Elminage ORIGINAL - Priestess of Darkness and The Ring of the Gods

[BlackGoat]

Am I crazy or is there no way to quit to main menu and exit the game?

Ah, I had it full screen, I guess just x-ing out is the way to go? Feels weird

 

[moraes]

Just turn off your PSP!

(Don't you love quality ports?)

 

[Shackleton]

You can't really blame them for not wanting to put in an enormous of work on programming this for PC. According to Steamspy, Gothic has sold between around 9,000 and 15,000 copies and that's been out for years. Everyone knows you're not going to hit gold by porting over a turn based blobber from Japan, you're just going to get a few bucks from the fans like us who appreciate the genre.

It'll be really interesting to see if Bard's Tale 4 has any effect on the popularity of blobbers; personally I doubt it. If MMX didn't, I'm not sure BT4 has much chance. Elminage and E:Gothic are mechanically so superior to anything else recently (well, since Wizardry!) that it's clear the vast majority of gamers just aren't able to see past the graphics and lack of explosions. /sadface

 

[Grauken]

BT4 will suffer from the same as MMX, that it's a sequel in name only. Actually a new series or game not starting with any numbering (ala Grimrock) could probably do more to revive the genre than either MMX or BT4 had/have the chance to.

 

[Shackleton]

Really enjoying this again, trying to split time between this and Nioh and it's drawing me right back in again, for the third time. Rolling with Sam/Hunter/Thief/Cleric/Alch/Mage with a Bishop in storage at the bar for ID'ing. Really should try Shaman for once, never levelled with one as I'm not sure which role he fulfills really. I suppose he could replace the Hunter but I'm thinking the Hunter is going Ninja when I find a Class changing item, and I'll keep the Thief for all the juicy stealing you can do in E:O.

*Sob*. Quoting myself because I realise I made a major balls-up. See children, the perils of playing too many blobbers! I've been playing a fair bit of Wizardry 7 recently and was convinced that Hunters get Alchemists spells in Elminage, like they do in Wiz7. Hence the cunning plan to build up Alch spells on the hunter before Ninja swap. But of course, no Alch spells for Hunters in this game. Also, there is no Thieves Dagger in Elminage, only the Silver Rapier that turns only a thief into a ninja. So complete cock-up on the hunter, no doubt about it.

Mind you, he's sporting some Innocent gear and is fair old chewing through the mobs with his Innocent sword and Chimaera Dagger, so I'm not too heartbroken. Will probably swap him out for my Ninja once he's got some levels. Or maybe keep the Thief for pure stealing expeditions and run with Sam/Lord/Ninja/Hunter/Alch/Mage, with the Hunter with a bow 'pursuit-ing' everything. Had Brawler/Summoner combo last time around so trying to keep away from that again.

 

[Filthy Sauce]

FUCKING PRAYING MANTIS KEEPS CUTTING MY DUDES DICKS OFF

 

[Dorarnae]

thats cause original is about having fun not grinding for gear and mats so you dont get beheaded and blasted. Classes scale better in power so it doesn't feel like the drake fighter is carrying the party by himself for the entire game. Gothic is fun and great also but I feel the godawful translation and UI hurts its initial appeal too much.

Gothic could of been much better. I got in late for the beta test but when I got in, they were still in the beginning of the game. the game crashed at multiple place...I'd say it's almost a miracle we got the game in an 'ok' state. I spent like 100 hours(gameplay only, that doesn't count my time spent on forum writing bug ,helping others ect), in about 7-9 days during my vacation. I was shaking at the end, it was time to take a lil break hehe.
I reported some stuff but they didn't fix it.(like some monster when they call for reinforcement it doesn't work, it does nothing, unless they fixed it after release)
the battle background looks blury and has no animation.
not having the faceload and musicload (people were able to find a way but still, would of been nice if they put that feature since the psp version had it...)
Most people during the test seemed to prefered how ghostlight changed the map, the new icons ect. I personally prefer how it was and how every elminage are (green line,stairs that look like stairs... easy to the eye...)

both game are good for different reason. I like original because it's overall an excellent crawler and can be completed in like 30-40 hours(killing the gods ect).
Gothic is very good too, harder ect but also requires more time overall, so I'll probably replay original more often.
so far I think I played original 6-7 times and gothic 4 times

 

[Haplo]

Well, I really like the addition (return?) of item graphics. They were sorely missing in Gothic.
Also like the mapping improvements/streamlining (yeah, I'm not really as hardcore as some of you, guys).
Plus enjoy the overland map and the great freedom this game offers.
Miss the EX Skills but eh, not as much as I feared.
Overall seems to be a fun romp. Less serious and hardcore then Gothic, but also, like Dorarnae wrote, probably requiring less dedication and more suited for short gameplay sessions.

