How not to suck at combat

[Ninjerk]

My character might have been unoptimized because my highest stat was critical strike, I could have much higher dodge and crossbow by then, mistakes were made, several of them.


Oh you mean the reputations, when you start with a drifter you are pretty much free to choose whatever path and can build up reputations. Drifter is for people who are not part of the system. While Merchants and Assassins are pretty much the lizardmen if you follow their quests through.

OK, but WHY start with a drifter rather than a merchant or loremaster if, like the drifter, you can assign your attributes and skills any way you want AND you get a reputation advantage. To my knowledge there is literally NOTHING obligating any class to do their faction quests.

 

[FreeKaner]

OK, but WHY start with a drifter rather than a merchant or loremaster if, like the drifter, you can assign your attributes and skills any way you want AND you get a reputation advantage. To my knowledge there is literally NOTHING obligating any class to do their faction quests.

Roleplay?

Also if you are part of a guild you can end up with a lot of negatives if you betray it, while drifter doesn't need to betray their guild to switch sides like other classes do, starting as an assassin and going with imperial guard for example will ruin your reputation.

 

[Ninjerk]

I could see that if it was the only way, but Gaelius will dissolve your obligation to the Boatmen if you will help him shut down Antidas and afaik there isn't really a negative mechanically speaking.

 

[Dyskolos]

To keep it spoiler free - there is one important quest point late in the game (Ganezzar) where the Grifter's origin comes back as providing an alternative solution and added gameworld insight. I'm not sure if it's altogether inaccessible to other characters but the specific dialogue I got seemed like it had to be unique

Spoiler

You can recognize Meru's prophet as the same fellow grifter who first talks to you in the Teron inn opening and get a potion to help with the divine conversation trial you'd normally need Darius' helmet or mind shielf to pass. You may have to be the chosen one to even get to the prophet.

 

[Ninjerk]

ROFL

 

[Goral]

To keep it spoiler free - there is one important quest point late in the game (Ganezzar) where the Grifter's origin comes back as providing an alternative solution and added gameworld insight. I'm not sure if it's altogether inaccessible to other characters but the specific dialogue I got seemed like it had to be unique

Spoiler

You can recognize Meru's prophet as the same fellow grifter who first talks to you in the Teron inn opening and get a potion to help with the divine conversation trial you'd normally need Darius' helmet or mind shielf to pass. You may have to be the chosen one to even get to the prophet.

High streetwise and impersonate are required for that. I remember having conversation like this when I was a Loremaster.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

High streetwise and impersonate are required for that. I remember having conversation like this when I was a Loremaster.

They aren't required if you're a grifter, though. Of course you probably already have those skills if you are...

 

[valcik]

Bow + Alchemy is a very good build.

Alchemy is quite handy indeed, not only with bow. Poisoned spear saved my arse many times, because you can use all your action points for retreating as far from your opponents as it gets while hoping for successful counter-attack granted by decent spear skill. When the poison effect wears off, it's much easier to defeat all the badly wounded enemies. This might be a little tedious tactics, completely uneffective in a small rooms with no place for retreating though.

 

[FreeKaner]

Alchemy is quite handy indeed, not only with bow. Poisoned spear saved my arse many times, because you can use all your action points for retreating as far from your opponents as it gets while hoping for successful counter-attack granted by decent spear skill. When the poison effect wears off, it's much easier to defeat all the badly wounded enemies. This might be a little tedious tactics, completely uneffective in a small rooms with no place for retreating though.

Spear plays a lot like bow/xbox, I find spear very fun as well, especially its special ability combined with dodge, you can actually get a lot of hits in enemy's turn

Such an underrepresented weapon in video games, which is very odd since it has been the most common weapon in history.

 

[Ninjerk]

Alchemy is quite handy indeed, not only with bow. Poisoned spear saved my arse many times, because you can use all your action points for retreating as far from your opponents as it gets while hoping for successful counter-attack granted by decent spear skill. When the poison effect wears off, it's much easier to defeat all the badly wounded enemies. This might be a little tedious tactics, completely uneffective in a small rooms with no place for retreating though.

