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Investing in stores in Oblivion
- Thread starter Lumpy
- Start date
bryce777
Erudite
Lumpy said:
It's not the implementationt hat's the issue, but the stupidity of the basic premise.
Solik
Scholar
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2006
- Messages
- 377
Please get over yourself. The counterpart of the attack-anything-that's-Oblivion-news crowd here is the praise-anything-that's-Oblivion-news crowd, of which I've never been a member. With each "issue" that's mentioned, I either explain why I think it's a good design decision, shrug and chalk it up to a difference in tastes, state my indifference, or join in critique. If I say anything at all.bryce777 said:
I can't believe I feel obligated to point this out, but let me remind you that it's a fucking video game.
See, there you go with that logic again. Watch out, you're about to be branded as a heretic and chased with torches.Lumpy said:
bryce777
Erudite
Lumpy said:
Gothic has one of the worst combat systems in gaming history. I have to think back to the early 80s to come up with something worse - some of the painfully difficult old rpgs with no feedback or strategy that were painfully hard for no apparent reason.
GhanBuriGhan
Erudite
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,170
bryce777 said:
I am sorry, thats just not true. It takes all of 5 minutes to learn, the fights are not particularly hard once you master the principle, and at the same time it's engaging the player in a positive sense for an action oriented game. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with Gothics combat.
bryce777
Erudite
GhanBuriGhan said:
Says the idiot.
Chefe
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,731
HardCode said:
I downloaded the leaked version of Oblivion and ripped a few animations. The perks look really cool.
I've also listed the button combinations.
D - Down
U - Up
F - Forward
B - Back
A - A button
X - X button
Y - Y button
(B button is block, so it's not used in any combo)
Mid-Level Hand-to-hand perk:
Flying Roundhouse Kick
D DB B A A Y D DB B A A X
High-Level Destruction perk:
Shin Goku-Goki
B B F X X Y F X B
Low-Level Destruction perk (EVIL characters only):
Dark Hadouken
D DF F B B
Low-Level Blunt weapons perk (NORD characters only):
Nord Tornado
B F A B F A B F A B A
Low-Level Destruction perk (ARGONIAN characters only):
Flash Blank Lightning
D D X D X D X X
Low-Level Hand-to-hand perk (GOOD characters only):
Super Demon Banishing Kick
F F D DF F Y Y Y Y Y
Mid-Level Blade perk:
Slash Slide
D DF F UF U D YB Y
Low-Level Illusion perk:
Super Saikyo Shoryuken Combo
F B D D XB U D DF B B X U X X D DF F U XY
Mid-level Restoration perk:
Yoga Restore
U U B U B U B U BB U B B X B
Mid-Level Mysticism perk:
Mystic Groove Combat Combo
F X X X Y B Y B A A F X Y B A A F F X Y B B
Mid-Level Destruction perk (EVIL characters only):
Fire Shoryuken
D DF F D DF F A B A B A B A
High-level Mysticism perk (EVIL VAMPIRE characters only):
Bloody Roar
B F X U D X B B X X U X F B B X Y BXY X
High-Level Restoration perk (GOOD VAMPIRE characters only):
Vampire Rejuvinate
U B X X Y XY X B B A X Y X U B U X
High-Level Blade perk (SUPER EVIL characters only):
Demon Death Orgy
D DB B UB U UF F DF D X Y X B Y Y X X B X Y Y Y X X B X X XY X
ANDS!
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 41
I think the term "broken" is being used wrong here:
A broken system is open to exploitation and can thus "break" the immersion factor or enjoyment of the game. I dont see the investment system as being that. To be sure, the overall "merchant gold" system of Morrowind hasnt changed much, but to call it broken is a misnomer of sorts.
As it stands the INVEST SYSTEM works to ensure that the expensive items in the game CAN be sold - and sold repeatedly. The investment system simply raises the "purchase cap" that a merchant is has. So if the MAX hell pay for that EBONY BLADE is 500, invest a bit and that cap (and presumably the cap of other items) will raise as well. Where it becomes unrealistic is in the fact that one can sell as MANY items as they want, and get the same price for each item - even if you flood the market with "rare" artificats. Hopefully this is something they addressed.
As for auctions - how do you code that? What if you dont like the price an NPC thinks your item is worth? Load. . .ReLoad. . .ReLoad - rinse repeat. And a bank system - how would THAT affect merchant prices/sellback/economy. It might be nice to have so you can put your money someplace - but as money weighs nothing, whats the point?
