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KickStarter Guido Henkel's Deathfire: Ruins of Nethermore - CANCELLED

Gord

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Feb 16, 2011
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episodic rpg?? no thanks... This went from somewhat promising to super fail. IF only this guy hadn't been so greedy and taken the few hundred thousand the kickstarter raised instead of demanding half a mil.

If the project fails there are no few hundred thousands - it's all or nothing, right?

Now you could argue that he should have gone for a lower goal, but considering that development doesn't come for free, I doubt he could have gone much lower to deliver the full experience he wanted. "Greed" has nothing to do with it.
The new plan B is just an attempt to salvage the work he already put into the game. If it works is another question, since even for an episodic game, 50000 is probably a bit on the low side. I'm willing to risk a few bucks, however.
 

Lady_Error

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episodic rpg?? no thanks...

Do you even know what episodes mean in this case? Baldur's Gate 2 was also split into episodes - they were called chapters.

In the end all the DF chapters will combine into one whole. The splitting of the game into episodes is primarily to start selling sooner on Steam and finance the rest of the game this way.
 

stony3k

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The funniest thing to me is how so much of the Codex doesn't like people with personalities similar to them. If Guido were a fan, he would fit right in, but as a developer he gets hated
 

Lady_Error

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Back in the days before the Internet I remember talking on FIDO-net to one of the developers of the Realms of Arkania games. He also said that Guido was pretty much the only one who behaved like he is a star at Attic. Though honestly, he seems to have a nice enough personality, especially compared to some of his "critics".
 

Lady_Error

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Too bad, I wonder what he will do now. Leave the games industry for good? Or join forces with someone, which seems unlikely.

He mentioned the Codex too:

In a world of hopelessly vitriolic message boards and web site comment sections filled with unqualified hatred, it has truly been a fresh breeze to watch the “Deathfire” community spring to life.

Also, he should have done the friggin second Kickstarter to get more money than the measly $50k.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It would have been a much better start.

HHR is just pretending not to know that the Kickstarter failed and the only thing that wasn't "sustainable" was asking for money through PayPal on his website
 
Repressed Homosexual
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What I do know is that when PC gamers still paid 40-50$ for their games instead of streaming them all for free off bittorrent or paying pittance for them on digital distribution, there would have been enough revenue for endeavors such as this.
 

Lady_Error

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Yeah, like piracy didn't exist back before the Internet. :roll:

Besides, the average amount people pledged was $46.
 

Longshanks

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What I do know is that when PC gamers still paid 40-50$ for their games instead of streaming them all for free off bittorrent or paying pittance for them on digital distribution, there would have been enough revenue for endeavors such as this.

Doesn't seem like a valid argument against Kickstarter. It's the model where many do pay $40-50 and even much more for their games. It's even brought many hard-core piraters into the market (see Codex). And games sales over all are much higher than they've ever been. The industry has not been killed by piracy or discounted products, it's quite the opposite, increased popularity has shifted everything to the middle. This will change. Once a strong mainstream market exists, more niche markets will naturally develop around it. The cost of making games has made this a little more difficult than say movies or music, but it will happen and Kickstarter is a part of it.
 

stony3k

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Too bad. We need more RPGs not less, but in this case, he would definitely have been better off teaming up with some other folks with more marketing prowess.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
He needs people with money so he doesn't have to worry about raising it. Wait...that sounds like a publisher.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

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Let's face it ...

Blind optimism doesn't make one an optimist, neither does it make other pessimists. There is a healthy average, but it can only hold so long as it's fed properly. Don't think it makes me happy to see a likeable person making beginner mistakes, it makes me angry. Because of frustration, not because of hatred.

Hopefully Guido can learn a bit from this campaign, I think he was just out of the RPG market for too long. As was the Romero crew. Also I think nowadays people must prove themselves much more than in the past. It's a sign of our time. Well, maybe next time he comes up with a more interesting title. In fact I recently started to like some of his old concepts from Thorvalla e.g. trading card system, attack cards etc. This reminded me of "Shadow Era" - though again a niche, but very well implemented from the looks of it.
 

