm your ability to generate favor in your product. The developers may think that those conditions may not influence their vision, that they will be able to adjust and still achieve their goal, so pointing out such they may not see as necessary and only detrimental.

It is understandable, I don't think I would act too much differently if there were such conditions. Fact is, we don't know, we only have the "word" from a new project done by people who have a history of other projects which are not in the line of this genre.

I know I am being extremely cynical here, but can you blame me? I have hundreds of diskettes and CD's of games where I essentially bought a very expensive storage medium or coaster because one thing was said, or "vaguely" interpreted out of "good intentions" to a cause only to result in garbage.

I just refuse to "trust" anymore. Its been too long with the sharks. I am willing to skeptically evaluate (even though cynical at times) and withhold conclusive determination until we see the result, but that is the best I can do until we start seeing a trend of releases that meet their promises.

I hope they do well, I hope my doubts are shown to be unwarranted, time will tell. /shrug
 

Lorica

Educated
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
302
Some can not into reading.
The info provided is very clear and we have a very good idea of what they want to make.
What is problematic is the very low budget and the unknown developer.
Too true. :roll:



We just want to briefly note that we have a lot more updates planned, covering detailed information on the ideas we have for the game. From story to world economy and customization options.
:roll:


Important, core elements of a JA game. I can hardly wait.


“If it ain’t broken - don’t fix it”.
This is where some of the newer games got it wrong we think.
Flashback will be using the same mechanics for the tactical layer as Jagged Alliance 2. We are NOT dumbing anything down or replacing complexity with simplicity.


Sounds good, let's hear some more specifics below!

We are making a new story - using the JA2 core tactical mechanics, selected pieces of 1.13 community patch as well as additions of our own.

[...]

We don't just want Flashback to be a rehash of JA2, we want to ensure that the improvements made by the community are taken into consideration. We want to show you how AIM came about and we want to expand the backstories of your favourite mercenaries. We think these are ample reasons to make a new game for both new and old fans to enjoy!
This is the combat update? Also, what parts of 1.13 are you going to use? Also, I hope you don't mean that literally.

This wouldn't be a true Jagged Alliance game without the hybrid system, therefore we are bringing back the hybrid system, enabling real time positioning your troops while roaming in a given sector outside of combat.
Yay, specifics!

During all phases, enemies are only visible while inside line of sight and a few turns after leaving it again.
Derp, but possibly just communication issues.


To make things a little more interesting while roaming, we are adding fog of war to the game. This adds exploration as part of the game. When entering an undiscovered sector most of it will be black, and is only revealed as you explore it.
This opens up a whole new dimension to the game, and we think it’s something that could really add to the tactical depth of the game.

I think fog of war is stupid, redundant with line of sight, and likely tedious in this game but at least that's a specific they've mention.


Going into turn-based combat will be very much like JA2.
You will have the standard action point system to perform movement, shooting, reloads, detonating C4 etc. The amount of action points for each turn is still depending on the state of the unit in terms of health, fatigue, stress, current stance and even possibly a more complex suppression system like in the 1.13 mod.



Cool, you're not going to change the main draw of the game. It may or may not be equal in quality and complexity as the current game that we all own and play without paying money for.


Enemy Factions
Cool, they might be able to make something like Renegade Republic if they reach their stretch goals.

$450,000 - WATER BOARDING!

Just what JA2 was missing.

Also, it should be noted:

San Christobal

Damned Danes.


It’s become apparent to us that there are a gazillion questions about the details and also a lot of personal wish lists for what should and should not be in the a new Jagged Alliance game. We’re currently in pre-production of the game so we do not have all the little details in place yet, which is also why we’re taking all your feedback in to see which direction to take the game.
We will add more updates through the next weeks that will go into more depth on different aspects. For example we are looking hard at making a more deep stealth mechanism, taking weapon modification into the game and so on.
But end of the day a lot of these details are impossible to answer before we know more about the final budget. Every little feature and art asset costs money to produce. And we want to make sure that we keep what we promise!

Wait, that's it? The update's over? That's the "Combat" update in a tactical combat game? Oh, you don't know any more details than that?

