Decline Is The Age of Decline over?

[taxalot]

Never forget that with current connexions and with the power of Bittorrent and Abandonware collections there has indeed been no better time to be a PC gamer at all, even should you consider that no worthy game would come out in the future.

 

[Rostere]

Never forget that with current connexions and with the power of Bittorrent and Abandonware collections there has indeed been no better time to be a PC gamer at all, even should you consider that no worthy game would come out in the future.

QFT

 

[Telengard]

The decline won't be over until:
1. RPGs are still being successfully funded after this nostaliga wave kick is past, and
2. RPG companies can formalize a stable source of funding - rather than relying on heaps of volunteer work (which does not a long-term company make, since volunteers soon find better things to do with their time) or relying on whale Kickstarter investors (since whales all-too-soon stop whale investing, that is unless they can buy a say in development).

 

[Norfleet]

Or they get some kind of return on their investment. Otherwise, the whales run out of money, since they never see any of it back. I, for one, flatly refuse to back any of these projects, because I entirely fail to see the point of contributing my money to make someone ELSE rich for no gain, and not even my money back.

 

[dragonul09]

In my honest opinion ,the incline never started.Let's take all the big juicy rpgs that accumulated alot of mulas and see how they turned up to be.

-Wasteland 2 or how i like to call it ,Activate The Radio Tower.Unfinished product toward the end and the first part was horrendeous.The big bad rangers that send 4 people to do all their dirty work while they jerking each other in the stronghold.Strong plot indeed.

-Divinity dumb title Origins.Good combat and that's all ,everything was garbage,from the setting,writing to the horrible puns and ridiculous attempts to make you laugh.Larian just doesnt understand what people really want and if their other project has the same theme,they will lose people ,alot of them.

-Shadowrun returns was decen...meh ,it had some interesting ideas ,they gave us some choices along the game that didn't worth shit and the combat was kinda meh as well,nothing worth mentioning.
-Shadowrun Dragonfall ,again it had some interesting ideas and what do we get ? Save the planet from the big bad DURGUN...

-Pillars of eternity the Encyclopedia ,you want to learn about Wars? Gods? and learn about people behavior? This is the game for you.

People call this crap incline?Even now they can't fucking compete with the games that were made 20 years ago.Garbage settings,mediocre writing and so-so combat ,this ain't no incline motherfuckers.

 

[SniperHF]

3 years ago I seem to remember my RPG options being a quality little gem called Risen 2, A single player MMO named Kingdoms of Amalur, and Auction house the game.

Incline is a spectrum and not a flat standard based on your favorite RPGs. Will the current crop of RPGs and developers lead to future titles which do surpass those favorites? I hope so. But just because they haven't yet doesn't mean things aren't improving.

 

[buzz]

3 years ago I seem to remember my RPG options being a quality little gem called Risen 2, A single player MMO named Kingdoms of Amalur, and Auction house the game.

There was also Legend of Grimrock, Game of Thrones RPG, of Orcs and Men,XCOM EU, Fire Emblem Awakening, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Etryan Odyssey IV, The Last Story, Dragon's Dogma, and maybe Dishonored.

Maybe you just have shit tastes man .

 

[Jools]

Can we finally declare that The Age of Decline is over?

No, we're all fucked.

 

[Drowed]

The truth is that the decline, for the codex, is eternal. It's basically a Shepard tone:



Everything sounds like it falling down the drain, and even when it's not, it is. The truth is that what happens today is the same as what always happened: a few interesting games released in the middle of a sea of mediocrity. The difference is that now there is a (slight) revival in the RPG genre. Many genres are eventually abandoned (point'n'click for one), and 'classic' RPGs were just one of them, when everything was swallowed by the generalization (consolization?) of what RPG used to mean. Now, the market found out that the niche that existed never died - but it's just that, a niche. It is possible that this niche market will eventually stabilize, as well as other niches that have achieved the same (such as "visual novels" that are even frighteningly invading STEAM). But no more than that.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I think you guys are overly pessimistic. Obviously, everything is relative, and we are never going back to the pre-early 2000s days when mainstream PC games were , but let me put it this way. 6-7 years ago or so, I was literally looking forward to almost nothing in PC games. The spectrum varied from complete mainstream shit like Oblivion and Call of Duty to higher quality mainstream shit like World of Warcraft. Well, these days, my bookmarks for games in development that I am looking forward to or interested in are overflowing. Not all of those will succeed, in particular the failure rate for indie and smaller studio games is pretty high, but just the fact that people are tackling interesting ideas and innovating is worth a lot, regardless of whether they make it or not. Because as long as people keep trying to do interesting new stuff, at least some of them will eventually succeed and push things forward for the next bunch.