:Flash:

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Apr 9, 2013
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I don't know. I pledged for both of his kickstarters, but somehow I always felt there was something missing. It was never "Yeah, take my money!", it was more "Oh well, it's Guido and I have wanted him to make another RPG for so long, so I guess I'll have to pledge..."

It never felt like he pitched a game that he has dreamed of making for a long time, and that's what I want from a kickstarter. I have pledged for games that I'm not even really interested in from guys without a history, just because the guy convinced me that it's the game he has always wanted to make.
The Chaos Chronicles guys also convinced me that they were making their dream game.
Thorvalla and Deathfire always felt more like a "let's come up with an RPG as this crowdfunding seems to work". I believe him when he says that it "has become a dream project", but at the same time he kinda admits that at first it wasn't.

Perhaps I'm just hopelessly romantic, but I always imagined he must have his drawers full of great and creative RPG concepts that no publisher allows him to realize. That this was an illusion became clear with both of his pitches, and it was bit of a letdown.
 

Gord

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Feb 16, 2011
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Dunno, I think he had a couple of cool ideas with both projects, especially Deathfire had progressed far enough to show.
But while some people inspire confidence, or capture people's imagination quite well*, Guido for some reason with many people in his target audience seems to inspire butthurt.
Personally I don't understand it, but that's just me, so yeah...
Too bad, imho, I would have loved to play both of his two projects.


* considering some of the reactions to the Wasteland 2 beta, maybe they captured the imagination a bit too much
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
:necro:

With the announcement of BT4, I was thinking of Deathfire again. And then I found this: http://guidohenkel.com/2014/10/does-the-nemesis-system-feel-familiar-to-you-perhaps-it-should/

Does the “Nemesis System” feel familiar to you? Perhaps it should…



I have to be honest. I did not follow the development of“Shadow of Mordor” at all. As you may recall, after it turned out to be impossible to get a viewing of the game during this year’s E3 despite my hour-long wait, I lost interest in the game altogether.

Now that it has been released, a lot of coverage has been given to one of the game’s innovative features, the so-called “Nemesis Feature,” which creates pseudo-intelligent opponents that follow certain social orders and appear to populate a living and breathing world that gives every entity the player encounters in the game world goals and purpose. Hmmmmh… I thought to myself when I first heard about this. That does sound very familiar to me!

If you may recall, a year ago we were trying to fund a game project called “Deathfire” throughKickstarter. It was a traditionally-based role-playing game, much in the vein of the award-winning “Realms of Arkania” cRPGs I have been working in the past, with an exceptionally strong focus on characters. Everything in the game was designed around the charcaters in the game and the emotional response you get from their interaction. Not only the player characters, but all the characters in the game world, including your opponents and the monsters. As you may recall, the system we outlined and had begun to develop for the game was called the “Psycho Engine.”

As I explored Mordor’s Nemesis Feature in more detail, it became apparent to me very quickly that in essence it is the same thing as the Psycho Engine I had designed well over a year ago.

Our system was designed to create player and non-player entities/characters that showed behavior along certain personality lines, independently of what the player is doing. By doing so, these characters would not only have appeared visually unique in the game, because their appearance could be tailored to their stats in real-time, but they would also follow individual goals, determined by the Psycho Engine upon tracking and subsequently analyzing the state of the game and the world.

If you compare this to the Nemesis Feature, you will see that it is a carbon copy of what is happening in the game “Shadow of Mordor.” Depending on certain randomly determined parameters, the game creates unique orcs that follow a visual appearance and naming guided by the parameters. Once they make an appearance in the game, they will follow certain goals, such as improving their rank within the orc army or to get involved in one of the many spill-over plots and quests the game offers for that purpose. In addition, these orcs have personalities, based on the parameters, giving them a certain set of dialogue lines and behavioral patterns to match their personalities and goals that make them distinctive and seemingly unique—within limits.

In a nutshell, it is exactly what the Psycho Engine outlined.

The Nemesis Feature also tracks events such as the survival of an orc. If he’s been involved in many battles during the game, like the player, he will level up and become stronger, making sure the same orc will match the player’s progress and always remain challenging when encountered. Once again, this is a feature we had outlined in the Psycho Engine. In fact, the Psycho Engine went even further, giving these entities the knowledge when they were inferior, so that they would be able to respond to it by either abandoning their goals, or by pursuing them even more aggressively.

