Icewind Dale series compared to the Baldur's Gate series

[Wyrmlord III]

Every now and then, a few posters on this forum would ask, "How can anyone prefer ID over BG?" or "What sort of person thinks ID series is the best of the IE games?" Suchy, Black, and others have echoed this thought a couple times.

Well, I am that sort of person (and maybe Darth Roxor too) who does think so. And I thought it might be interesting to explain why I think so, even though I understand I won't change anyone's mind about these decade old games. It's more for bouncing off these opinions and wondering if anybody else ever felt the same.

Disclosure: I have my own bias in that Icewind Dale was one of my first RPGs, or my very first RPG I think, while I played BG almost a decade after its release. So yes, it does not help that I played one close to the time of release and the other after it had aged badly.

The Icewind Dale games start on a high, persist on a high, and end on a high.
This difference alone is a major factor for me. Yes, the Baldur's Gate games do reach their epic moments much later. But starting off in the early forest in BG1 or Chateau Irenicus in BG2 always felt too low key for me. There are no interesting enemies to fight, no large scale encounters, and no intensity or heat in the situations you face. Icewind Dale has you killing hordes of goblin armies from the start, moving on to a dozen yetis and ancient ghosts, and then onto the lizardmen in Dragon's Eye. The first five hours are so compelling you feel you are reaching for an early climax. The BioWare habit of keeping trash mobs in the early hours of the game have not made me their biggest fan.

This point alone may be the only reason, and everything else is entirely peripheral by comparison.

Nobody in the Icewind Dale games talks like a LARPer or a faggot.
.
..
...
Haha, no, I am just joking. This judgment is probably too harsh, I admit. Still, even though this factor doesn't make or break a game, it is something that annoyed me in Baldur's Gate. The caricature medieval accents when clicking on Candlekeep guys and the "Hi-ya!, I'm Imo-en." made me cringe. The long-winded medieval-style dialogue by every generic NPC to make a simple point did not win me over either. In Icewind Dale, for some reason, when I first listened to the dialogue by the priest in Easthaven, I just stopped to read and listen to his story about the wartime sacrifice in which a warrior froze himself into a portal. That was well-delivered, without being in the phony talking style of a typical BG NPC. (Now, if you like the BG voice acting, more power to you, because that means you got to enjoy BG a lot more than a sucker like me did.)

There are no loss-of-control or passive moments in Icewind Dale.
Surely I am not the only one who resents watching the Gorion-Sarevok confrontation, or the arrest of Irenicus by the mages for illegal use of magic, over and over again. I hate losing control, and I just want to be the one in charge at all times, instead of having to be a passive spectator to a cinematic that can't be skipped. I think ID wins points for trying to tell its narrative through the setting and environments rather than by cut-scenes, because that is something more suited for the gaming media.

These are not the only points, but I'll stop here before I make an enormous wall of text. All I can say is that I enjoyed Icewind Dale enough to play it twice from start to finish, while I did not enjoy either of the Baldur's Gate games to finish them once. I still accept, though, that I might be completely wrong and that I am not doing it right. Perhaps enjoying BG requires a different mindset from enjoying ID.

In which case, what would BG fans say that mindset would be? More patience? More slowing down and smelling the roses?

 

[Surf Solar]

I am liking both series, but IWD a lot more. I don't particulary care for the story in Baldur's Gate, nor do I care for the silly companions. I am playing these games because I somehow enjoy the aesthetics (even much more in IWD), the playstyle and the combat. IWD doesn't annoy me with whiny characters and I can minmax the shit out of my party, without having to worry that some character might not like the other one.

So, steamrolling with a bunch of adventurers through big dungeons and collecting loot vs. a more story focussed game - it's easy to see someone might like one above the other.

 

[Gragt]

I remember having trouble at first with IWD because I expected a game like BG. When I switched the neurons to explore dungeons, kill stuff and get loot, it all went much better and I had a blast.