What did we learn?
-Fog of war
-Factions
-Not going to change anything else about the combat, as long as they can recreate it successfully

Meaty.

Look, money is important. But I can tell you now that asking people to give you money when you don't have a specific plan in place is dishonest. Budgets are a bitch, game development is like roadwork in its capacity to overrun time estimates, but any business venture looking for investment saying "yeah, we'll work out all the details once we see how much money we can get" is ridiculous. Grunker, people backed those projects (I assume) due to faith in the people planning them, people who have experience managing game projects, have released, well-liked games, and who have a reputation and career in the industry at stake. These guys don't have that good will--not the track record nor the trust. And for whatever reason, their press releases and interviews so far make them look like opportunists.
 

ksaun

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Beyond Beyond the Beyond
Look, money is important. But I can tell you now that asking people to give you money when you don't have a specific plan in place is dishonest. Budgets are a bitch, game development is like roadwork in its capacity to overrun time estimates, but any business venture looking for investment saying "yeah, we'll work out all the details once we see how much money we can get" is ridiculous. Grunker, people backed those projects (I assume) due to faith in the people planning them, people who have experience managing game projects, have released, well-liked games, and who have a reputation and career in the industry at stake. These guys don't have that good will--not the track record nor the trust. And for whatever reason, their press releases and interviews so far make them look like opportunists.

I think it is wise to consider about the ability and intentions of those behind any Kickstarter, but I can comment a bit on this last part. They're not opportunists.

In between my time at Obsidian and joining inXile, I worked for a serious games company called Alelo. While there, I contracted Full Control to work on one of my projects - a multiplayer language learning RPG called Mission to Senegal (the overall project was called ISLET). I had never heard of them before then and we found them through their involvement in the Unity development community. Mission to Senegal was like an RPG without combat and with speech recognition for multiplayer conversations, designed to teach language and culture to military personnel.

This certainly won't impress you =) but here's a video about the project. It was by no means part of the incline, but it won some recognition in the serious games world. For its budget it was a very ambitious undertaking. Full Control did a large portion of the programming work for the game and they did a fantastic job given the conditions.

I can't directly speak to Full Control's ability to make a great Jagged Alliance game. But I can say that they are very skilled with Unity, understand game/software development, and can move mountains with limited resources. I don't question their intentions or integrity. I backed Jagged Alliance: Flashback day 1.

Kevin
 

Branm

Learned
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Ottawa
Why has this KS not made the front page of codex news? Long time lurker here. Found out about this on the off chance and Kevin here has convinced me to back...
 

Lorica

Educated
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
302
If you pledged to any of these and like JA2, I see no reason not to support this project whole-heartedly.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/218310/

Play it.

ksaun: :salute:for the perspective and the video. Glad to hear about their skills. I don't think that addresses the concern about their grasp of what makes JA2 or the apparent lack of a plan. Moving mountains on a shoestring without a solid plan may be impressive but not something I have high hopes for.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,495
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Branm

Learned
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Ottawa
If you pledged to any of these and like JA2, I see no reason not to support this project whole-heartedly.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/218310/

Play it.

ksaun: :salute:for the perspective and the video. Glad to hear about their skills. I don't think that addresses the concern about their grasp of what makes JA2 or the apparent lack of a plan. Moving mountains on a shoestring without a solid plan may be impressive but not something I have high hopes for.
Ummmmm its an IOS game... wtf do you expect...for what it is iks okay...
 
Self-Ejected

HobGoblin42

Self-Ejected
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
2,417
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Munich
Codex 2013 Codex USB, 2014
Actually, it's an open secret that XCOM made the majority of its profits from Steam/PC. Possibly the vast majority.

I just checked the sale figures and the PS3 sales are really bad, the Xbox360 version did well for a turn-based game, the Steam sales are not available but I agree they could have sold the most copies there.
 

Burning Bridges

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
27,562
Location
Tampon Bay
I wonder if someone thought of contacting Kevin Manthei? He may be too expensive or not available but for me a lot of the flavor and "tempo" came from his music.
 