SkeletonWarriorsFront-300x225.jpg

Just as our Psycho Engine, the tracking of information and data analysis capabilities of theNemesis Feature go far beyond just these basics, however, and like our Psycho Engine it takes the information it gathers into account to influence the story and the world around the player. In the case of “Deathfire” we had many small story scenarios and side plots in petto, which were lying dormant in the game until the Psycho Engine would awaken them as a result of certain triggers, activated by either the player or some Psycho Engine-controlled entity.

You can observe the same kinds of events in “Shadow of Mordor,” where the actions of orcs seem to trigger relevant, as well as irrelevant, events relating to the overall story and world. You can observe them pursuing virtual careers and following random events that create rather complex goals, almost like their own side plots.

Seeing the Nemesis Feature in action is a bitter sweet pill for me, as you can certainly imagine. On the one hand the fact that it has been hailed by gamers and the media alike as the most important innovation in computer games in many years makes me happy, because it proves to me that I have been on the right track when I devised the Psycho Engine well over a year ago, at a time when no one was working on technology such as this, really. Of course, now that it has been touted as the revelation that it is, everyone will try to implement technology such as this in their future games. Which is definitely cool and all, because it will result in better games. Still, the thought that we were actually on the bleeding edge of this technology, yet will forever be completely unrecognized by gamers and the media alike, feels like a backhanded slap somehow.

The thought that “This could have been us!” just keeps nagging at me, but in the end, it was an inevitable development. Somebody was bound to do it sooner or later, particularly since the idea for the technology has been germinating in my mind for years.

In retrospect, it is clear that at the time when we first laid information about thePsycho Engine open, the public did not appreciate or understand the far-reaching impact this technology would have on gameplay, as evidenced by the fact that “Deathfire” did not find even the modest financial support we required to continue developing and completing the game.


It will be interesting for me to see how future games will evolve this technology and make even better use of it. The capabilities of a system like the Psycho Engine, or the Nemesis Feature for that matter, are endless and are only limited by the granularity of the information a game keeps track of and, perhaps, its ability to spend processing time on the proper analysis of the data. In “Deathfire” the concept was to go pretty deep. Because the game wasn’t nearly as graphics-intensive as AAA-titles, there would have been headroom to dig pretty deep into the system and make use of the Psycho Engine with insane levels of depth. Imagine the possibilities in a real role-playing game, as opposed to what you are glimpsing in an action-oriented game like “Shadow of Mordor” and you will get a sense for what “Deathfire” would have been capable of.

It will be interesting to watch what other games will be doing, but remember, no matter what anyone tells you, you saw it here first! The Psycho Engine was way ahead of the curve, even if other games now claim the laurels!

Truly he is a martyr.:M
 

set

Cipher
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Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
Big whoop. System meant nothing in a game that easy, from what I could tell from gameplay videos.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The funny thing is:

when I devised the Psycho Engine well over a year ago

Yes, I'm sure a core design element of a mega AAA blockbuster like Shadows of Mordor was conceived, designed and implemented within the last year. Doesn't he realize they probably thought about it before him? (and would have released their game before Deathfire anyway?)
 

set

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
The funny thing is:

when I devised the Psycho Engine well over a year ago

Yes, I'm sure a core design element of a mega AAA blockbuster like Shadows of Mordor was conceived, designed and implemented within the last year. Doesn't he realize they probably thought about it before him? (and would have released their game before Deathfire anyway?)

Egomaniacs probably can't conceive of such possibilities.
 

imweasel

Guest
He seems to be surprised that the nemesis system is very similar to what he had allegedly designed for his own cancelled game. No butthurt, no drama, no bitching, just him praising himself for allegedly coming up with the same idea.

I was hoping for a new episode of my absolute favorite RPG developer soap opera, but all I got was some lame self appraisal. An outrage!

:outrage:

BTW, the nemesis system ain't that great. Interesting idea, but the implementation falls pretty flat. Nothing to be proud of really. :obviously:
 

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