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Indie Friendly Development Tools

Self-Ejected

Davaris

Self-Ejected
Developer
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
6,547
Location
Idiocracy
It might be because the creator (Eric Lengyel) concentrates on tech rather than art. It probably has all the tricks of other modern engines (e.g. displacement mapping, post-processing, fancy AA, etc), but it doesn't look like he has created or acquired the art to show it off.

Also, all of the demos show a FPS. It would probably be worth his while showing other game types, to appeal more broadly.

There is a big quality difference between Unity Free and Pro. You don't have access to a post-processing framework in the free version, so the quality is going to be limited - i.e. I think most Unity Free demos and games coming out at the moment look like 8-10yo tech. With the Pro version, you can get your game looking as good as most current titles, as long as you have the art and shader development skills...

That FPS you see, is stripped out of Eric's indie game. He works on it when he's not working on his engine and that time is very limited I imagine. He only has one artist doing the art and I think the artist is part time.

An experienced programmer will be able to look at the demos and API and know what can be done with it. I'm not much interested in graphics myself, I'm only interested in how RPGs are put together, but the experienced graphics programmers at the forums say, they like C4 because of its "clean renderer", whatever that means.

as long as you have the art and shader development skills

It always comes down to skill. Saw a great looking RPG here a few months back being Kickstarted by Russians. They used Ogre, because they said they can't afford Unity and everything about the look of the game, came down to the skill of their artists. It had nothing to do with the engine.

Now if they had made that game on C4, everyone would be saying how awesome C4 is, because thats how people are. Thats why big game engine makers spend a fortune on their demos, because they know flashy demos are what sells game engines.

Having said that about fancy demos, here's a video from a talented kid that uses C4. He does crazy things with it, I wouldn't have a clue how to do. Have a look around his channel, if you want.



Edit:
He got the lighting to work with the girl using an environment light, with small values for shadow casting. He said the impact on performance was small. He was still trying to figure out how to make her cast a shadow.

 
Last edited:

JMab

Augur
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
177
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I think that video is a good example of both "looks being mostly about artist's skill" and "C4 has technical features that are probably not being exploited fully by its demos".

The developer is using a high-end modelling tool (3DS Max) and a global illumination via ray tracing plugin (V-Ray) that produces a pre-baked lightmap. As he says that's all done offline and the results could be imported into any engine and look the same. He uses a C4 "trick" (volumetric radiosity spaces) to simulate some lighting on dynamic objects in the scene, like the moving character.

The environment looks great, because 3DS Max and V-Ray are pro tools, and this guy obviously knows how to use them to model and render excellent environments. I don't think the radiosity spaces do that great a job though - the lighting on the character is not very similar to the environment around it. I've seen radiosity spaces done better, so maybe he just wasn't using the C4 implementation properly...

I know pre-baked global illumination (GI) produces undoubtedly superior results, but personally I'm OK with fully dynamic lights + Screen Space Ambient Occlusion. SSAO is a hack compared to GI, but I think having the static and dynamic elements in the scene being lit consistently by dynamic lights is a preferable approach...
 
Self-Ejected

Davaris

Self-Ejected
Developer
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
6,547
Location
Idiocracy
The environment looks great, because 3DS Max and V-Ray are pro tools, and this guy obviously knows how to use them to model and render excellent environments. I don't think the radiosity spaces do that great a job though - the lighting on the character is not very similar to the environment around it. I've seen radiosity spaces done better, so maybe he just wasn't using the C4 implementation properly...

The other demo he did that impressed me as a graphics yokel, was turning one environment into another using a shader. I saw them do similar on Divinity Original Sin and thought it was a really nice effect.

 

JMab

Augur
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
177
Location
Melbourne, Australia
The other demo he did that impressed me as a graphics yokel, was turning one environment into another using a shader. I saw them do similar on Divinity Original Sin and thought it was a really nice effect.

Yes, that's a good effect. He calls it a "burn out shader" in the comments. Haven't come across that before...
 
Self-Ejected

Davaris

Self-Ejected
Developer
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
6,547
Location
Idiocracy
For sure it qualifies. One of the best IDEs in the world is now free for indies. Best news I've heard in a long time.
 

JMab

Augur
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
177
Location
Melbourne, Australia
That is good news. The Visual Studio Express versions were getting strangely fractured - e.g. you developed a C++ game in the VS2013 Express Desktop version, but you could only use the graphics debugger from the VS2013 Express Windows version.

Will be good to get the graphics debugger in the same IDE, plus the nifty extra tools and extensions that have only been available in the pro version.

Will be easier to run random graphics samples out of the box too, as many of them you find on the net have minor dependencies on pro-only frameworks like MFC.

Nice one MS.
 

StevePark

Barely Literate
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
1
I recall C4 being one of the most shiny game engines some 7 years ago. It looked very futureproof and modern... but when I look at it now, I can hardly see any progress since then.

