Grand Strategy Hearts of Iron

[EmoBunny]

So I have some experience with the Hearts of Iron series. I tried the first one out when it first came out and had a bit of fun dicking around, but I found it mostly unsatisfying.
I then ignored most Paradox games (except CK with DVIP which I sunk hours into). When HoI 3 came out, however, I decided to give it a whirl. I had a bit of fun, but it seemed extremely lacking back then. Since then I have heard very good things about HoI 2 in comparison to three.

So my question to the Codex is: should I get Hearts of Iron 2 (and if so, which version) or get the DLC for HoI 3?

 

[Sranchammer]

HoI with Black Ice is pretty good. I think it's done enough to surpass HoI2 now

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Get the DLC, Hearts of Iron 3 is hands down better than HoI2 in every fashion except the number of total conversion mods.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

HoI3 is at a technical level probably the best HOI game, and even best Paradox game, ever made. It may be lacking a bit in the "fun factor" that CK or EU have, but it's a really excellent game.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Only problem with HoI3 is how railroaded different nations are. Considering the time-frame and historical limits, that shouldn't really bother you, but coming from EU and CK can feel limiting to some people. The combat and strategy aspect is really where it shines for a grand strategy game, though obviously not as good as something like Operational Art of War or any number of games that you find distributed through Matrix Games. It's more that the global strategy/production/research side makes the end result of combat feel really good(Oh look my shiny new Battleships I just spent three years researching/building have wrestled control of the seas, etc.). Black Ice is decent as a mod too, but the game is way more fun in multiplayer if you can ever get a long running game going. Then the AI won't annoy you and decent strategies can be formed and even some Diplomacy style treachery/subterfuge.

 

[ohWOW]

They fucked up the map, provinces and technology, that's enough to pick HoI2 instead.

 

[Malakal]

I find it hard to believe considering how bad map and tech was in HoI2. Not having played a lot of HoI3 I'll have to restrain myself here but didnt they add lots of provinces and split techs into their components adding practical and theoretical research? Sounds like improvements to me.

 

[ohWOW]

In HoI2 Warsaw and Kiev were lying by the proper lakes at least.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I'm one of the few people here who prefers HoI II all the way. It simply has the best tedious shit:fun ratio of all the Paradox games that I've tried (didn't play Crusader kings). Just an explanation - I mean HoI II + DD + Arm + patch, all the official conversions introduce quite a lot retarded design decisions that spin the ratio I'm talking about way out of sweet balance.

 

[Malakal]

In HoI2 Warsaw and Kiev were lying by the proper lakes at least.

Geography in Paradox games apparently is a balancing factor, at least thats how they explained the placement of Stalingrad.

 

[Whisky]

I liked HoI3, but after I started playing the Kaiserreich mod for Darkest Hour/HoI2, I haven't been able to go back to it.

HoI2 vs HoI3 is probably the biggest division in the Paradox fanbase. You'll get a wide variety of responses.

 

[mondblut]

I miss the specialized, personalized tech teams of HoI2. HoI3 thoroughly dumbed it down to banal shit boring "you produce 9 research points, how will you spend them".

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Paging GarfunkeL there is a heathen invasion in this topic.

I miss the specialized, personalized tech teams of HoI2. HoI3 thoroughly dumbed it down to banal shit boring "you produce 9 research points, how will you spend them".

The tech teams were nothing but flavour, and were possibly the most hamfisted way of enforcing a specific playstyle (or permanent uselessness) for countries. At the very least HoI3 got it right by separating IC and research.

I find it hard to believe considering how bad map and tech was in HoI2. Not having played a lot of HoI3 I'll have to restrain myself here but didnt they add lots of provinces and split techs into their components adding practical and theoretical research? Sounds like improvements to me.

Yes, and as mentioned above, most important IC and research were separated. Tech itself is now divided into a category for each purpose (generally four standard categories per unit, ships and planes have the most peripheral tech effects; non-unit techs are split by function), with expertise being developed by research for Theoretical, and by building/combat for Practical/Experience types. The only thing the system doesn't have that HoI2 did have is blueprints (these are replaced by the ability to lend an ally your Theoretical knowlege, but it's hardly useful; production licenses cover building foreign equipment) and a bit of character flavour (that's literally the only good thing for the old tech teams).