With high dodge it's quite fun. I tried to make a high dodge, spear (with minimum investment), and spend the rest of my SP on civil stuff but it's hard to pull off if you don't know the content well. You're basically trying to get poison running on as many targets as you can at once while running away and feinting. What I found most limiting in the short time I used it was: nets, high dodge enemies, and wasting poison charges.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Success, killed everyone in Teron (Bandits, Mining Outpost) with just 6/6 and 4 Alchemy (2 Alchemy vs. Bandits).
Everything i wrote in OP does work and the game indeed seems fair enough not to throw high DR/high dodge enemies at you.

A net + aimed attacks solve low THC problems and it's very nice, that penalties stack. Loot is very rewarding from major Teron battles and comes in all kinds of improved states - THC bonus, DR bonus. It's a major part of smooth combat build progress. Improved poison from 4 Alchemy is also a major factor.

But i am wondering, sometimes THC is like 50% but i still go through Block/DR with special attacks. Someone posted somewhere that due to high STR i cat still do damage, even if the enemy blocks. Is combat documented more precisely somewhere?

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Block Sucess = You block the attack - shield then acts as another layer of armor. Sometimes the damage you deal goes above the DR of the shield, then its the armor's job. This is why against Head/Artery attacks rock against blockers, the damage is so big that even shield + helmet can't soak it all. Also blocked attacks can dent your shield, keep that in mind.

Nice info, that was what i was missing.

Can i dodge ranged attacks? How exactly shields "+X vs Ranged" works? Does it improve the Block chance or something?

 

[Eyestabber]

I won the Power armor fight with my jack-of-all-trades Praetor (6-8(9 after machine)-4-8-7-7). One word, just ONE word: bombs.

Also:

Dodge Critical Sucess = You dodge AND counter-strike.
Dodge Sucess = You dodge the attack
Dodge fail = you get hit (hope your armor is good)
Block Critical Sucess = Blow glances off your shield harmlessely, doesn't even dent or deal any damage.
Block Sucess = You block the attack - shield then acts as another layer of armor. Sometimes the damage you deal goes above the DR of the shield, then its the armor's job. This is why against Head/Artery attacks rock against blockers, the damage is so big that even shield + helmet can't soak it all. Also blocked attacks can dent your shield, keep that in mind.
Block Fail = You do not block the attack (your armor is your only protection here).
Block is great against ranged attackers, fuck the rain of arrows man.

Notice how the Block "critical sucess" is the dodger's regular success. Block is terribru.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because if a Dodger gets hit, there isn't much DR there to soften the blow. If a blocker gets hit, he has enough DR to shrug it off.

 

[Shadenuat]

Because if a Dodger gets hit, there isn't much DR there to soften the blow. If a blocker gets hit, he has enough DR to shrug it off.

Not sure what DR are you talking about here. Dodgers don't usually run naked. Even 12AP builds can get decent DR quickly, 7-9 from armors like studded ordu armor, blue steel armor and then power armor.

As for now, Dodge prevents 100% of damage in 2 out of 3 rolls, while Block only in 1 out of 3 (even heaviest shields can be penetrated and broken with some weapons, especially armor piercing arrows, as your shield becomes weaker in prolongued fight... unless you carry a few spares).
To make Block what it should be (persistent damage mitigation) it should also block part of the damage on 3d roll, adding 1/2 or 1/3 of shield's DR to your defences. Or make +ranged defense depend on Block skills. Or make DR added on 3d roll depend on skill/difference in rolls. Or everything together in small measures.

I won't say that "block is terribru" but it does seem to be mechanically inferior, at least +ranged defense from heavy shields should depend on Block skill to make it more unique and not depend wholly on item equipped.