 

[Haplo]

I'm finding this surprisingly addictive.
The open world is great, I'm free to get my ass kicked wherever I wish :D ...but also possibly to reap some higher rewards if I'm very lucky.

The areas I've visited so far compared with Gothic resemble more actual spaces and look less like puzzle mazes. I've found an actual building in the forest! Unbelievable!
Also the locations of fixed encounters (the ones with chests) seem less... random. Most of the time they seem to guard some rooms/caves/other closed spaces.

Plus the "console nature" of this port, with a single save and without even a way to exit to main menu means I'm reloading way less then I typically would in those games - much less then in Gothic for example. Don't re-roll poor level-ups most of the time, don't reload most character deaths (recently was left with only the back row). Feels kinda good.

So far I'm rocking:
1. Werebeast Samurai
2. Devilish Brawler
3. Dwarf Valkyrie
4. Hotlet Thief (may become a Ninja some day... maybe... but I also intend to try stealing stuff first)
5. Werebeast Alchemist (Neutral, to be Hunter). Wanted to teach her some Clerical magic and/or some Summoning, but eh, Alignment conflict (have neutral-good party). Had a Good Dragonnewt Alchemist already but Hunters can't be good for some reason. Well, at least Werebeasts have much better Agility (though Lightning Strikes can sometimes make this less crucial) plus Poison fangs can help. Now that I think about it, Valkyrie would be a possibility for magic. But it has slower growth, probably don't want to delay that character too much.
6. Fairy Mage (lots of plans here: light Summoner <10 levels, Cleric, Alchemist, Bishop). Possibly too much, but it shouldn't take too long to get to 13... even times 4.

I miss the Spirit Pact skill to turn summons into player characters... was really fun building my party from OP monsters with crazy boosts. I guess it really was OP... and without it there will be less grinding Summons + new characters.

By the way, does any of you knowlegeable Gents know how the Alchemist spell slots transfer to Hunters? I guess it's not enough to get 1 single spell level 7 slot, as it won't grow over time naturally? Better to stay Alchemist till there are 9 spell level 7 slots?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

ORIGINAL is awesome. Have so many games to play right now but I got several hours in and was really impressed. Translation is great, dungeons are awesome, not *quite* as punishing as Gothic (you can use a map whenever you want, and Alchemist class gives you an actual MINI-MAP. Wow, wasn't expecting that.) The artwork is gorgeous and it looks pretty damn nice in 4K, too (even if wall tiles, etc., aren't really high res. Turn on all Nvidia Control Panel enhancements, they will actually make a huge difference.)

Overall it's great. Will play more in the future but it seems like a more user-friendly Gothic, and also a more polished port. Oh, and open-world!! Even though you should probably avoid most of it at the start.

 

[Dorarnae]

I'm finding this surprisingly addictive.
The open world is great, I'm free to get my ass kicked wherever I wish :D ...but also possibly to reap some higher rewards if I'm very lucky.

The areas I've visited so far compared with Gothic resemble more actual spaces and look less like puzzle mazes. I've found an actual building in the forest! Unbelievable!
Also the locations of fixed encounters (the ones with chests) seem less... random. Most of the time they seem to guard some rooms/caves/other closed spaces.

Plus the "console nature" of this port, with a single save and without even a way to exit to main menu means I'm reloading way less then I typically would in those games - much less then in Gothic for example. Don't re-roll poor level-ups most of the time, don't reload most character deaths (recently was left with only the back row). Feels kinda good.

So far I'm rocking:
1. Werebeast Samurai
2. Devilish Brawler
3. Dwarf Valkyrie
4. Hotlet Thief (may become a Ninja some day... maybe... but I also intend to try stealing stuff first)
5. Werebeast Alchemist (Neutral, to be Hunter). Wanted to teach her some Clerical magic and/or some Summoning, but eh, Alignment conflict (have neutral-good party). Had a Good Dragonnewt Alchemist already but Hunters can't be good for some reason. Well, at least Werebeasts have much better Agility (though Lightning Strikes can sometimes make this less crucial) plus Poison fangs can help. Now that I think about it, Valkyrie would be a possibility for magic. But it has slower growth, probably don't want to delay that character too much.
6. Fairy Mage (lots of plans here: light Summoner <10 levels, Cleric, Alchemist, Bishop). Possibly too much, but it shouldn't take too long to get to 13... even times 4.

