Fucking ToEE, how does it work

[Falkner]

So, I installed TOEE again to maybe complete it this time. Since I don't really want to bother with Hommlet too much, I also installed Co8 7.1.0 NC. Unfortunately, the game crashes after choosing the party alignment. Vanilla TOEE works, strangely. Did anyone else have this problem?

 

[Falkner]

Well, fuck. Apparently the game doesn't like my old character files and I have to roll up a new party. This will take a while.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I wonder if there is a site somewhere that focuses on describing all the D&D crap for normal people, who never played p&p. For example, how does quick draw function as per the game mechanics? What do they even mean by "draw"? Does it pertain to changing weapons like going from sword to bow? Just started ToEE for the first time seriously and it seem great game even for people, who don't enjoy infinishit games, but lack of intelligible descriptions for non-nerds is a big problem. I have to google shit every 5 minutes and even then a lot of things remain unclear, because it's usually some forum, where everyone's already savvy with the dnd lingo.
The same with true strike. I understand that it improves the next combat move for spellcaster, but what in hell does "insight bonus" means and what does it improve exactly?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

An insight bonus is just a type of bonus, but basically it's just a bonus. There are many different types and the reason the game differentiates is because you can't stack bonuses of the same type. So a Luck bonus and Insight bonus will stack, but two Insight bonuses won't. Just take the bonus as what it is - a bonus, and you get the idea. The name is not too important.

 

[Gnidrologist]

No i don't get the idea, because it says +20 insight bonus. 20 of what?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

A 20 insight bonus to say, attack, is just a +20 to attack. If you had another spell which gave a Morale bonus of +2, it would stack. But if you had another ability that gave a +5 Insight bonus to attack, the highest one would be taken and they do not stack. It's just a bonus of 20 to whatever it is it's modifying.

True Strike gives a +20 bonus to the attack bonus for your next attack, it's that simple.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Okey, so a sorcerer's next attack is a sling shot. What will be modified by 20 in the particular roll? Or is this just meaningless number just like "insight" is a meaningless word?
What about the quick draw?

 

[Ebonsword]

I wonder if there is a site somewhere that focuses on describing all the D&D crap for normal people, who never played p&p.

Or maybe you could, you know, try reading the manual?

 

[Gnidrologist]

Does it contain more elaborate spell descriptions than those that are in game help menu?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Okey, so a sorcerer's next attack is a sling shot. What will be modified by 20 in the particular roll? Or is this just meaningless number just like "insight" is a meaningless word?
What about the quick draw?

Yes, the next attack will increase the Attack Bonus of your character (whatever it may be) by 20, making it a very accurate attack.

Not sure about Quick Draw, haven't used that.

 

[Cael]

Quickdraw allows you to pull out a weapon as a swift action rather than a move equivalent. Don't bother with it.

ToEE is quite faithful to 3.5. What you need is the SRD d20.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Quickdraw allows you to pull out a weapon as a swift action rather than a move equivalent.

Well, that's what the game says and the problem with this is that i have not a slightest idea what it means. What do you mean pull out weapon? It's always drawn in this game (i know i just don't get some abstraction involved, but the game help files don't add to understanding them better, nor does d&d wikipedia).

 

[Cael]

Quickdraw allows you to pull out a weapon as a swift action rather than a move equivalent.

Well, that's what the game says and the problem with this is that i have not a slightest idea what it means. What do you mean pull out weapon? It's always drawn in this game (i know i just don't get some abstraction involved, but the game help files don't add to understanding them better, nor does d&d wikipedia).

Change weapons. For example, you have a bow in hand. An enemy runs up to your face. You want to get rid of the bow and draw your sword. In 3.5, you can drop the bow (free action) or put it away (move action). To draw a sword, you need a move action, unless you have Quick Draw, where it becomes a free action. So, your possible combinations are as follows:

1. Put away the bow and draw the sword. Move action + move action = your turn is over.
2. Put away the bow and Quick Draw the sword. Move action + free action = you get a partial attack.
3. Drop the bow and Quick Draw the sword. Free action + free action = you get to full attack.