 

[Eyestabber]

Because if a Dodger gets hit, there isn't much DR there to soften the blow. If a blocker gets hit, he has enough DR to shrug it off.

ye. I was going to write another wall of text, but Shadenuat covered it. The idea that blockers are more resilient than dodgers WHEN they get hit assumes the blocker wears heavier armor than the dodger, despite the fact that armor penalty treats them equally. So the blocker has NO extra incentive to wear heavier armor. When you invest in block you're simply paying more for less.

BTW, anyone here thinks it's a fucking coincidence that IIRC EVERY single arena challenger is a dodger, not a blocker?

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, I never wear heaviest armor even when playing with Block. The first reason being it cuts on your chance of NOT getting hit (which is better than to get hit and then go repair your armor again, I remember after one fight against a guy or two with hammers my shield got from 9 dr to almost nothing... and I don't want to get crits even when wearing heavy armor/shield); and second because I like high AP builds.

Of course it doesn't mean that some sort of low AP, ultra heavy armor hammer/axe build won't work, but it would be a build without a lot of options and interesting stuff to do during combat. Probably whirlwind with hammer or something and that's all you do. I don't even want to try that sort of gameplay.

...I am biased toward glass cannon characters in all games tho, always has been.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Yeah, I never wear heaviest armor even when playing with Block. The first reason being it cuts on your chance of NOT getting hit (which is better than to get hit and then go repair your armor again, I remember after one fight against a guy or two with hammers my shield got from 9 dr to almost nothing... and I don't want to get crits even when wearing heavy armor/shield); and second because I like high AP builds.

Of course it doesn't mean that some sort of low AP, ultra heavy armor hammer/axe build won't work, but it would be a build without a lot of options and interesting stuff to do during combat. Probably whirlwind with hammer or something and that's all you do. I don't even want to try that sort of gameplay.

...I am biased toward glass cannon characters in all games tho, always has been.

Funny, I do pretty much the exact opposite. Most of my characters (dodgers and blockers) wear the heaviest armor possible for their AP. DR is actually really good, you just need to prioritize targets correctly so you don't lose most of it.

 

[Eyestabber]

The block mechanic isn't inherently flawed, it just needs some tweaking. Maybe armor penalty should only apply to dodgers, maybe part of the shield dr should still apply when you get hit, maybe shield thc penalties need to be removed...something! Blockers need something for their trouble. Right now block is just...subpar.

 

[Shadenuat]

Most of my characters (dodgers and blockers) wear the heaviest armor possible for their AP.

Unless you play very low AP builds it still means your armors are probably not heavier than best of Light Metal/Lightier Heavy Metal (not praetorian/imperial armor) with penalty to DEF ~20 or lower with Crafting.

And well, it proves that dodgers also benefit from DR well, and Blockers don't have that big of an advantage over 'em.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Unless you play very low AP builds it still means your armors are probably not heavier than best of Light Metal/Lightier Heavy Metal (not praetorian/imperial armor) with penalty to DEF ~20 or lower with Crafting.

Nah, thanks to crafting, Praetorian/Lamellar armor works fine for a 10 AP character. Imperial armor kinda sucks though - it's finally viable with crafting 10, but requires too much material to be worth making at that point.

 

[Shadenuat]

I like PWA more than any crafted armor.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Have you tried some of the insane endgame armors you can make with crafting 10? A meteor lorica segmentata for a 10 dex character is crazy good. Though obviously PWA is too thanks to those stat boosts.

 

[Shadenuat]

Sure, since bowmen/2-handers don't have other options. The stat boost cheese from PWA is superior to a few more points of DR. And let's not forget it's Hardness/low def penalties.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Hardness and def penalties aren't much different compared to a meteor armor. The DR difference is actually pretty large, plus the crafted armor has vastly superior vs crit. Plus, as you said, the ability to use 2 handed weapons is a pretty big deal. But even for 1 handers, I don't think PWA is far and away better. Maybe if you fully unlock it, but that requires a lore investment.