We've been spoiled in and around the 90s, having an intelligent mainstream market, but thats not how things work and now we are seeing natural balance being restored, with mainstream dumbfuckery and niche sophistication. But take heart from other media, there are intelligent movies being made and intelligent, interesting books written at a regular clip despite the oppression of the summer action blockbusters and romantic vampire/BDSM books. There is no reason why "inclined" games won't exist in the same way, alongside the masses of Call of Skyrims.

 

[CyberWhale]

The Decline is right around the corner. In multiple threads people are proudly stating that they aren't going to kickstart new projects anymore because their backlog of already released titles has grown to an almost two digit number. Homo sapiens isn't a learning animal and he easily forgets the past.

 

[Shaewaroz]

The Decline is right around the corner. In multiple threads people are proudly stating that they aren't going to kickstart new projects anymore because their backlog of already released titles has grown to an almost two digit number. Homo sapiens isn't a learning animal and he easily forgets the past.

The Kickstarter feeding frenzy is indeed over. People are no longer starving for anything even remotely reminiscent to nostalgic games like we did back in 2012. Still, Kickstarter will always remain as a place for devs to collect at least a small part of the intended development budget, and thus it's going to keep on pushing back Decline also in the future.

 

[a Goat]

blah blah social media are killing games

Meanwhile, regardless of it, AAA sell more and more.

People share their achievements in CoD on Facebook so their friends can comment with ever-lasting wooooooooooooooooow. 14 year-olds are the people who are old enough to stop playing with plastic toys, but too young to go out to drinking(and even if they do - it's far too rare to turn it into a way of life). Countries like China are opening their markets. Citizens of countries that were once full of poverty can afford console/PC and some games now and they have positive demographic growth. If anything, social portals are helping with selling games because of viral marketing.

It's obvious that at some point, the market will stop growing. There will be multitude of titles we call AAA today(~20-100M budget, not that many less or more games of this size as we can see today) and few games that do more than that, plus, of course - tons of cheaper projects. Yet the average budget won't grow too much anymore. The inflation phase will stop, but it won't mean that gaming is dying.
Same thing happened to movies and same thing will happen here.

It doesn't mean games will get more sophisticated - people have less time for games when they get older. Regardless of what statistics show, majority of gaming audience will be always 12-17 and 19-24 people, because these are the ones who have time for that.

 

[Hamster]

As much as i enjoy the current incline, what looks to be happening now (at least i hope so) is a remake of 1998-2004 generation of RPGs. That's of course awesome, but the question remains - what do we do when nostalgia trip is over and it's time for a next generation? Like in the middle of 00's, when we were sad that games like Fallout and Torment are behind us, but we were looking towards the next step in RPG progress with excitment, waiting for the likes of Gothic 3 and Oblivion? What do we do when we reach that point again?

 

[Krraloth]

Yes. A new age has emerged. But the dark forces of Romances, Immersion and Awesome are waiting in the shadows to strike back. We shall remain vigilant as one day they they will try to restore the decay and corruption of the genre. We will be ready and we will hold the line. We'll never let the depravity take over everything. Not again. Not as long as we are alive.

Spoiler

You forgot one:

Spoiler

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I selected "The whole question is wrong" because I don't think things ever declined. Unlike most others on the codex who feel there's been a longterm decline starting about 10 to 20 or so years ago, I think it's always been the same. Companies are always cashing in, trying to make a buck. They will throw their customers to the curb if it benefits them. There're a spectrum of games from the low end to the high end, in population terms. Games on the low end serve a niche crowd, while games on the high end serve the broadest audiences. A game isn't just niche or mainstream - it's a mix of things between the extremes on either end.

When games age, no matter their audience, they display common characteristics which resemble all this too. This throws people off, confusing them. Average codexers see a (aging) game getting easier and more casual. Most will like this, but some won't. Many on this forum relate "getting easier and more casual" to the decline. Most mainstream games also seek to be easy and more casual because that's the primary goal of the mainstream. Aging games are desperate. One of the things they do to delay death is to broaden their appeal, effectively casualizing themselves. In MMO's, mudflation can also cause this because low level players might desire the higher levels for a variety of reasons, but mudflation might act as a wall. As a result, MMO games respond by making levelling to the mid and upper range faster. In combination, aging games take on the character of a company chasing the mainstream, but central to this action is a desperate will to survive, NOT a true desire to be mainstream.