 

[hoverdog]

Disclosure: I have my own bias in that Icewind Dale was one of my first RPGs, or my very first RPG I think, while I played BG almost a decade after its release. So yes, it does not help that I played one close to the time of release and the other after it had aged badly.

I have the same, only the other way around: Baldur's Gate was my very first real cRPG, and I loved it immensely, and Icewind Dale I got only several years later. Thus, thanks to nostalgia, I prefer BG over IWD - but I love them both. To be honest, even though I'd rather have turn-based combat than RT, for me infinity was the best rpg engine ever (ToEEngine would have been if, well, there was a single good game running on it).

IWD has better combat (encounters) and - arguably - prettier landscapes, but its main fault is that it's completely linear. BG's plots weren't that great either (though I liked them), but those games allowed for at least some degree of freedom.

 

[MMXI]

Yes, the Baldur's Gate games do reach their epic moments much later. But starting off in the early forest in BG1 or Chateau Irenicus in BG2 always felt too low key for me. There are no interesting enemies to fight, no large scale encounters, and no intensity or heat in the situations you face.

Baldur's Gate II had a rather boring start of course, because you were stuck in that dungeon for a good while without many challenging battles. But the first half hour of Baldur's Gate was more interesting as you would probably have battled the mage outside the Friendly Arm Inn and the ogre at the crossroads to the south. Plus it was all pretty open. You could have gone to Beregost and had a fight with Silke, or gone north of the Friendly Arm Inn and fought some ankhegs.

Surely I am not the only one who resents watching the Gorion-Sarevok confrontation, or the arrest of Irenicus by the mages for illegal use of magic, over and over again. I hate losing control, and I just want to be the one in charge at all times, instead of having to be a passive spectator to a cinematic that can't be skipped.

The thing is, the Gorion-Sarevok confrontation was effectively the start of the game. In effect it was the opening cinematic. The "chapter" inside Candlekeep was a prologue full of irrelevant fetch quests, tutorials (from those green robed guys), practice battles and dialogue that holds no relevance to the plot.

Baldur's Gate II is completely different though. The starting dungeon holds lots and lots of plot related information that tells you a lot about the nature of Irenicus... and then control is taken away from you in the Irenicus battle with the Cowled Wizards. This is majorly decline because my own characters doing retarded things is retarded, and this retarded thing Imoen does is the centre of the plot for the first four chapters.

Of course, these aren't the only times in the games where control is taken away from you, so you're correct in that Icewind Dale does things much, much better.

 

[FeelTheRads]

IWD > BG if only because there's no annoying retard with a stupid hamster.

But yeah, the thing that would have made the IWDs really awesome would have been more exploration/optional content.

 

[ghostdog]

BG2 was better than all the rest. BG1 was the first IE RPG I played and I liked it at the time, but in retrospect it's kinda bland. The IWDs had better combat, but things got a bit too repetitive and it was just one area after the other, not much room for exploration or anything else. I like variety, big cities and well-thought combat encounters and BG2 had it all in a nice bundle.

 

[sea]

These are all good points. Icewind Dale is just more tightly designed overall. It doesn't have a pointlessly epic, overwrought story where you play the Chosen One that takes itself more seriously than it has a right to. It doesn't have annoying "hey look at me!" characters who are based on personality gimmicks (i.e. Minsc). It doesn't have tons and tons of filler and pointlessly long dungeons with nothing but traps and trash mobs. It doesn't have huge expanses of landscape to roam with almost nothing of interest to do in them.

Instead, what it has is a solid and simple but well-told, well-presented story that fits D&D like a glove. Its characters, when they are defined, are interesting and reasonably complicated, avoiding stereotypes and rarely painted with broad brushstrokes. Just about every combat encounter is interesting, due to enemy composition, their skills, the environment you fight them in, and because there is a ton of variety and the game rarely goes for the simplest, easiest creatures - no goddamn orcs and hobgoblins here. It is well paced, with dungeons that feel lengthy but never too arduous or pointlessly protracted, and you're always going to see a new great-looking environment every couple of hours, or you'll get a cool boss fight against some massively powerful enemy. There are secrets and puzzles that are actually challenging to uncover and solve, rather than tedious or frustrating.

