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Development Info Girls can find love too in NWN2

Drakron

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Running out of time?

Running against what? there is nothing that give a sense of urgency, as you complain about KotOR1 having crash in the last area that just ends up about shutting the shield gener ... the commication jamming system how many times did Atton crashed the Hawk?

Fuck did the entire Jungle Moon with "Mandalore" did not registered with you as a BORING side quest just for having yet another fucking KotOR easter egg (done to please the fanboys).
 
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aweigh

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I think Saint meant the Obsidian developers running out of time to make their game, as opposed to BioWare simply being shitty game designers.
 

RGE

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Drain said:
Volourn said:
And, there are things NWN2 is doing 'worse' than NWN1
Examples, please.
Volourn doesn't like the one-weapon-for-every-damage-resistance thing. Personally I'm ambivalent. It's kind of cool and hardcore to need special weapons for special creatures, but if it's going to be a hack'n slash game, then it's going to be annoying to have to switch weapons like a golfer switches clubs. And a lot of online modules contain a lot of hack'n slash, so where's my caddy? :roll: (oh, they're called "squires" in medieval worlds)
 

Drakron

Arcane
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Well that is how 3.5 works and since NwN2 is forced to use 3.5 mechanics ...

Your golf clubs anology is not lost, I used it as well many people back in Wizards Forums when we seen the proposed changes but I sould not worry about having to switch weapons often since I bet we are going to see "theme areas" were everything that is resistent to something is going to be to just one element and just look at that ... there is a weapon with that same element right in a barrel at the start of the area!
 

bryce777

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Feb 4, 2005
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In my country the system operates YOU
"Well that is how 3.5 works and since NwN2 is forced to use 3.5 mechanics ... "

True, but it really sucks, and the problem bioware has had in the past is to put in FAR too many of these creatures. Just because they exist doesn't mean you have to have one of each kind....
 

Seven

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The only +6 item I can remember in the original is the headband which gives +6 to wisdom and if you take down one of the nastiest enemies in the game at a low level then you damn well deserve an uber item for your efforts. This same item is also a random drop in KOTOR2. Generally I pick it up from one of the random bounty houters on Onderon though there was one game where it just didn't show. The Qel-Droma robes are fairly powerful as well but they too have a powerful enemy guarding them and are no more powerful than the random items in KOTOR2. The other uber items are only accessible at the very end of the game (Star Forge/Revan's robes and the two lightsabre crystals that you can get from the added content).

Firstly, that fight was not difficult by any stretch, so I don't see that you have a point; it's an easily accessible high stat item. Next, I think you're forgetting about the implant enhancements; these are easily the most powerful items in both games.

No, I didn't. The holes are just slightly less glaring with the level cap in place and considerably less over-the-top items in general. And seperating balance from mechanics is a totally arbitary distinction that I see no good reason to observe. You can't develop a good set of game mechanics without taking balance into account.

When you talk about this level cap you overly exaggerate. Yes, we both agree that it wasn’t the best thing for game BALANCE, but it's also some thing that doesn’t become overly problematic until late in the game, and to be honest it wasn’t that bad considering the armies of enemies you ended up having to fight. And yes there is a difference between mechanics and balance, and reviewers should be able to distinguish the two and not use the terms interchangably; if you want to defend their obnoxiousness then go right ahead, it just makes you look stupid.

It might not be the most imaginative end ever but at least it's coherant and doesn't have obvious holes where they had to cut huge chunks out because of schedule overruns.

I'll tackle and this together:

You must have missed the whole cut-scene where Malak blew Revan up and he was mortally wounded, saved only by Bastila's powers. He certainly wasn't the unstoppable uber-Sith when he lost his memories, whether they be by brain damage or the efforts of the Jedi Council. As unimaginative and stereotypically Star Wars as the whole thing is, it does all hang together fairly well in the end.

For Christ's sake are you reading what you're writing? No I didn't miss the scene but I was critiquing the stupidity of it—if you want to talk about plot holes then let’s talk about the ridiculous premise of the first game. “Bastila’s powers” what frigging powers? She’s a nobody and all she has going for her is that battle meditation, so basically an initiate uses her “powers” to brainwash an injured sith lord and that makes sense? And of course, he looses his sith powers just like that—poof? You can’t honestly believe what you’re typing can you?