The gaming industry is maturing, but it's not fundamentally changing. Kickstarter, frequently hoorahed as the beginning of niche, is an expression of deepening muscle, but that's all. Niche games have always existed, despite some on here insisting before kickstarter all games were mainstream or at least mainstream wannabees. This is simple noit true, and I fail to understand how a gamer who lived through those years can believe there were no niche games before kickstarter. It's so untrue it's laughable.

Before kickstarter, niche games were known as simply being less popular, or otherwise owing themselves to an audience different than the one which is present today. In another thread I used BC3000 AD as an example of a niche game. It was relased in the 1990's to horrible reviews and forums filled with flamewars. By all accounts, it was a disaster, but it gained a sort of cult or niche status. Simulations of that time also were unpopular, and by virtue of this were also niche. Elite-like games similarly were no popular - this is why they we4r rare. Fallout 1/2, by comparison, were much more popular at the time, but compared to todays games, they're niche. I do think the character of the audience 10 years ago was different from what it's today. NAturally, this is what happens when the mainstream grows. The mainstream of yesterday is more niche than the one of today becaus the population is greater.

I think older games are niche today because they served a smaller crowd when they were current. They cannot serve the larger crowd today because they were not geared for it. But some older games are more niche than others.

And note there're also technical issues with playing old games. I, for example, find it hard to play games which do not use the mouse. Most gamers today expect 3d or voiceovers or good GUI's or high resolution or wide screen support. Most gamers at least expect a game to use the fullness of their PC, whether it be AI or graphics or something else. Older games will not use modern systems fully. Even though these technical issues demand a role in this discussion, they can alos be different from person to person. For example, I can probably play and enjoy a text game more than most gamers, even though I prefer the mouse.

 

[markec]

As long as we have indie devs making games like NEO Scavenger and Underrail I will be a happy person.

 

[Drowed]

Underrail is on a league of its own, tho. If indie devs could REALLY make more games like Underrail, the Codex would implode.

Obsidian should just hire Stig to plan the mechanics of their next game. Then, we really would be in an era of eternal decline, because nothing done afterwards could be better that this.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

The Kickstarter feeding frenzy is indeed over. People are no longer starving for anything even remotely reminiscent to nostalgic games like we did back in 2012.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. I think people have supported Kickstaster campaigns without nostalgic value with good funding, as long as those campaigns presented interesting new ideas and/or gameplay, e.g. Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Sui Generis, Starbound. So companies like Obsiidian, Larian, inExile can in my opinion still do well on KS, and if anything, not being able to use nostalgia as a marketing tool can force them to come up with interesting new ideas to attract KS supporters.

It doesn't mean games will get more sophisticated - people have less time for games when they get older. Regardless of what statistics show, majority of gaming audience will be always 12-17 and 19-24 people, because these are the ones who have time for that.

There is a rapidly growing school of thought these days that in the not too distant future, high tech automation (and to a smaller degree outsourcing) will make the majority of human workers obsolete, as a combination of computers, robots and software will be able to do the vast majority of jobs better than any human. If that does indeed happen, then most people will suddenly have a lot of free time on their hands. In fact, out of fear of them growing bored and depressed or rioting, one suggestion seems to be to let people play some video games with goals in order to introduce some purpose to their life (with possibly a healthy helping of drugs as well). So that demographic could expand quite a bit at some point.

 

[Xorazm]

If you take the longview, it almost seems as if the RPG industry is trying to re-constitute itself now, putting all the pieces back together after years of being hacked apart. Talented groups are reforming and the genre is starting to live again. You have a lot of people pitching themselves based on the past because that's rather where the genre stopped, that's the last thing it ever did.

The real question remains to be seen whether there will be enough energy in the current renaissance to lead to a period in which developers can move beyond the shadow of the past into brand new systems and push the genre forward in innovative ways. I think with D:OS and PoE we've had a couple of _near_ classics that consolidate the strength of the renaissance, but I don't know if they quite move the ball forward enough to count among the all-time greats.

Does the market have legs to carry itself past nostalgia and into brand new things? I hope so, but that's really the heart of the question we're facing.