The wording of the feat assumes you know what the actions mean and how a round progresses in the 3.5 system. You really need to read up on that (it is in the SRD) to get what they are saying.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Yeah, this is much clearer. I assumed as much that it involves less "action points" spent on changing from one set of weapons to another, but the game is too vague for dumb computar gamerz like me. It assumes everyone already understands the system, just not the particular dnd version. I remember when i played through some of the BG and IW games many years ago i just built my characters on intuition mostly, not understanding half of what my skills/feats are, because those vague and cryptic descriptions are obviously useful only for people, who have played pnp.
I've already spent some time reading up on shit, but some of it still eludes my understanding. Low iq i guess.

 

[Cael]

Yeah, this is much clearer. I assumed as much that it involves less "action points" spent on changing from one set of weapons to another, but the game is too vague for dumb computar gamerz like me. It assumes everyone already understands the system, just not the particular dnd version. I remember when i played through some of the BG and IW games many years ago i just built my characters on intuition mostly, not understanding half of what my skills/feats are, because those vague and cryptic descriptions are obviously useful only for people, who have played pnp.
I've already spent some time reading up on shit, but some of it still eludes my understanding. Low iq i guess.

3.x, especially, is very logical, modular and quite regimented in its approach. You need to know how the different parts (modules) of the game work with each other (e.g., different types of actions) to get the most out of it. As a result, it appeals to engineering types whereas the more arty-farty types get frustrated and start calling it bad names in keeping with their emotional nature.

:D

 

[Gnidrologist]

Actually the part that frustrates me is exactly opposite - lack of very concrete info that could be put into spreadsheet, if needed. The nonsensical "insight bonus of 20" can't be put anywhere in the roll equation. You just kinda get that it makes ur attack moar bettar, but the word and the number couldn't be placed anywhere in excel file. I like D:OS system, which is fairly complex, but very straight forward at what it does each step of the way.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Spoiler

D&D is garbage

 

[Cael]

Actually the part that frustrates me is exactly opposite - lack of very concrete info that could be put into spreadsheet, if needed. The nonsensical "insight bonus of 20" can't be put anywhere in the roll equation. You just kinda get that it makes ur attack moar bettar, but the word and the number couldn't be placed anywhere in excel file. I like D:OS system, which is fairly complex, but very straight forward at what it does each step of the way.

You need to know the bonus types That's in the SRD also :D

 

[Cael]

Spoiler

D&D is garbage

Spoiler

rusty_shackleford is oxidised.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Is there a reason why ranger can take rapid shot twice? Both have slightly different descriptions, with one of them having NONE as a pre requisite (which seems to be wrong) and the second one has "(ranger)" at the end. Bug? (both Co8 and Temple+ if i installed correctly that is) It doesn't seem to add third shot per action or anything.

 

[Cael]

Is there a reason why ranger can take rapid shot twice? Both have slightly different descriptions, with one of them having NONE as a pre requisite (which seems to be wrong) and the second one has "(ranger)" at the end. Bug? (both Co8 and Temple+ if i installed correctly that is) It doesn't seem to add third shot per action or anything.

Rangers get a Combat Style at level 2. If you take the Archery style, you get Rapid Shot for free. However, it only works in light or no armour.

The normal Rapid Shot works in any armour. The two feats don't stack.

 

[Black]

20 of what?

It doesn't really matter, what matters is you get +20 from that kind of bonus. Bonuses of the same kind do not stack (unless stated otherwise) but of different kinds do.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Why i think it's confusing is that it doesn't add to any concrete metric that is visible in the game, like dice rolls and the modifiers that get used in them. There isn't "insight" in any of those so where does it appear. It's under the hood stuff that you simply have to keep mental note of and try out empirically.
I think dnd is a nice system with lot of flexibility and get really enjoyable once you startunderstanding what you're doing, but these kind of vague components slows a learning curve for no good reason.

 

[Cael]

Why i think it's confusing is that it doesn't add to any concrete metric that is visible in the game, like dice rolls and the modifiers that get used in them. There isn't "insight" in any of those so where does it appear. It's under the hood stuff that you simply have to keep mental note of and try out empirically.
I think dnd is a nice system with lot of flexibility and get really enjoyable once you startunderstanding what you're doing, but these kind of vague components slows a learning curve for no good reason.

The thing is, the actual books explain the concepts very well. It is the abbreviated stuff we get online that are missing a lot of things. That said, if they were to put in the entire books, you'll end up with a far larger game and a lot of copyright issues resulting in loss of revenue (which WotC would rather chew off its own arm than entertain).

 

[Gnidrologist]

Fair enough.

Btw does combat expertise and and combat reflexes negate each other as passive skill modifier or they should be activated in combat?