It's not to say that Baldur's Gate is all bad. Durlag's Tower in the expansion is really, really well done, even if just a bit monotonous, with a good mix of puzzles and combat, plus an interesting storyline throughout. But whereas Baldur's Gate has a lot of mediocre content you have to sift through to get to the good stuff, Icewind Dale really has no downtime. I'll take 25 hours of excellent gameplay over 100 hours of boring filler any day. Baldur's Gate 2 didn't really have great gameplay all the time, but it had a lot of variety, which was its key strength. Even though I personally can't stand the writing, it really does give you just about everything you would want out of a high fantasy game.

Also, it's astounding how much better Icewind Dale's writing is. I never really noticed this when playing years ago, but going back to Baldur's Gate and the sequel, the writing is just... bad. In the first game, it's quaint, but the cheesy Ren faire lines get annoying fast, and smack of bad fan fiction. In Baldur's Gate 2, everything goes melodramatic - it's all about death, shadow, mind rape, etc. not because it really helps the story in any way, but just because "evil and darkness is cool." Baldur's Gate 2 was the birth of the "BioWare are about story and characters" stuff that has defined their games since... but aside from generally getting a bit worse over the years, just because they were one of the only developers making larger, complicated stories at the time doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact that most of it was also rather shit. I mean, Planescape was in development during the original Baldur's Gate, and came out before Baldur's Gate 2... those are some high standards to meet.

The series also has an uncanny ability to create stories and characters and then expects you to give a shit about them without giving a good reason why. Rescuing Imoen is the primary motivation behind Baldur's Gate 2, but what if you never liked her and got rid of her at the beginning of the first game? Well guess what, now she's the driving hook in the game because a) she's recognizable and b) she's hot hot loli fan bait that male players are supposed to feel sorry for. Baldur's Gate 2 really does have some of the worst, most pointlessly sympathetic writing out there, whether that's the main plot or all the sub-plots like "I want to fuck you now that your husband is dead" Jaheira, or the completely fucking stupid "I'm a winged elf who got my wings torn off and was raised in a circus all my life" Aerie. The first game was generic and bland in the extreme, and other than Gorion dying there's basically no reason to give a shit about the "iron crisis" or Sarevok's evil plan... but at least it didn't resort to cheap pandering as motivation.

 

[MMXI]

It doesn't have tons and tons of filler and pointlessly long dungeons with nothing but traps and trash mobs.

Just about every combat encounter is interesting, due to enemy composition, their skills, the environment you fight them in, and because there is a ton of variety and the game rarely goes for the simplest, easiest creatures - no goddamn orcs and hobgoblins here.

But whereas Baldur's Gate has a lot of mediocre content you have to sift through to get to the good stuff, Icewind Dale really has no downtime.

What? Did we play the same game?

The first game was generic and bland in the extreme, and other than Gorion dying there's basically no reason to give a shit about the "iron crisis" or Sarevok's evil plan... but at least it didn't resort to cheap pandering as motivation.

Sort of like why there's no real reason to give a fuck about the plot of the Icewind Dale games.

 

[sea]

What? Did we play the same game?

Icewind Dale, as I recall, has you fighting yuan-ti, ice trolls, ghosts and spirits, giant yetis, fire giants, wyverns, mind flayers, giant mushrooms, iron golems, lizardmen, etc. as a matter of course. This was all ostensibly in a "low level" D&D campaign. Meanwhile Baldur's Gate was stuffed full of gibberlings, xvarts, hobgoblins and skeletons - probably 90% or more of the combat was against those enemies alone.

Granted, Baldur's Gate 2 got way better. Werewolves, beholders, vampires, dragons, etc. Plus, the mage battles were really fun even if the enemies were a little bit broken. But even so, it's still "only" about on par with the Icewind Dale series, and it still has less variety and more filler overall.

Sort of like why there's no real reason to give a fuck about the plot of the Icewind Dale games.