 

[Viata]

If anything, this is the Age of False Hope. Where you hope almost any crpg being kickstarted turns out to be a good game. Where you hope Obsidian doesn't give themselves up to the SJW. Where you hope the dev doesn't sell themselves to the publishers after you help them being kickstarted. This is worse than the Age of Decline, for during the Decline you had already accepted how shit things were. But hey, there're some good crpg out there, so I can enjoy while it last.

 

[Grinning Reaper]

In my honest opinion ,the incline never started.Let's take all the big juicy rpgs that accumulated alot of mulas and see how they turned up to be.

-Wasteland 2 or how i like to call it ,Activate The Radio Tower.Unfinished product toward the end and the first part was horrendeous.The big bad rangers that send 4 people to do all their dirty work while they jerking each other in the stronghold.Strong plot indeed.

-Divinity dumb title Origins.Good combat and that's all ,everything was garbage,from the setting,writing to the horrible puns and ridiculous attempts to make you laugh.Larian just doesnt understand what people really want and if their other project has the same theme,they will lose people ,alot of them.

-Shadowrun returns was decen...meh ,it had some interesting ideas ,they gave us some choices along the game that didn't worth shit and the combat was kinda meh as well,nothing worth mentioning.
-Shadowrun Dragonfall ,again it had some interesting ideas and what do we get ? Save the planet from the big bad DURGUN...

-Pillars of eternity the Encyclopedia ,you want to learn about Wars? Gods? and learn about people behavior? This is the game for you.

People call this crap incline?Even now they can't fucking compete with the games that were made 20 years ago.Garbage settings,mediocre writing and so-so combat ,this ain't no incline motherfuckers.

So, the plot's a bit weak in W2? The great combat's the only good thing in D:OS? Dragonfall's plot is a cliche? PoE has, uh, too much writing for you? In other words, your complaint is that each of these games isn't fucking perfect or that they don't perfectly cater to your desires? Okay then, yeah that's definitely decline. If you weren't enjoying those games more than the other trash that's come out for the last ten years, then move along. If you were, then it's clearly a form of fucking incline. It looks to me that you just like fondly remembering past gaming experiences and enjoy bitching about modern games more than playing them, regardless of their quality.

If anything, this is the Age of False Hope. Where you hope almost any crpg being kickstarted turns out to be a good game. Where you hope Obsidian doesn't give themselves up to the SJW. Where you hope the dev doesn't sell themselves to the publishers after you help them being kickstarted. This is worse than the Age of Decline, for during the Decline you had already accepted how shit things were. But hey, there're some good crpg out there, so I can enjoy while it last.

So, good games being released is a worse state of affairs than only shit being released? Sure, that makes sense. If you enjoyed gaming more than commenting on the state of gaming, you certainly wouldn't think so.




If people want to support incline, they need to vote with their wallets for good games and against trash. That means giving as much of your fucking money as you can afford to Underrail and whatever other quality shit you enjoy and not under any circumstances giving your money to Bioware for fucking Dragon Age trash. The "incline" is an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. The "decline" is and always will be the general state of affairs because it's the culmination of effectively marketing to casuals, which will always be the most profitable business model. The best to ever hope for is to have some developers working on quality shit by making sure that they're funded and encouraged to do so.

 

[Outmind]

People call this crap incline?Even now they can't fucking compete with the games that were made 20 years ago.Garbage settings,mediocre writing and so-so combat ,this ain't no incline motherfuckers.

You mean games like Menzoberanzan, wizardry 7, the eye of the beholder series, king's field, arena, the Ishar series and a whole host of other "dwarves & elves, orks & goblins, evil wizards, explore the dungeon, save the kingdom" olde English high fantasy titles? I'm not saying that they were bad, but to propose that rpg-s 20 years ago had more diverse settings (with a few notable exceptions like albion or dark sun) or deeper storytelling is stretching it.

 

[vorvek]

Not until I see a golden baby fly.

 

[Korron]

In my honest opinion ,the incline never started.Let's take all the big juicy rpgs that accumulated alot of mulas and see how they turned up to be.

I don't think your wrong in your specific criticisms, but did we ever have a golden age of RPGs by your criteria? I don't know that I've ever played an RPG without a flaw. There is certainly enough criticism on this forum that highlights the flaws of our all-time greatest RPGs. If I went back and compared D:OS with ToEE (I think a fair comparison) I don't know that I'd give it to ToEE. Homlett sucked but a lot of people here really hold it in high regard. It will be interesting to see how our opinions change on these new games over the next decade, but at least part of the decline is due to rose-colored glasses I think.

Do you even like RPGs?