Name ten. Or even five; name five of these "game breaking" issues.
Radiant AI isnt meant to be self-evolving programing - its merely there to create a LESS static world than Morrowind definitely was. Instead of characters doing the same thing over and over again, and seemingly have endless amounts of energy - there will be a bit of randomisity to their actions, as well as having a set schedule they adhere to, and will find ways of getting to.
A broken system is open to exploitation and can thus "break" the immersion factor or enjoyment of the game. I dont see the investment system as being that. To be sure, the overall "merchant gold" system of Morrowind hasnt changed much, but to call it broken is a misnomer of sorts.
As it stands the INVEST SYSTEM works to ensure that the expensive items in the game CAN be sold - and sold repeatedly. The investment system simply raises the "purchase cap" that a merchant is has. So if the MAX hell pay for that EBONY BLADE is 500, invest a bit and that cap (and presumably the cap of other items) will raise as well. Where it becomes unrealistic is in the fact that one can sell as MANY items as they want, and get the same price for each item - even if you flood the market with "rare" artificats. Hopefully this is something they addressed.
As for auctions - how do you code that? What if you dont like the price an NPC thinks your item is worth? Load. . .ReLoad. . .ReLoad - rinse repeat. And a bank system - how would THAT affect merchant prices/sellback/economy. It might be nice to have so you can put your money someplace - but as money weighs nothing, whats the point?
Name ten. Or even five; name five of these "game breaking" issues.
Radiant AI isnt meant to be self-evolving programing - its merely there to create a LESS static world than Morrowind definitely was. Instead of characters doing the same thing over and over again, and seemingly have endless amounts of energy - there will be a bit of randomisity to their actions, as well as having a set schedule they adhere to, and will find ways of getting to.
bryce777
Erudite
ANDS! said:
I don't recall using the quoted term gambreaking.
The problem is, there is no game to break. The combat is oversimplistic, the character system not only overly simplistic but completely and utterly unbalanced; in fact, the character development system is even stupider than morrowind's and I did not think that was possible. There is no dialog. That pretty much wraps up any possibility I would want to play this game right there. If the combat were good and the character development reasonable then I could like it, or if the dialog were as well done as in arcanum or fallout. Even if the sneaking works awesomely, that has zero appeal for me. So, what we have left, gameplaywise is dressing up a dolly and walking around. That's about it.
As it stands there is nothing that could possibly interest me - no matter how good the voice acting and graphics, no matter how good the setting, at the core there is no gameplay for me. If the setting were better done than in fallout and the graphics better than doom3, the game would still have zero appeal to me. Past experience shows that the art will be mediocre in style but high in resource usage, and the story crap, and the setting completely incoherent and senseless. Maybe they will do better in some ways than before, but I don't think we can expect any huge changes - not by anything that I have seen, anyhow...and again, even if we did, it is obvious the gameplay will suck for someone like me so to me it is a worthless game. As it is to most people who say they fancy roleplayign games.
Solik
Scholar
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2006
- Messages
- 377
Can you clarify this a bit? They fixed Morrowind's problem regarding maxing stat bonuses at levelup, and they fixed the all-characters-become-the-same with different math on misc skill levelups (and a bigger focus on using the skill in useful circumstances as opposed to grinding it in an empty field). The birthsigns look mostly the same (which I'll agree is a bad thing, but certainly not worse than Morrowind). Lower total skill count is the only thing I can think of that you could use to qualify the word "stupider," but that's a rather simplistic way of qualifying any system (I'm sure you can think of great RPGs that had a number of skills comparable to 21, or even far below). Not to mention, it also probably results in better balance (just as Morrowind's characters, while still having balance issues, were better balanced than Daggerfall, where it was easier to make a broken character than a standard one).bryce777 said:
bryce777
Erudite
Solik said:
It's just as easy to increase a minor skill now as a major one, and they will increase much faster at first, as well. That's bad because it makes it so (yet again) you can play a level one character that is immensely powerful. this was a problem even in daggerfall, too, I admit, but it was something I would hope would have been taken care of by now. Leveling is based completely on your major skills now, which is slightly worse; before, there was some reason at least to want to increase your secondary ones (and it was harder to do so). Now, it is easier than ever to have an ubermega character who is a super mage god/thief god/warrior god/vampire/werewolf.
"They fixed Morrowind's problem regarding maxing stat bonuses at levelup" From what I heard, this was not the case. If so, then that part is indeed better.