At least the player character in the 2nd isn’t some uber brain washed dick—the worst thing about the first one is, well here I am Mr Ex-king of the sith and yet no one recognizes me not even my old soldiers and not even the jerk who runs my sith training school or any one—yeah, that’s definitely not a plot hole, how could I have ever doubted you, silly me, ha ha ha let’s all point and laugh at me…
 

Volourn

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"Volourn doesn't like the one-weapon-for-every-damage-resistance thing. Personally I'm ambivalent. It's kind of cool and hardcore to need special weapons for special creatures, but if it's going to be a hack'n slash game, then it's going to be annoying to have to switch weapons like a golfer switches clubs. And a lot of online modules contain a lot of hack'n slash, so where's my caddy?"

Eh? The new 3.5 DR rules are far from my biggest problems with NWN nor would I blame Obsidian for that.
 

RGE

Liturgist
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Messages
773
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Well, it's the only thing I remember you having a problem with. At least I think it was you. What would you blame Obsidian for then? Come on, repeat yourself! We all know you can do it! :D

And there's far too much KotOR in this NWN2 thread. :(
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
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1. Familiars are nothing but Pocket Protectors.

2. They are destroying the best interface in gaming ever, and replacing it with an unknown.

3. No sewers. You can't have a fantasy game with no sewers.

4. They screwed up rideable horses.

5. The forced starting alignments (though that may have been changed).


The list can go on..


P.S. I should point out ebfore people whine about my 'bias' is there are also lots of things I like that NWN2 is doing that NWN1 didn't.
 
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aweigh

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I think he means your NPC companions come with a pre-set alignment? Or your starting alignment determines which NPC's join you? (e-smoochies!)

Seems doubtful your PC will be force-fed an alignment, either way.
 

Rhombus

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In my head.
Sawyer said something about the PC starting out as True Neutral and then have the actions ingame shift the alignment around alot more than in the first game I think.. Unless the class had alignment restricions, like Paladin having to be LG..

Personally, I think it sounds like a rather nice way of doing it.. kinda like Fallout in a sense.
 

Section8

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Sawyer said something about the PC starting out as True Neutral and then have the actions ingame shift the alignment around alot more than in the first game I think.. Unless the class had alignment restricions, like Paladin having to be LG..

Personally, I think it sounds like a rather nice way of doing it.. kinda like Fallout in a sense.

It's interesting, because in a sense it compells players to act according to their alignment, or otherwise, adapts an alignment to suit the way the character is playing, but I don't think it's really better or worse than just picking an alignment to indicate that your character has spent their life prior to the game doing good/dastardly deeds inside/outside the law.
 

Drakron

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Seven said:
Firstly, that fight was not difficult by any stretch, so I don't see that you have a point; it's an easily accessible high stat item. Next, I think you're forgetting about the implant enhancements; these are easily the most powerful items in both games.

First yes and no ... its only avaible after you complete 2 planets and are near the end of a 3rd.

The fight is required but that does not make the item being easy to access.

And you next is flawed because only scouts could use implants in KotOR and there was no "implant factory bench" on it and even if they are the most powerful there is a trade off of having to be a scout.

In KotOR 2 that +6 item was in random loot tables so you could get it in the Harbringer (and I did) that means right at the start of the game, implants were avaible to everyone ... the fact BAB progression was the same and there was not a tradeoff to use then make then far "uber" that BioWare did in KotOR.
 

HotSnack

Cipher
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Messages
650
Implants were a class feature for scouts in kotor 1, everyone else needed to take it up as a feat.
 

Crazy_Vasey

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Messages
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Firstly, that fight was not difficult by any stretch, so I don't see that you have a point; it's an easily accessible high stat item. Next, I think you're forgetting about the implant enhancements; these are easily the most powerful items in both games.

The Terentatek is about as tough a fight as you'll ever get in either KOTOR outside of bosses. It might not be much but it's something. And the item's only useable to light side characters. It's not the best idea ever, yeah, but it's better than having random enemies drop stupidly powerful items. Did you miss the point where I said that that uber-item can be picked up as a random drop in KOTOR2? It's about the most powerful item in the game and I got it off some fucktard bounty hunter that went down in one flurry.

Implant enhancements – the powerful ones anyway – require either a third level feat or an obnoxiously high constitution depending on which game you're playing. Feats aren't something you get a huge amount of. At most, you get one per level as a soldier/guardian, and while you can get the implants for free that requires playing as a scout through till level 8 which severely cuts into the amount of force points you'll have at the end of the game. Either way, you have to sacrifice other aspects of your character to get those items. They're not just random drops that you're free to use.