Only problem with HoI3 is how railroaded different nations are. Considering the time-frame and historical limits, that shouldn't really bother you, but coming from EU and CK can feel limiting to some people. The combat and strategy aspect is really where it shines for a grand strategy game, though obviously not as good as something like Operational Art of War or any number of games that you find distributed through Matrix Games. It's more that the global strategy/production/research side makes the end result of combat feel really good(Oh look my shiny new Battleships I just spent three years researching/building have wrestled control of the seas, etc.). Black Ice is decent as a mod too, but the game is way more fun in multiplayer if you can ever get a long running game going. Then the AI won't annoy you and decent strategies can be formed and even some Diplomacy style treachery/subterfuge.

The main problem there is really just that they nerfed the ability to lower your Neutrality, and that they keep fucking around with the Leadership values for minors. Just bumping the base value to 6 or 8 makes minors work fine.

 

[mondblut]

I miss the specialized, personalized tech teams of HoI2. HoI3 thoroughly dumbed it down to banal shit boring "you produce 9 research points, how will you spend them".

The tech teams were nothing but flavour,

LOLWUT? How is pondering whether to assign the research of your brand new tanks to Krupp (who are good at armor and gun research, but will get stuck with the engine) or to Porsche (who is great with engines but meh with everything else, and besides, he might be better assigned to design new trucks at the moment instead) "nothing but flavour"? How is picking a conquest target for their research teams "nothing but flavour"? Next you'll say classes in RPG are "nothing but flavour".

and were possibly the most hamfisted way of enforcing a specific playstyle

So "nothing but flavour" or "enforcing a specific playstyle"? These are pretty much the opposites.

(or permanent uselessness) for countries.

Ah, a case of "bawww, WW2 is boring as Uruguay" detected. Well duh, boring it is, history ain't fair, and it is written by the select few big guys.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And then a very important part for the development of WW2 was when one of those few select big guys got utterly humiliated by one of the tiny guys. HoI3 handles this aspect much better than HoI2, as it does warfare in general thanks to obvious things like the stricter Width system and larger number of provinces forcing you to actually allocate your forces properly when you run Barbarossa or invade China.

Fact is, Tech Teams added absolutely nothing to the gameplay. The only benefit was the flavour of having nice photographs, the gameplay effect was detrimental. The big thing for HoI3 system was that it leaves more strategic decisions in the hands of the player. In HoI2, the game practically spits it out for you what your optimal course is, and rarely tolerates deviation. In HoI3, you've got a balancing act even as Germany until later game. You also possess the ability to over-specialize your units with tech selection, which can have application for things like super-distance planes. Similarly, techs are generally scaled in a much better manner, and brigades themselves are organized in a much more balanced and nuanced manner under the new system.


(And it bears mention that it's never much of a dilemma to pick a Tech Team, as it's easy to tell with a cursory glance who's the fastest for the job)

 

[mondblut]

Fact is, Tech Teams added absolutely nothing to the gameplay. The only benefit was the flavour of having nice photographs, the gameplay effect was detrimental.

Bullshit. With "points", your only consideration when picking a tech to research is the extent to which it is useful vs research cost. A banal shit boring one dimensional system every civilization wannabe has.

With research teams, each of your "points" was specialized, better suiting some techs and entirely unsuitable for others. It gave an entire second dimension to base your research priorities upon. If that is "detrimental" for gameplay, I don't know what isn't.

Sure, if you want GBR employing partisans and human wave, soviets with rockets and Germany with top of the crop aircraft carriers (and to lead Comintern as Panama), HoI2 is probably too "railroaded" for you. But I, for one, prefer my Third Reich to resemble its historical prototype in more ways than a flag texture (which is wrong to begin with). And historically, there were reasons why Germany was good at tanks and subs and CAS but sucked at carriers or strategic aircraft, and these reasons were set in place long before 1.1.1936, some hailing all the way back to post-Napoleonic thought.

 

[Malakal]

Tech teams were just adding extra advantage for advantaged nations and disadvantage for already weak ones. Why, with same spending and industrial power, should German industry team be better than US? Was German tank tech actually the best (hint: Russians beat them all the way i this regard)?

Your point about picking specific teams for specific tasks is moot because a. there arent that many important techs that you even have to prioritize as 5 slot nation and b. with some basic calculations you instantly know what team is best for what.