I miss the Spirit Pact skill to turn summons into player characters... was really fun building my party from OP monsters with crazy boosts. I guess it really was OP... and without it there will be less grinding Summons + new characters.

By the way, does any of you knowlegeable Gents know the Alchemist spells transfer to Hunters? I guess it's not enough to get 1 single spell level 7 slot, as it won't grow over time naturally? Better to stay Alchemist till there are 9 spell level 7 slots?

it probably does but I always like to keep an alchemist because enhancing gear is <3
I'd wait til post game before class changing, so you can get a medal of power and class change without restarting to lvl 1, and keep using the innocent gear.
I do suggest keeping your thief for a while, they can steal great stuff in this one compared to gothic and your brawler will need it.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'd recommend keeping multiple party members and maybe a second party anyway, as you can lose characters in the game (if you don't save scum, which I recommend not doing.)

 

[Haplo]

it probably does but I always like to keep an alchemist because enhancing gear is <3
I'd wait til post game before class changing, so you can get a medal of power and class change without restarting to lvl 1, and keep using the innocent gear.
I do suggest keeping your thief for a while, they can steal great stuff in this one compared to gothic and your brawler will need it.

Ah yes, thank you. I will definitely keep the Thief for now. Although right now level 26 and stealing seems a long way to go.
Regarding Alchemist, sure, enchanting is very useful. But unless I'm mistaken, there is no functional difference between a level 1 and level 25 Alchemist. So I guess I will multiclass mine and keep a spare one in the tavern. Once my party goes beyond level 26, I may try to powerlevel/donate to increase his level. Will see.
In Gothic I managed to get by with a level ~30 one. Although my party consisted mainly of monster adventurers, mostly with exceptionally high resistances. And I didn't quite reach the end of the post game yet.

 

[Haplo]

I'd recommend keeping multiple party members and maybe a second party anyway, as you can lose characters in the game (if you don't save scum, which I recommend not doing.)

While I realize that was the way these games were supposed to be played, I do not think I am quite hardcore enough / have enough spare time for that playstyle.
For now reloading much less then in Gothic, no reloading on poor level ups and not necessarily reloading near-party-wipes will have to do.

 

[Haplo]

One other aspect I rather like, is that there seems to be a bit flatter equipment progression then in Gothic. The distance between beginner and end game equipment seems significantly smaller. Although the really crazy stuff mostly appeared in Gothic post-game.

 

[Dorarnae]

One other aspect I rather like, is that there seems to be a bit flatter equipment progression then in Gothic. The distance between beginner and end game equipment seems significantly smaller. Although the really crazy stuff mostly appeared in Gothic post-game.

yeah there are some good armor piece in the main game and the +3 charm are only in some dungeon. but most best weapon are in the post game.
thing is, AC in this game doesn't play a big role like gothic, it really helps in the beginning but eventually it doesn't make a huge difference.(unless you have a character with like -200,-300 AC...)

 

[aweigh]

you guys have to make one very big distinction here regarding itemization, as Gothic is a big departure in that department.

E: Original has 300 or so items available to players through standard means (loot), and around 300 additional items that are only available through stealing them from enemies.

Gothic has 650 or so items available to the player through standard means, with an additional 50 or so items being enemy specific as the majority of E: Gothic's enemy lineup utilizes "enemy weapons" which can't be stolen and whose damage is scaled depending on the enemy's level, i.e.:

- in Gothic a weak dragon-type enemy will use "Claw +1", and later dragon-types will use "Claw +4", and so on.
- in E: Original each enemy utilizes "normal weapons", and they can all be stolen.

Why did they change this? I don't know. A lot of E: Gothic's conceptual ideas were left on the cutting room floor as it originally was planned to have several villages, similar to E: Original and you can even find all the cut locations/villages in the game's textures.

E: Gothic also originally was planned to include a visit to Elminage realm and one more chat with the Record Keeper, once again these locations discovered only by going through the game's textures. For the 3DS version Starfish went through every single enemy in Gothic and changed their "enemy weapons" to "normal weapons" and flagged them as available to be stolen, which is why the 3DS version features a much longer item list.

Important to note that they changed almost every one of those previously enemy-only weapons to do less damage and generally changed enemy stats to make them easier to defeat.

In any case the difference in itemization is one where I prefer the route they decided to take with E: Gothic only because it means the vast majority of loot is available to the player without needing to be stolen first, something which is only possible once the Thief has gained 20+ levels and unlocked that skill.

It also means that since all of the E: Gothic is intended to be used only by human players that they balanced the weapons much better than in previous Elminage games, with a clear line of progression which I appreciate more than the easier progression found in E: Original where you can find yourself in the Dragon's Fang still using loot from the first set of dungeons!