When you talk about this level cap you overly exaggerate. Yes, we both agree that it wasn’t the best thing for game BALANCE, but it's also some thing that doesn’t become overly problematic until late in the game, and to be honest it wasn’t that bad considering the armies of enemies you ended up having to fight. And yes there is a difference between mechanics and balance, and reviewers should be able to distinguish the two and not use the terms interchangably; if you want to defend their obnoxiousness then go right ahead, it just makes you look stupid.

Strangely enough, it's the end of the game where the difficulty becomes ridiculously low as well. Those armies of enemies are little more than a speed bump by that stage unless you've built a really weak character. My builds are never, ever designed for maximum power and I still have zero problems. My brother, well, it's just ridiculous how he goes through them. The cap at level 20 would have made it a great deal more reasonable. 5 or 6 levels less force points and powers might have made it a bit more of a challenge.

It was a ridiculous decision to remove that cap really. The game's based on a P&P system where level 20 is some sort of near-impossible to get uber level. From what I remember, and it's been a long time since I've looked at the material, even people like Yoda and Palpatine aren't level 20. Having some random fucknut of a Jedi running around at level 25+ is bound to cause that system to break down.

Game balance is very closely tied to game mechanics. Designing a levelling system where the player character can reach ungodly levels of power is bound to make the game balance break down and it seems to happen in most RPGs that I've played. Honestly, can you tell me that there was any challenge left in Fallout once your gun skill of choice was high enough that you stopped missing every other shot? I don't see how this is arguable.

For Christ's sake are you reading what you're writing? No I didn't miss the scene but I was critiquing the stupidity of it—if you want to talk about plot holes then let’s talk about the ridiculous premise of the first game. “Bastila’s powers” what frigging powers? She’s a nobody and all she has going for her is that battle meditation, so basically an initiate uses her “powers” to brainwash an injured sith lord and that makes sense? And of course, he looses his sith powers just like that—poof? You can’t honestly believe what you’re typing can you?

If she was nothing special outside of her battle meditation, they wouldn't have sent her to go up against Revan like that. And all she did was keep the mortally wounded Revan alive long enough to get him to proper medical help. That's all. The rest was all the work of others. And whether it was brainwashing or simple amnesia was never really confirmed. Bastila's clearly under the impression that Revan suffered from amnesia but the Sith think it was brainwashing. Either way, it obviously wasn't Bastila who would have been the one to do the mindwipe when it came down to it.

At least the player character in the 2nd isn’t some uber brain washed dick—the worst thing about the first one is, well here I am Mr Ex-king of the sith and yet no one recognizes me not even my old soldiers and not even the jerk who runs my sith training school or any one—yeah, that’s definitely not a plot hole, how could I have ever doubted you, silly me, ha ha ha let’s all point and laugh at me…

Can't say I disagree with that to be honest. The mask wearing would cover most people but there must have been some around who would have recognised Revan. Unless every Jedi on Dantooine but Juhani knew and didn't say anything it's a problem.

KotOR2 also had the advantage of Obsidian knowing that Star Wars wasn't ANCIENT TEMPLE OF DOOOOOOOOM after ANCIENT TEMPLE OF DOOOOOOOOM. While there were some temple-ish areas in KotOR2, KotOR1 just felt like a D&D adventure with lightsabers. Lightsabers which worked just like any other sword, for the most part.

The Baldur's Gate in space feel of the combat is probably the worst part of both KOTOR games for me. But it's not like I expected any better from Bioware. I went in with very low expectations and was pleasantly surprised in the end. The temples . . . well, they didn't actually bother me that much to be honest. We got a pretty spread of other terrains with the Wookiee world, Tatooine (yet again), Taris, and Manaan, and it fits the whole idea of searching for some ancient artefact of ultimate evil power that was most of the game's plot.

You can't move in the EU without tripping over some Sith tomb anyway so I can't say I wasn't expecting it.

I'm not saying that KotOR2 didn't have a disjointed ending, like what was the deal with that Darth Whatever dude on the big, rusty ship that you kill? There wasn't a heck of a lot of character development on that protagonist. He just seemed like Kill the Sith Waypoint Number 1 rather than being something somewhat important to the story. He's got a huge ship, and he's supposedly a bad ass - but did anyone really care much about him?