I dunno. At best, you have a very real and immediate threat (the demon army in Icewind Dale 2, opening a portal to bring back an evil god or whatever in Icewind Dale). At worst, you can always say "I'm a mercenary, I'm just in it for the money and fame." Baldur's Gate, especially Baldur's Gate 2, pushes a whole bunch of external motivations on your character and assumes you should care about them.

While getting the player emotionally invested in a story is hard, I'd rather have a simple "save the land/world/etc." than a game insulting my intelligence by providing no good reason for me to care about its story other than "hey it's a cute girl you should probably rescue her because maybe you can heal her emotional wounds and she will have sex with you a lot."

The series really could have used a doomsday device or some other kind of crap, just in case players didn't care about Gorion, getting into Imoen's pants, Sarevok's pointlessly convoluted conspiracy, or Irenicus' emo ramblings.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

IWD is a well honed, throbbing veiny cock of a game. Blue steel motherfuckers, blue steel.

As an adult, BG series is unplayable. They're titles made for runny nosed, spotty faced, bean eating cunts. White kids: Suburban chronicles.

 

[Johannes]

I didn't finish IWD exactly because it had so much filler combat. I mostly just kited everything with archers until the dragons eye, where I started to use skull trap and fireball more. Apparently there would've been some good stuff deeper in Dragons Eye and later had I kept playing, but I just couldn't care at that point.

Sure, BG also had a lot of it but there you at least had some real freeform exploration and not just one path to go on. Still not a game I'd really replay either.

BG2 was of course the best one by far.

 

[MMXI]

What? Did we play the same game?

Icewind Dale, as I recall, has you fighting yuan-ti, ice trolls, ghosts and spirits, giant yetis, fire giants, wyverns, mind flayers, giant mushrooms, iron golems, lizardmen, etc. as a matter of course. This was all ostensibly in a "low level" D&D campaign. Meanwhile Baldur's Gate was stuffed full of gibberlings, xvarts, hobgoblins and skeletons - probably 90% or more of the combat was against those enemies alone.

Yes, they were, if you swept through a select few zones repeatedly so that they respawned (such as High Hedge for skeletons). There was a couple of zones full of powerful spiders. There was a zone full of ankhegs. There was another with two basilisks. Many of the southern zones, especially in the south east, had plenty of party versus party battles that were the best in the game. Many zones around the bandit camp featured bandits heavily. The dungeon below Candlekeep featured doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers. The coast had lots of sirines etc.

But even so, it's still "only" about on par with the Icewind Dale series, and it still has less variety and more filler overall.

No, no, it was far better. Do you even remember Icewind Dale? It involved going to dungeons and fighting the same battles again and again. Remember that dungeon full of verbeegs? How about that one full of lizard men? Compared to Firkraag's dungeon, the de'Arnise Keep, Spellhold and even the Umar Hills dungeon with the shadow dragon is pales in comparison, and that's forgetting Watcher's Keep which demolishes all of Icewind Dale in terms of encounter variety. And that's completely forgetting the second Icewind Dale that has a whole chapter on killing orcs.

 

[Infinitron]

Great thread. It should be copy pasted to the Obsidian forums or linked to Josh Sawyer or something. It's a great vignette of what type of experiences we care about on this forum. The disagreements somehow don't harm that but enhance it.

 

[sea]

Yes, they were, if you swept through a select few zones repeatedly so that they respawned (such as High Hedge for skeletons). There was a couple of zones full of powerful spiders. There was a zone full of ankhegs. There was another with two basilisks. Many of the southern zones, especially in the south east, had plenty of party versus party battles that were the best in the game. Many zones around the bandit camp featured bandits heavily. The dungeon below Candlekeep featured doppelgangers and greater doppelgangers. The coast had lots of sirines etc.

Oh, so we've also got bandits, and spiders. Yay? I admit that the basilisks and ankhegs were cool, but honestly those were probably the most interesting enemies in the game other than some of the mages, the wyverns, etc. I don't really remember many party vs. party fights in the south, either, if anything they mostly took place in the city itself.