Fewer skills does seem to suck to me. I don't think it is a gamekiller, but it is certainly a needless simplification of an already pretty boneheaded system that could not stand much simplifying.
bryce777
Erudite
Drain said:
Well, there are a million things wrong with gothic's combat.
Ghan, if you don't see what then just do a forum search as the topic has been done to death.
ANDS!
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 41
What term would you call these "many things" that you see wrong with the game?
. . .despite actually having played the game. But I'll bite; what preview/review would have you making that assumption?
For example. . .
There is no speech, or theres no dialogue PERIOD. Because there appears to be speech in the game. And I'm MORE than certain theres a ton of text-dialogue so you're going to have to be a little bit more specific here.
Setting mean what exactly? - The physical setting of TES itself? Of course youre not going to have the same settings, its two seperate worlds - ones post-apoc the other is medieval fantasy. How could it be "better done" if the systems arent even comparable?
Its been so long since I even played FALLOUT that I couldnt even have a discussion on it - but correct me if I'm wrong but FO wasnt billed as "sandbox" gameplay. TES is. Theres a huge difference in what you can delivery content and storyline wise when one game is focused on a TIGHT storyline, and another really isnt.
No offence mate - but a game doesnt become a best-seller on multiple platforms from being "mediocre" and unappealing to fans of the medium. There are many words to describe TES: Morrowind - failure isnt one of them.
Honestly - overall (and again this may have to do with the fact that I dont particularly remember alot about FALLOUT) your argument isnt coming through very well. From the looks of things, you made up your mind about this game long before any preview came out - and I can imagine every bit of information, no matter what it said, having this "uh huh - thats what I thought" reaction to it.
As far as MANY gamers are concerned, if something isnt barely broke - barely fix it. MW - for an open ended, sandbox rpg - had a lot going for it, and a lot holding it back. With OB, looks like theyve improved some areas, obviously graphics, but others just DONT have an easy fix (the economy issue for instance). Overall, I think comparing it to one game or another with different combat systems and different character creation systems, and indeed different gameplay itself - is a bit pointless.
bryce777
Erudite
ANDS! said:
Or, it could be you are just a complete moron, like every other oblivion and morrowind apologist.
As I said, the game has zero appeal to me. I should know, being me. Dialog equates to interactive speech of some kind, not a wickipedia and a few cutscenes. The 'interactive' dialog in oblivion is a fucking arcade game! You have to be fucking kidding me.
Also, you are again misquoting me - I never said "many things". This perhaps is another datum point in a solid argument you are just an idiot, though.
The combat may appeal to some, but not to me. It is very arcadelike and has absolutely no tactics to it, except perhaps some cheesy ones like running backwards and shooting - exploits.
As I said the character system is simplistic and stupid.
These are pretty much the core elements of what make a game an RPG. Therefore, when viewed as an rpg, oblivion is bound to be a piece of shit. That does not mean some people will not like it, but most of those people are likely people who would hate classic rpgs like ultima, wizardry, fallout, etc. or simply would not have the patience to get into them.
If what you want is some LARP simulation and some midless action and spellcasting, a singleplayer version of a MMO then you are good to go. If what you want is a an rpg and you're an rpg fan then I can't imagine you would be able to get too excited about oblivion unless you are a diehard modder.
Solik
Scholar
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2006
- Messages
- 377
I'm pretty sure this is untrue. I recall reading some dev quotes that stated exactly the opposite. Well, your really low skills might increase a little faster depending on how the math works (that is, the extreme low value for the skill may be more of a factor than the fact that it's a misc skill for a little while).bryce777 said:
I'm not sure the conclusion follows from the premise here. I don't see how seven major skills instead of five major and five minor makes it easier to have an "ubermega" character.bryce777 said:
There's been a few threads here that mentioned this. The way it works now is, the gains you can get for a level are limited. Overflow goes to the next level. So, you can't increase a whole bunch of skills, gain one level, and get the stat benefit of multiple levels' worth of skills; you get one level's worth, and the remainder will apply to your next levelup. I'm assuming that either misc skills don't give stat bonuses, or they're calculated in a similar manner with the overflowing.bryce777 said:
bryce777
Erudite
Solik said:
On the first point, you are wrong according to msfd. That was a while ago and it could have been changed, but I doubt it.
On the second, it makes it easier to have all your main skills as minor skills without going up a level. It was not that hard before, though, so it should not matter much.