That is the most insanely idiotic statement I have ever heard. Here's a link to the C4 demo from 7 years ago (last version released in 2007):

http://www.terathon.com/C4Build145.zip

Here's where you can download the current demo (version 4.0):

http://www.terathon.com/download-win.php

Anyone here who looks at both of these will immediately understand that the C4 Engine has made enormous advances over that time period. In their eyes, everything you've ever said will be categorically discredited, and you will be exposed for the monumentally pathetic fanboy and hater that you are. A quick look through the last 7 years of release notes reveals all of the following major features that have been added (not even mentioning the myriad of smaller features added as well):

  • Complete built-in physics library
  • Seamless multi-resolution voxel terrain (see Transvoxel Algorithm)
  • Large-scale water simulation / oceans
  • Impostor system for massive forests
  • Advanced visibility detection system
  • SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion)
  • Radiosity spaces (for real-time global illumination)
  • Voxel-based blob particles / metaballs
  • Volumetric light shaft effects
  • Paint spaces (for arbitrary painting on geometries)
  • Built-in movie format / codec
  • Support for the PlayStation 4
  • Support for Linux
  • Graphical shader editor
  • Graphical script editor
  • GUI / panel editor
  • Open Game Engine Exchange format

This is what you're calling hardly any progress? Go back to the rock you live under and stay there.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I recall C4 being one of the most shiny game engines some 7 years ago. It looked very futureproof and modern... but when I look at it now, I can hardly see any progress since then.

That is the most insanely idiotic statement I have ever heard. Here's a link to the C4 demo from 7 years ago (last version released in 2007):

http://www.terathon.com/C4Build145.zip

Here's where you can download the current demo (version 4.0):

http://www.terathon.com/download-win.php

Anyone here who looks at both of these will immediately understand that the C4 Engine has made enormous advances over that time period. In their eyes, everything you've ever said will be categorically discredited, and you will be exposed for the monumentally pathetic fanboy and hater that you are. A quick look through the last 7 years of release notes reveals all of the following major features that have been added (not even mentioning the myriad of smaller features added as well):

  • Complete built-in physics library
  • Seamless multi-resolution voxel terrain (see Transvoxel Algorithm)
  • Large-scale water simulation / oceans
  • Impostor system for massive forests
  • Advanced visibility detection system
  • SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion)
  • Radiosity spaces (for real-time global illumination)
  • Voxel-based blob particles / metaballs
  • Volumetric light shaft effects
  • Paint spaces (for arbitrary painting on geometries)
  • Built-in movie format / codec
  • Support for the PlayStation 4
  • Support for Linux
  • Graphical shader editor
  • Graphical script editor
  • GUI / panel editor
  • Open Game Engine Exchange format

This is what you're calling hardly any progress? Go back to the rock you live under and stay there.
:butthurt:
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
Rant, a language for procedural text generation. Looks neat, I guess.

What is Rant?
Rant is a language for adding rich variations to text. It combines a markup language with functional and imperative programming concepts to deliver a concise but powerful tool for procedurally generating text. The goal of Rant is to augment human creativity with the boundless potential of randomness, enabling content producers to consider their next idea as not just a concept, but a seed for countless possibilities.

Features
Some of the highlights of what Rant offers:
  • Recursive, branching choices with various selection strategies (random, ordered, locked...)
  • Access to external dictionaries using queries
  • Word rhyming using pronunciation metadata
  • Synchronize sections of random output
  • Automatic capitalization
  • Indefinite article (a/an) automation
  • Multiple outputs (channels)
  • Probability modifiers
  • Overwriting (targets)
  • Looping (repeaters)
  • Conditionals
  • List objects
  • Subroutines
  • Arithmetic
  • And much, much more...

https://github.com/TheBerkin/Rant

Online interpreter: http://berkin.me/rantbox
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,086
Does anyone else have a dev boner for Reactive Extensions? RxJava 1.0 is becoming mai waifu.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
I don't know where to post.

So I was on Win XP using Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Express, using Allegro 5. I decided to change OS - XP is past is helf life - to Ubuntu/Kubuntu 14.04 LS. I installed Codeblocks and it's using the GNU GCC Compiler.

My question is what next? I'm not very good at game programming, just a hobbyist. I won't spend money either.

Should I just continue to use Codeblocks and GNU GCC Compiler and figure out how to integrate Allegro with it?

Or should I use something else? But what? I read about Pygame, but I don't know a lot. I've used Python in limited ways, however. It seems attractive, especially if the executables are independent of OS.

Also how easy is it to distribute programs I make in Ubunut/Kubuntu 14.04 LTS? In windows, it was easy enough: The executable runs on XP/7/8. If I want to distribute a program, does it have to include all its source?
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,086
If you're happy with Allegro, stick with it. Choose your own IDE from whatever works for you and continue.

If what you want is alternatives (not recommendations)

For C++ frameworks:
* SFML
* SDL2
* Marmalade
* Cocos2d-X

For IDEs:
* Code::Blocks
* CLion + CMake
* Sublime + GCC
.
.
.
.
* Being shot in the stomach
.
.
.
.
* Butt cancer
.
.
.
.
.
* Eclipse
 
Last edited:

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,086
If you do want to change to a different poison, pick one:

Python with Pygame
C# with Monogame - just meh on Linux
Java with libgdx - My poison
Lua with Love2D - Good for prototypes, bad for distributables
HTML5 - ???
Haxe with HaxeFlixel - Flash minus flash, with a paint job
I'm actually a designer and don't want to code that much - Unity3D
I'm actually just dicking around with games - GameMaker - surprisingly easy to put something together in this
Godot Engine - up and coming, don't know much about it
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
Game Maker looks interesting. Do you need money though?

I still am not sure how easy it's to distribute in Ubuntu/Kubuntu and how much source needs to be included. Can I just as easily as I do in Windows produce a release package on my system and then run it on another Ubuntu/Kubuntu setup?

What I know is Kubuntu and Ubuntu are almost the same and are based on Debian, I think.
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,086
GameMaker is probably windows only and yes, it has a small upfront investment because the free version may not be enough for what you need. Sorry I forgot about it.

About redist, windows, same as linux, require all linked libraries (dll in windows, so in Linux) + assets + executable. Usually there are systems that do it for you depending on your needs. I'm not experienced with them sadly.
 

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