I'll never understand that. Nihilus was the cover-art villain and he got about as much screen-time as random NPC #46290 in the end. At least with Malak you got the feeling right from the beginning that the game was building towards a confrontation with him even if he was a moustache-twirling cheese-fest of a stereotypical RPG villain.

That said, the planet before you get to the DARK SIDE FACTORY OF DOOOOOOOM in KotOR1 was pretty cheesy. The big problem with it was that it broke the tension of the plot. I've got all the pieces, I'm making my way to the DSFoD, and I wreck. Fine. Now I have time to get involved with planetary politics? What? The area wasn't poorly designed, it was just way out of place with the pace of what was going on in the bigger picture.

Yeah, it's a speed bump so they can say '25 hour game' or whatever they were claiming on release. At least it doesn't take all that long. I also remember having a 'shit, need to get off this planet fast' feeling the first time through so the Republic fleet didn't go boom which is what they were aiming for I think. And then I remembered that the game didn't model time at all outside of those stupid swoop races. Ah well.

Both kind of lost their focus after you get the four vital pieces of the puzzle, but KotOR2's lack of focus seemed more an issue of running out of time as opposed to just not knowing what they're doing.

The sheer amount of cut material that would have made the KOTOR2 plot make sense would definitely indicate that you are correct about them simply running out of time and/or money. I don't really care though. The end result is the same and they knew they had a tight deadline when they took the project on. There are also several utterly ridiculous things in the game that make me wonder if it was just the deadline that caused the problems. I mean, who designs bosses that have hardly any powers to use?
 

Seven

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You argue your points well, and like I said before I can’t really blame you for having an opinion different than mine—I don’t think I’m going to change your mind and I can pretty much guarantee that I’m not going to change mine, so why continue this argument? Because it’s the most fun I’ve had here in a long while, so let’s start from the top:

Like you said, while the Terentatek is “tough” for the game it’s by no means difficult to kill. And I still believe that it is accessible quite early, especially given it’s power (and yes, I’ve your post, Drakron, and I just have to disagree with you on this point. And if we’re going to discuss getting and using powerful items, well then let’s talk about the light saber in KOTOR2. If we use your logic then having to wait for it is a good thing because it aids balance—I hated being a Jedi and not having a light saber, it just felt wrong even though it made for some interesting character leveling choices).

As for the implants, I think the trade in feats is well worth the stat boost.

As for the level cap, well I don’t think it has the huge impact that you say it does. Let’s say that there is a level; it means that you peak sooner, so difficulty only becomes “balanced” at the end, or as soon as you hit the cap. But I don’t buy this, I think that it still would have been no problem even with “just” a level 20 character. The problem with level caps is that once you hit them your character feels stagnant, so then what? Especially in action driven games where half of it is building this uber character—realistically, in action oriented games it’s very hard to justify a level cap because it takes a way part of the motivation (if this were a story driven RPG then the motivation would primarily be advancing the plot),

As for FO, well the thing about that system is one lucky shot and you’re toast, so you always have to walk a line and never get too cocky; I know that I died a few times in the game in FO and it just ruined the immersion and it made me be more careful and less likely to run in guns blazing.

It’s basically stated that all Bastila has is her battle meditation; I could be wrong but when you acquire her she doesn’t even have the Jedi heal power, so you’ve reallt got to wonder about the whole mindwash amnesia thing, it’s a huge hole. The sequel has holes too; supposedly you’re the last Jedi and yet you encounter Jedi throughout the game—does that make sense? No, of course not.
 

Volourn

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"It's interesting, because in a sense it compells players to act according to their alignment, or otherwise, adapts an alignment to suit the way the character is playing, but I don't think it's really better or worse than just picking an alignment to indicate that your character has spent their life prior to the game doing good/dastardly deeds inside/outside the law."

being forced to have a specific alignment doesn't compel this at all. Having alignment change based on the character's action does. And, I have no problem with that.

But, I think it's dumb to have a dwarf cleric who worships Moradin be TN. It's also impossible. They should have to be good 9I think LG and NG ar ethe allowed alignments)

And, as you mentioned, a character isnb't created in a vaccum. They have a history prior to the game starting (unless we're roel-playing newborns lol).

Witht he cleric example above, that same character can eventualluy be corrupted and turn to greed, eventually worshipping Abathor the God of Greed and have their alignment changed to a more suitable wrong.

That is a good thing.