On the third, miscellanious skills do indeed provide a bonus. If there is some other limitation, then that is news to me. A good thing to fix, but not something that will make the basic boring system itself any more exciting.
ANDS!
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 41
I actually didnt like MORROWIND - but hey, this is the internet. We'lre all omnipresent and beyond reproach in our opinions.
Id hope so. But that qualifies as an opinion, not something representative of RPG Players in general.
Please explain -
I cant imagine any conversation piece that is gleaned from using the SPEECHCRAFT system will result in someone being unable to complete the "main storyline". However, discovering hidden quests and getting important information that might make a quest EASIER is a benefit of being good with the SPEECHCRAFT system. Personally - it s more involved and FUN to actually have a hand in my success in getting information, than it being a result of a single number rolled off-screen.
As opposed to what - chosing an action and having the computer determine whether your strike hits or not?
Well - that clears it up.
What kills me, is that you reference these older RPG's (computer RPG's) - and they seem to epitome old-school; dungeon crawling, stat managing, off-screen die-rolls - etc. Is THAT what a "great" rpg is supposed to look and play like? I would think RPG's - like any genre - should (and would) be able to evolve to take advantage of newer technology (Technical as well as Graphical improvements) and not stay static for fear of "selling out".
bryce777
Erudite
ANDS! said:
There is nothing new in oblivion. Graphics do not and should not make up gameplay. Oblivion is actually a reversion to a time before the better rpgs came out. It is closer to an arcade game in most aspects, except for the LARPish aspects of playing dressup dolly.
I explain in detail what is wrong with the character system responding to someone else. Actually, the real problem is that it's simplistic and boring - I can't break it down more than that because that is as simple as it gets, so I will clarify by defining these terms a bit and showing their results. All players are ultimately the same as each other. There is no real defining lines of specialization, no vastly different tactics or meaningful special builds - no aching decisions on whether illusion will be more useful or some other magic school. Everyone can master everything and be a powergaming god. Woohoo!
If you don't like the games I mentioned, you don't like RPGs. All the elements in oblivion were around before games like that were made. Oblivion should not even be covered by the codex,a nd the constant mewling of oblivion defenders is highly annoying. To be fair, VD will cover any game claiming to be an rpg, but slapping the name rpg on it does not make it so, any more than space hack is an rpg, or diablo, or gauntlet.
As for the arcade game, that is what we call the 'gameplay'. In some games you have to carefully pay attention to what is said, or carefully choose your responses during dialog. In this game, you click on various icons. Removing that, there is no gameplay to 'dialog'. This thing called 'dialog' is by definition interactive. Reading text is not a dialog, a dialog is between two people or enteties, etc. Therefore, obviously there is no dialog, and certainly there is no gameplay associated with 'speaking' to others except the idiot arcade game.
If this doesn't get the point across for you, I imagine nothing will.
ANDS!
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 41
The graphics dont make gameplay - they add to it.
If you put the time into it to do that. Most wont. Most will limit THEMSELVES to playing a particular character and focusing on specefic skills so that their chracters ARE specialized. However, that Bethesda didnt put in this limitation, doesnt mean its somehow encouraging carbon-copy playstyles and characters - merely that should a person want to take their character in a different direction. . .they can. If I sat down ten people, and told them to create their own unique characters, and play the game for 25 hours, I can garuantee that while they mave have covered similar ground - that they each took their characters in vastly different directions.
I remember playing WIZARDRY a couple years ago - while I enjoyed the absolute old school appeal of the game, its strict adherence to non-evolution bothered me then, as it bothers me now. If THAT is your ideal of a real RPG then great. However, having a character handed to you and being told, "this is how you will play Character X" - not too appealing these days, unless the character is SO incredibly written, and the atmosphere itself makes up for lack of freedom.
But really, that comment isn't so much a fact, as it is an opinion. A pretty hollow one at that.
It is the gameplay as it relates to SPEECHCRAFT, not the crux of the game. And it is by no means REQUIRED. The "mini-game" associated with conversation is only to add a level of interaction to the "bribe" commands that appeared in Morrowind, to give the player more of a visual clue as to the effectiveness of their charm, personality.
Nothing previewed suggests OB is any different.
Again - part of the SPEECHCRAFT/CHARM system and not neccesary to complete the game.
Id really go back and read some of the FAQS on OB before dropping Non-Sense-Bombsâ„¢ like these. You're arguing about a system that isnt in the game.
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