No, no, it was far better. Do you even remember Icewind Dale? It involved going to dungeons and fighting the same battles again and again. Remember that dungeon full of verbeegs? How about that one full of lizard men? Compared to Firkraag's dungeon, the de'Arnise Keep, Spellhold and even the Umar Hills dungeon with the shadow dragon is pales in comparison, and that's forgetting Watcher's Keep which demolishes all of Icewind Dale in terms of encounter variety. And that's completely forgetting the second Icewind Dale that has a whole chapter on killing orcs.

It's not just the raw aesthetics that matter, it's stuff like how the environment was used to make fights interesting, i.e. choke points used to stem waves of enemies, monsters sneaking behind your party to attack your flank, multiple levels of elevation, that sort of thing. In Baldur's Gate, the most variety in environments you get is wide open world vs. annoyingly small maze, and there are only a few places where enemies are actually selected to take advantage of the terrain.

Again, Baldur's Gate 2 is an exception and admittedly I am less experienced with it, but what I remember of it wasn't, on average, any better than the Icewind Dale games. And it's true that Icewind Dale 2 did have way too long a section spent fighting orcs, but even they were kind of interesting thanks to different types (shamans, berserkers, etc.), and for what it's worth it did improve a lot after that point.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I just finished building a new BWP for BG. Now I want to play IWD again.

Dammit.

edit: And for those hating on BG it is much more fun with SCS installed.

 

[Untermensch]

My 2 cents:

Baldur's gate 1's mayor flaw was having many places like forests or hills that didn't contained anything interesting to do.
The story was in better the first one because it was, for most of the time, low key, unlike BG2's EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT(tm).
Icewind Dale 1 and 2's stories were also low key which i like. The enemy variety was also there, plus I could design my own party, a big plus.

So to me, both Icewind dales are better than BG2, while IWD1 is the overall winner, though of all the Infinity engine game IWD2, imo, had the best combat.
I think that D&D 3E is a bit better than AD&D when it comes to RTwP.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

So what's the best mod combination oriented at maximum combat difficulty and more interesting combat for a complete BG playthough (BG1,2,addons and expansions)? SCS and Ascension, or is there anything else?

 

[Turjan]

I prefer Baldur's Gate as a single player and Icewind Dale in multiplayer. All in all, I think that the BG series has a better story, but that and the presence of a main character gets in the way of a multiplayer game. The more or less non-existent and completely forgettable story of Icewind Dale doesn't get in the way of a multiplayer romp, but makes it difficult for me to keep me interested enough to finish the game. It took me several attempts to finish IWD once, but I have played BG1 and BG2 several times. I never cared much for ToB with its (in a pretty literal sense) over-the-top D&D combat, though.

 

[MMXI]

Oh, so we've also got bandits, and spiders. Yay?

Yes, spiders. Sword spiders and phase spiders were pretty damn cool, and if you remember those zones well enough you'll recollect the web traps dotted around the trees, making it almost suicidal to walk around without detecting traps or wearing rings of freedom.

I admit that the basilisks and ankhegs were cool, but honestly those were probably the most interesting enemies in the game other than some of the mages, the wyverns, etc. I don't really remember many party vs. party fights in the south, either, if anything they mostly took place in the city itself.

You don't remember party versus party fights outside of the city? How about that one at the top of the zone you appear in after exiting the Nashkel mines? How about the two fights in the zone south of Nashkel? South of Gullykin there's a battle against a varied group of assassins. There's a battle to the east of the lake in the Drizzt zone. Another one bang in the centre of the basilisk zone. There's a nice battle with a group of mages in the spider zone to the east. Even the zone south of High Hedge with Bassilus features a nice fight where you tend to pick up your first short sword +2.

It's not just the raw aesthetics that matter, it's stuff like how the environment was used to make fights interesting, i.e. choke points used to stem waves of enemies, monsters sneaking behind your party to attack your flank, multiple levels of elevation, that sort of thing. In Baldur's Gate, the most variety in environments you get is wide open world vs. annoyingly small maze, and there are only a few places where enemies are actually selected to take advantage of the terrain.