From my point of view how do you even defend techs like 1939 infantry? Really, 1939 infantry as a tech unlocking infantry model called 1939 infantry? Oh the possibilities! Dont be fucking ridiculous those techs were shit and you know it. How about actually having good field artillery at expense of something else like you can have in HoI3 and not all units being EXACTLY THE SAME at the same tech level because you HAVE TO use premade units. Add a brigade (thats more or less not IC efficient) whoop de woo.

 

[mondblut]

Tech teams were just adding extra advantage for advantaged nations and disadvantage for already weak ones.

No. Tech teams are one of the reasons the advantaged nations are advantaged to begin with. Like, from before 1936.

And I think a global superpower having advantage over a thirdworldian shithole is perfectly reasonable setup.

Why, with same spending and industrial power, should German industry team be better than US?

For the same reason the US had to ship Werner von Braun overseas after the war instead of picking a random american to do the job.

Research is spearheaded by individuals, and certain individuals just happened to be born and educated in Germany, not Panama. Long before 1.1.1936, too. I, for one, am glad HoI2 is aware of this fact. Perhaps it could benefit from an espionage task to bribe and spirit away a research team from one country to another, but even without it, it is still much better than some generic pool of research points that allow Afghanistan to research tanks on par with Germany as long as they have 1 full RP.

From my point of view how do you even defend techs like 1939 infantry? Really, 1939 infantry as a tech unlocking infantry model called 1939 infantry?

And HoI3 didn't have "model 1939 infantry"? That's news to me.

...ah, right, I stand corrected, HoI3 had levels. Instead of "model 1939 infantry" it has "level 4 infantry". That changes everything!!!

How about actually having good field artillery at expense of something else like you can have in HoI3

You can't have good artillery at expense of something else with tech teams?

you HAVE TO use premade units. Add a brigade (thats more or less not IC efficient) whoop de woo.

The topic is tech teams, not division composition changes, of which I said not a word.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

The only thing I dislike about HOI3 (apart from ww2 on railz) is how tedious it is building supply highways. Good lord, makes playing the USSR with all those 30 infra provinces and fucked OOB an organisational nightmare.

 

[Malakal]

Ye, for me its quite obvious that HoI3 is the superior game as far as mechanics are concerned here but personally I enjoy HoI2 more. HoI3 is just too micro intense for me.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

So you've never played HoI3 when you don't even know the simple fact that in HoI3 units are not treated as entities with levels of any sort, but with each piece of equipment being handled separately? Units don't get handled in tiers, their equipment is handled in tiers, and with that equipment you have a LOT more variables at play than just "Infantry 1939".

There is also nothing realistic about lettin tech be purely determined by presets. Von Braun could not have built rockets if the Nazi regime had decided that they won't fund any such work. Lives of major scientific figures are also much more complex than just being born to do the work they did. Von Braun wasn't born with the innate knowledge of making rockets. Interest and support of the Wehr was required for Von Braun to realize his designs. Ultimately the system HoI3 has, which places emphasis on modeling effort and investment of resources by a nation in various fields of research, models these things far better. And of course, in HoI3 it's far harder for Afghanistan to keep up with German tank technology due to the much larger number of technologies involved in tank design, and the lack of IC to actually build the tanks for practical knowledge (without mentioning Afghanistan starts without any tank technology, while Germany has the basics covered from get-go while possessing theoretical and practical skill in the field). And this is without even going into the doctrines needed for making the most out of tanks, which altogether means that Afghanistan is better off buying the production license from Germany if they're okay with wasting away their national resources on a project beyond their meager capacity.

 

[mondblut]

So you've never played HoI3 when you don't even know the simple fact that in HoI3 units are not treated as entities with levels of any sort, but with each piece of equipment being handled separately? Units don't get handled in tiers, their equipment is handled in tiers, and with that equipment you have a LOT more variables at play than just "Infantry 1939".

It would be fairly puzzling to see someone grind infantry small arms to level 10 while ignoring infantry AT at level 1. But sure, having 4 techs to keep up with is better than having 1; more is always better as far as I am concerned. Still irrelevant to the tech teams issue.

There is also nothing realistic about lettin tech be purely determined by presets. Von Braun could not have built rockets if the Nazi regime had decided that they won't fund any such work.

Sure, he wouldn't - which is perfectly implemented through you not doing any rocketry research yourself, duh.