Lorica

Educated
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
302
Ummmmm its an IOS game... wtf do you expect...for what it is iks okay...

What's that supposed to even mean? That it's impossible to make a good game compatible with that operating system? That they had to make a game that appeals to casual players? That there's some technological limitation that prevents complex games from being developed on iOS? Really, I don't know shit about Apple anything. I do know that people made solid games for the goddamned Gameboy, with four buttons and a D-pad, marketed for children and casuals. And I do know that they sell it on the PC--I'm not emulating it and complaining that it doesn't stack up against PC games--it is a PC game and that's how I judge it.
 

tarasis

Novice
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
22
Ummmmm its an IOS game... wtf do you expect...for what it is iks okay...

There is many a good game on iOS devices, including ports of classics like Baldurs Gate and it will soon see the recent Xcom, Full Controls take on Space Hulk and others.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
What is this bullshit? What makes you think these guys straight up lie? Hell, their second update and notes on how much they want to stick to the core of JA2 is MUCH more than we got from Obsidian

Bethesda is also known to be great fans of Fallout. And Fallout 3 was Codex GOTY 2008 and 2010. It was pretty good for what it is.
So I have no reason to doubt devs making nothing but trash for "soccer dads" and a publisher overlooking them that already released shitty JA rape twice.

One should totally back JA Cashback.

I mean look at all these awesome boundary-pushing games made with Kickstarter's help I list here:
 

cvv

Arcane
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Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,179
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
And Fallout 3 was Codex GOTY 2008 and 2010. It was pretty good for what it is.

yikes-o.gif
 

The_scorpion

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
1,056
telling people what they want to hear 101. A crucial skill in the world of kickstarter. IMHO a little bit more than should be present when you start the campaign.
 
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
442
:takemymoney: I backed it, just because I'm a huge Jagged Alliance fan (not Back in Action..) and have some sort of faith left that they can pull it off somehow, though they definitely need more kwa-bucks to make a Jagged game.
 

Dickie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
4,255
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Kickstarter Update #8 said:
For a while people have been asking us to show more of the game in terms of gameplay and therefore we have decided to make a 3D diorama version of the ruins sector we’re planning, which will give you a real feeling of what we want the game to look like. You will be able to rotate the camera 360°, the distance will be fixed.
I don't think that's what people meant.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Gave $5 to keep appraised of updates.
I'd have given $1 in such case.

Anyway, I'm kind of glad I have no Jagged Alliance nostalgia that could pull me into this one.

I have enough deposits of JA2 nostalgia to feed the entire world and it's still not pulling me into this one. There is a point where you simply practice a bare minimum amount of common fucking sense. It's the same amount that made me say no to BIA as well as to this one. Fuck them and fuck their soccer dad lives, living and breathing pieces of shits.
 
Joined
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Messages
7,428
Location
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Update #2 said:
Flashback will be using the same mechanics for the tactical layer as Jagged Alliance 2. We are NOT dumbing anything down or replacing complexity with simplicity.
We will try to take a look at some mechanics and see if it’s possible to tweak and improve them. A prime example of this is stealth and fog of war. So read on.

A "prime" example? Stealth in JA2 is fucking excellent. And they didn't even elaborate on it either.

To make things a little more interesting while roaming, we are adding fog of war to the game. This adds exploration as part of the game. When entering an undiscovered sector most of it will be black, and is only revealed as you explore it.

This could be incline or end up being plain loathsome. Line of sight better be really long unlike JA2 or "exploration" will be a drag. I can't imagine JA2 with LOS-dependent FOW. It would be painful.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,179
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
It's the same amount that made me say no to BIA as well as to this one.

There is a difference though. With BIA everyone could smell atrocity from mile away. It was clear that this could end only one way.
Granted, Full Control have no lustrous record of beloved hits (or, in fact, any record to speak of)
but for me there still is some hope this thing won't end up in tears.
But I won't pledge, not until they give me something to chew over.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,017
They have to get more than ten thousand dollars per day to succeed, very unlikely, they should relaunch this or pull some stunt that will rakes in lotsa cash.
 

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