Again, Baldur's Gate 2 is an exception and admittedly I am less experienced with it, but what I remember of it wasn't, on average, any better than the Icewind Dale games. And it's true that Icewind Dale 2 did have way too long a section spent fighting orcs, but even they were kind of interesting thanks to different types (shamans, berserkers, etc.), and for what it's worth it did improve a lot after that point.

It was miles better. Miles. I'm mentally comparing a place like Dragon's Eye with Firkraag's lair and it's just not up to par. But that's just dungeons. Some of the best fights in Baldur's Gate II were dotted around the city, like Kangaxx, the two separate lich battles, the Twisted Rune battle, the party fight on the second floor of the inn in the promenade, and that other party fight in the sewers. I even remember a party fight on the top of the Copper Coronet and I don't even know what quest triggers it. It's like night and day.

 

[Wyrmlord III]

sea

Also, it's astounding how much better Icewind Dale's writing is. I never really noticed this when playing years ago, but going back to Baldur's Gate and the sequel, the writing is just... bad. In the first game, it's quaint, but the cheesy Ren faire lines get annoying fast, and smack of bad fan fiction. In Baldur's Gate 2, everything goes melodramatic - it's all about death, shadow, mind rape, etc. not because it really helps the story in any way, but just because "evil and darkness is cool." Baldur's Gate 2 was the birth of the "BioWare are about story and characters" stuff that has defined their games since... but aside from generally getting a bit worse over the years, just because they were one of the only developers making larger, complicated stories at the time doesn't mean that we should ignore the fact that most of it was also rather shit. I mean, Planescape was in development during the original Baldur's Gate, and came out before Baldur's Gate 2... those are some high standards to meet.

Yeah, exactly.

Here are two dialogue encounters from early in these two series. Choosing the most random and generic ones I can find.

Minsc: Minsc will be free. These bonds will not hold my wrath. Butts will be liberally kicked in good measure!
Everard: We are...were...warriors. Wounded in battle, our injuries keep us away from the front lines. Still we are fit to guard holy sites.

"Butts will be liberally kicked in good measure"? That is such a strange attempt at humour, it just leaves you feeling awkward. As for what Everard says, it is not particularly remarkable, but it is straightforward and unpretentious, and fitting for Everard, the warrior priest.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Fuck you Minsc was awesome.

 

[Menckenstein]

Fuck you Minsc was awesome.

And Family Guy is da funniest show on televisionz!!!

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I think when it comes to first playthrough, the best one is BG2. Now for replay value, Icewind Dale all the way. If only because creating your whole party instead of picking the "less bad" among a rather poor selection of joinable NPCs. Icewind Dale 2, with its butchering of 3.5 rules, heavily scripted fights and enemies popping out of nowhere, like the missing link between IE games and NWN, is the worst of the lot.

 

[ghostdog]

Great thread. It should be copy pasted to the Obsidian forums or linked to Josh Sawyer or something. It's a great vignette of what type of experiences we care about on this forum. The disagreements somehow don't harm that but enhance it.

Yeah, let's make a poll for best RPGs evar of the Codex and BG2 will still be in the top 5-6 (as in the last three polls) and IWD will still be nowhere near. The fact some posters are really vocal about certain things they hate/love, doesn't reflect the codex.

Oh, and minsc is great, fuck the haterz.

 

[Turjan]

Here are two dialogue encounters from early in these two series. Choosing the most random and generic ones I can find.

Minsc: Minsc will be free. These bonds will not hold my wrath. Butts will be liberally kicked in good measure!
Everard: We are...were...warriors. Wounded in battle, our injuries keep us away from the front lines. Still we are fit to guard holy sites.

This comparison is completely insincere. Choosing the dialog of a BG character that is depicted as moronic (and the game makes this pretty clear) but with a big heart, you are surprised that the dialog sounds moronic? Try again. Why don't you choose Edwin? He's the one I found really funny.