How can *YOU* help devise a specific knowledge based system?

[DraQ]

"Specific knowledge" referring to knowledge regarding individual techniques, individual creatures and anything else. System doesn't have to be stand-alone, It can supplement some other, for example, use-based system. The premise is that certain bits of knowledge doesn't fit into linear skill progression - neither as gradual improvements, nor as fixed succession of perks. Ideally, system should allow characters to come up with new knowledge on their own - if they're good enough.

Now, people of Codex, put your hivemind to a better use than discussing how liberal atheistic muslim jewish niggers rape our once glorious civilisation through their poisonous influences such as feminism, multikult, Bioware or Bethesda!

Discuss!!
:dancingandhairagif:

 

[zenbitz]

I don't understand the in-game task this would be trying to enable.

Do you mean that if you had the "Specific Knowledge": Kobold Culture, then when encountering Kobold artefacts or places, or detrius, or whatever, you would get a "roll" to "learn some (otherwise) hidden information" in the game?

 

[DraQ]

Specific-knowledge based system would consist of a collection of large number of separate and largely independent 'perks'. Earning those perks would be a matter of finding proper in-game trainers or sources. Some would deal with specific type of a monster, allowing character to deal with it (assuming he has skills allowing him to exploit monster's weaknesses), other with a specific combat technique, etc.

Such system would probably work better supplementing a more conventional skill system, than as stand-alone, but might be an interesting thing.

Task? Spicing up skill progression, codifying all those times where you gain some special ability or knowledge via script as a part of gameplay mechanics, make the game rely more on specific in-character knowledge, rather than only on abstract skills.

 

[zenbitz]

Task? Spicing up skill progression, codifying all those times where you gain some special ability or knowledge via script as a part of gameplay mechanics, make the game rely more on specific in-character knowledge, rather than only on abstract skills.

That's the META game task, or game DESIGN task. I was asking for specific examples - which you gave a few of.

There is no functional difference between what (I think) you are trying to do and basically a very, very large number of very specific skills. They still have to be pre-defined. Both of your examples were combat related.

But for example, you could have a special skill called "Stone Kold Kobold Killer" which gives you a bonus to all attacks and defenses when fighting kobolds. You could get level 1 after you kill 100 kobolds, level 2 after 500, etc. At level 3, Kobolds flee from you on sight.

Special combat techniques don't make much sense in an abstracted RPG like combat. You could go see the monk on the mountain and have him teach you "One Inch Heart Punch" technique... but what would that be other than bonus to damage/knock out/critical/kill whatever fighting unarmed?

I think I am missing something.

 

[DraQ]

There is no functional difference between what (I think) you are trying to do and basically a very, very large number of very specific skills.

With very shallow progress, yes.

They still have to be pre-defined.

Can't deny this.

Special combat techniques don't make much sense in an abstracted RPG like combat.

Which might be the reason why cRPGs either die out or transform into something completely vile.
I'd love to see a cRPG that doesn't ditch player/character separation and skill-reliance, but does make use of all the 'gigahurtz' lurking within modern machines by using heavily deabstracted, simulationistic combat system. With modern machine at hand, the number of rolls and calculations a group of nerds can perform before getting bored is no longer a limiting factor to the gameplay mechanics.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

So what's the idea here? You can use a pistol, and you skill with it increases up to a point. After that point, you either need to find a trainer or perhaps an item, like a gun magazine in fallout that will bump you past the point, and then when you use your pistol your skill increases until reach the next point. Once you get to the high areas of a skill, you probably need to complete a quest related action to get your skill to elite level or whatever, and doing that might cut off your ability to reach similar points with other skills.

Am I reading this right?

 

[Fezzik]

So you're asking how we would manage special abilities and the like and what sort of a system we would implement them in?

For the most part, knowledge-based abilities that the character picks up should probably be "active." That is, something that he chooses to use. If the abilities were passive instead, then instead of making the game more interesting and fun to play it might just make it easier. There are special cases where this might be different. For instance, if the game were taking place in some city with districts occupied by people from different places, you might train to get a language ability. That might allow the character to infilitrate some group of foreign language speakers and since the ability would essentially just automatically change dialogue, it wouldn't be much like choosing "whirlwind attack" in combat.

I'm playing Prelude to Darkness right now, so I might as well mention how that game handles this sort of stuff. It's broken down into two ways of gaining abilities: (1)Completing special quests for spells and (2)Raising skills to appropriate levels for special combat abilities. There are merits to both ways.

I would say, however, that there is a danger that if any given knowledge-based ability is used throughout the game and you try to make a whole system of knowledge-based abilities, then there could be some bloat to the game and an emphasis on "find all the trainers to collect all of the abilities." And I don't think that would be very fun, kind of like hopping and running everywhere in Morrowind.

One way you could avoid that sort of thing if you wanted to implement a wide variety of knowledge-based abilities that could be used throughout the game would be to make learning the abilities time-dependent or pseudo-time dependent (e.g. once you've learned so many abilities in a given location, the game allows no more abilities to be learned of that type in that location).

And one way that you could allow the player to learn new abilities on their own would be to invest skill points in an ability instead of a skill. That could result in stupidity, however, with characters who have uber-sword abilities, but no actual sword skill.

Another way you could implement this stuff is to have a "memory" attribute. The higher the character's memory attribute, the more special abilities they can acquire (like the number of spells a wizard can learn per level in DnD). So you could have a ranger who has studiously learned many different battle and tracking techniques but whose strength or dexterity suffers for it.

 

[zenbitz]

I'd love to see a cRPG that doesn't ditch player/character separation and skill-reliance, but does make use of all the 'gigahurtz' lurking within modern machines by using heavily deabstracted, simulationistic combat system. With modern machine at hand, the number of rolls and calculations a group of nerds can perform before getting bored is no longer a limiting factor to the gameplay mechanics.

But hiding a bunch of rolls and tables and flow charts doesn't make the game more interesting or (dare I say it) realistic. What you want for "special combat manuvers" is not to hide a bunch of made-of details in CPU usage (although there is room for that as well), but rather an interesting tactical game based on choices (rather than twitches) the player makes in combat.

Say, instead of "swing sword at location X" and "thrust sword at location Y" I had a whole laundry list of maneuvers - feints, bluffs, double strikes, ripostes, surprise moves - and so did the bad guy. Then you'd have a matrix of results based on my manuver choice and his (and our relative and releveant skills, stats, etc).

If you've ever played Lost Worlds or Ace of Aces ("book games"), you will know what I mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Worlds_(gamebook)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_Aces_(picture_book_game)

A computer could obviously do a better job than 40 page booklets.

 

[Oarfish]

I'm all for the simulationist approach, but doesn't that take things out of the realm of character knowledge - Bob the Boss has a weak left leg from a nasty fall. I guess no more so than a dialogue tree, and it would be preferable to aiming for the eyes for the last 60% of a game.

 

[zenbitz]

well - you could incorporate "weak left leg" knowledge in the "matrix" approach by giving the player "desciriptions" or "bonus markers" next to each option/target.

Giving lots and lots of combat manuver options is going to make for VERY long combats.