But guess what - if you take Pepe the Only Literate Village Priest in Panama, he will not invent you rockets in 3 years, whether you shower him with gold from a newly found Eldorado or not. Which is what "tech teams" mean.

(if anything, the fact even the illiterate shamans may discover catapults and matchlock muskets by 1945 somewhat cripples the original idea. should have some level caps. maybe a flat cap: team that only has 3 in a relevant tech field may only develop said tech to 1938 level or something; lvl 9 knowledge mandatory to max out a tech)

Lives of major scientific figures are also much more complex than just being born to do the work they did. Von Braun wasn't born with the innate knowledge of making rockets.

Yes. He was born in a country with massive educational infrastructure and scientific schools. With hundreds of universities and professors to shape him into a rocket scientist. Were he born in Panama, he would stay a village priest forever.

 

[Average Manatee]

HoI3 is better in almost every way I can think of other than mod support. Unfortunately I can't stand all of the stupid alt-history crap since there is usually far too much railroading above and beyond the usual HoI2/3 stuff. And I tried Black ICE for HoI3, but the creator appeared to have a really warped view of balance and certainly has some kind of fetish for fucking up every UI screen he could get his hands on. Only mod I play is Random HoI3, which ensures you can have a decent all-out brawl without bullshit getting in the way.

Tech teams were stupid. The idea that your people were predestined to suck in certain fields was astronomically retarded. If there was an invest in techteams ->get tech teams specialized in fields you want ->use tech teams, then that would be a good mechanic, simulating you investing in drawing in good scientists/engineers and sending your own off to be educated. But it doesn't, and it's stupid. How do you think North fucking Korea got nukes? Were koreans magically born with nuclear knowledge? No, the government decided it wanted nukes, and geared themselves to generate educated individuals of that nature. IC linking to research was also stupid. Only better part about research was blueprint sharing. Purchasing production licenses in HoI3 other than for navy and transports (i.e. things you wouldn't worry about a minor anyway) is shit because they don't upgrade.

The main problem there is really just that they nerfed the ability to lower your Neutrality, and that they keep fucking around with the Leadership values for minors. Just bumping the base value to 6 or 8 makes minors work fine.

Neutrality is fine IMO. Finished up a Poland game recently where I had annexed everything in continental europe other than portugal, greece, and germany by August of 1938, over a year before Hitler decided that Danzig was worth fighting the polish superpower like a retard.

Leadership is pretty stupid though. Even after taking Germany and annexing the USSR up to Siberia I had about 15% less leadership than Germany starts the game with . And I played an Australian game where I naval blitzed japan and received 0 leadership for conquering them because they were considered on a different continent (same shit when I annexed South America as Mexico).

 

[Sranchammer]

Let's settle this in a campaign. I call Italy

 

[mondblut]

Tech teams were stupid. The idea that your people were predestined to suck in certain fields was astronomically retarded. If there was an invest in techteams ->get tech teams specialized in fields you want ->use tech teams, then that would be a good mechanic, simulating you investing in drawing in good scientists/engineers and sending your own off to be educated. But it doesn't, and it's stupid. How do you think North fucking Korea got nukes? Were koreans magically born with nuclear knowledge? No, the government decided it wanted nukes, and geared themselves to generate educated individuals of that nature.

Thanks for illustrating my point. North Korea took fifty fucking years to raise education levels, personnel and facilities necessary to create something US scientists possessed by the mid-40s. And 45 of those was building the tech teams the US had.

Hell, the fucking China with its largest manpower in the world took 30 years to stop purchasing or cloning soviet weapons and begin developing their own designs.

The timespan of Hearts of Iron is 12 years. That's nowhere near enough to build the Manhattan Project out of dung hovels.

And being "predestined to suck in certain fields" only means having the fields a country does not suck in already developed by 1936, as they were developed historically. You aren't dumbfounded that Germany has better factories at the start of the game than Costa Rica? Why the butthurt it also has better groundwork for rocketry research then? Wanna research rockets as Costa Rica nonetheless? No problem, takes about 50 years. Oh wait, the game is over in 12. Sucks to be Costa Rica :shrug:

As I said, an ability to lure away foreign researchers would be nifty; after all, a lot of jewish scientists fled Germany to join US teams. Teams leveling their skills as they do research in a particular field would be nice too. But building stellar research teams from ground zero? In 12 years, not a chance.