Forced starting alignment (outside of paladins since you have to be LG) is plain odl fashion stupid. Not every character is enutral. Period. In fact, most dwarves are LG, and most elves are CG. But, Obsidian seems to have forgotten (or ignored this facts) and pigeon hold everyone as some sort of uncaring punk or nature lover (being TN).
 

AlanC9

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Messages
505
Seven said:
“Bastila’s powers” what frigging powers? She’s a nobody and all she has going for her is that battle meditation, so basically an initiate uses her “powers” to brainwash an injured sith lord and that makes sense? And of course, he looses his sith powers just like that—poof?

What are you talking about, Seven? Nobody ever said that Bastila had anything to do with Revan's brainwashing and memory erasure. She was there when he was captured, but that's all.
 

Seven

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AlanC9 said:
Seven said:
“Bastila’s powers” what frigging powers? She’s a nobody and all she has going for her is that battle meditation, so basically an initiate uses her “powers” to brainwash an injured sith lord and that makes sense? And of course, he looses his sith powers just like that—poof?

What are you talking about, Seven? Nobody ever said that Bastila had anything to do with Revan's brainwashing and memory erasure. She was there when he was captured, but that's all.

She’s also the only Jedi who allegedly survived the attack on his ship. From this we may assume that she had to have done something to stabilize his condition and possibly subdue his sith powers. That said, even if she didn’t have anything to do with the brainwashing it’s the friggin lord of sith getting brainwashed—Am I the only one sees something wrong with the sith lord just getting brainwashed just like that, even if it's by half a dozen Jedi masters, it's still ack.
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
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Messages
505
Again, what are you talking about? There is no mention of the rest of the boarding party dying when Revan was captured.

And just because Revan was the most powerful Sith doesn't mean that he was lots more powerful than the Jedi who didn't turn. Smarter than them, sure -- wouldn't be hard -- but not that much stronger in the Force.
 

themadhatter114

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Volourn said:
"It's interesting, because in a sense it compells players to act according to their alignment, or otherwise, adapts an alignment to suit the way the character is playing, but I don't think it's really better or worse than just picking an alignment to indicate that your character has spent their life prior to the game doing good/dastardly deeds inside/outside the law."

being forced to have a specific alignment doesn't compel this at all. Having alignment change based on the character's action does. And, I have no problem with that.

But, I think it's dumb to have a dwarf cleric who worships Moradin be TN. It's also impossible. They should have to be good 9I think LG and NG ar ethe allowed alignments)

And, as you mentioned, a character isnb't created in a vaccum. They have a history prior to the game starting (unless we're roel-playing newborns lol).

Witht he cleric example above, that same character can eventualluy be corrupted and turn to greed, eventually worshipping Abathor the God of Greed and have their alignment changed to a more suitable wrong.

That is a good thing.

Forced starting alignment (outside of paladins since you have to be LG) is plain odl fashion stupid. Not every character is enutral. Period. In fact, most dwarves are LG, and most elves are CG. But, Obsidian seems to have forgotten (or ignored this facts) and pigeon hold everyone as some sort of uncaring punk or nature lover (being TN).

But if the character is an adolescent with no experience outside the community, no real alignment would make sense because no great dilemmas have been faced. A level one character should probably be considered an initiate of their class rather than a representative. Plus I would assume that the very first action alters the alignment. So you'll probably have your alignment after your very first choice. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

It's not like your character starts out as a practicing cleric. You do, after all, have ZERO experience points at the beginning.
 

Volourn

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Wrong. Level 1 assumes you have some training in your chosen class. Afterall, that's why 1st level clerics have spells and why 1st level fighters can use weapons with skill, and why wizards have spellbooks.


"But if the character is an adolescent with no experience outside the community, no real alignment would make sense because no great dilemmas have been faced."

Wrong. There's a reason why it's believed that teaching values during childhood is considered very important. One's morals are usually formed during that time.

On top of that, you are not a kid at 1st level (minimum starting age according to the rules for a human) is 15-16. And, remember, this is ancient times where at that age you arne't stuck in some high school. Morals aren't magically formed at 18 (or whatever age of majority) like they are in modern times. LOL

Just because you 'lack experience' outside of your community doesn't mean your moral code isn't formed.

Not to emntion the fact that dwarves aren't adults to like 50, and for elves it's over 100 years of age so they've had LOTS of time for their world view to be shaped.

Stop being brainwashed.
 

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