EDIT: for the record I am not against the game having a lot of weapons available only through Stealing, in fact that is a great addition to game play and it is the main reason to even bother seeking out the 3DS version (which otherwise dumbed down the game even going as far as altering/simplifying dungeon layouts).

What I'm saying is that Starfish, when originally making E: Gothic on japanese PSP, decided to focus specifically on making as many items/loot as possible and (I assume) didn't have enough time or resources to also then additionally make a seperate item list for enemies, which is why they scrapped that but then later added in enemy-items again in the 3DS port.

if it comes down to having more items with better progression (Gothic) between having less items because half of them are for enemies (Original), I prefer the Gothic itemization route.

Obviously the optimal thing is to have both approaches, but realistically speaking it's hard to do. The re-introduced enemy equipment in the 3DS port of Gothic is appreciated, and indisputably a benefit, but after having finished Gothic on PC and putting hundreds of hours on it and then playing through it again on 3DS to steal items I can safely say it is not that big of a deal.

 

[aweigh]

I made an (unifinished) mod for the PC version of Gothic which allows players to Steal enemy items, btw.



Turned out buggy though since it was never something meant to happen (I changed every single enemy-only item by hand), so the game doesn't have any way of actually informing you that the stealing was successful, hah.

Since those enemy-only items needed new stats I copy/pasted the stats from the 3DS port's item list, but I never finished doing this because it was a shit load of work and as I mentioned, buggy. Sometimes those enemy-items would not even appear as text on your inventory!

EDIT: I steal that Shellcrab's Strike 1 at about the 1 minute and 50 second mark, but since the game has no way of informing you whether it was successful or not the first minute of the video is me just spamming equipment removal and checking the inventory to see if it worked.

 

[Haplo]

One other aspect I rather like, is that there seems to be a bit flatter equipment progression then in Gothic. The distance between beginner and end game equipment seems significantly smaller. Although the really crazy stuff mostly appeared in Gothic post-game.

yeah there are some good armor piece in the main game and the +3 charm are only in some dungeon. but most best weapon are in the post game.
thing is, AC in this game doesn't play a big role like gothic, it really helps in the beginning but eventually it doesn't make a huge difference.(unless you have a character with like -200,-300 AC...)

Kinda sad about the low importance of AC. In Gothic not only did it protect from a lot of damage, at the same time it was a great defense against enemy attack status effects...

 

[aweigh]

Well, E: Original is generally an easier game and that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you decide to the post-game though get ready to get party wiped though, as the difficulty spike is insane.

I found the difficulty spike in E: Original post-game way bigger than in E: Gothic's post-game simply because in Gothic you're getting wiped all the time right from the beginning, whereas in Original that'll only happen if you decide to go into areas under-leveled.

You're gonna want to raise elemental resistances a lot in Original since the biggest party wiper in my experience was being on the receiving end of Enterook Mistas.

Also of note are the demon party encounters: they will always be much harder than anything else you're encountering at that moment! Those guys come ready to party. Remember that in every single demon party encounter you have the opportunity to steal their unique loot, and you can do it as many times as you want via the "Recorded Battles" option in the Record Keeper's sanctum (doorway to the post-game).

You have to have defeated the original encounter first, though, in order for it to show up in the "Recorded Battles" option.

 

[Haplo]

Well, E: Original is generally an easier game and that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you decide to the post-game though get ready to get party wiped though, as the difficulty spike is insane.

I found the difficulty spike in E: Original post-game way bigger than in E: Gothic's post-game simply because in Gothic you're getting wiped all the time right from the beginning, whereas in Original that'll only happen if you decide to go into areas under-leveled.

Also my experience was that the difficulty curve in Gothic was pretty smooth. Only the late post game (like Ibag Tower level 11+ ... or 15+) almost requires grinding to stay competetive. Before that it's mostly enough to simply explore and progress.

 

[aweigh]

post-game is where you'll find all the really tough encounters in Original. I remember I got party-wiped on very first encounter as soon as I stepped into the Old World, some Vampire Lords level drained me and then spammed Enterook Mistas, wiped in less than 3 rounds and barely scratched them.

I actually had to go and grind a few levels back in the Dragon's Fang. Original and Gothic are really good examples of two different approaches to the exact same formula:

- Original dungeons almost always revolve around gimmicks/puzzles and large more open areas.

- ...whereas Gothic dungeons are always focused more on being mazes with rarely any open areas whatsoever.

- Original can give you a challenge but only if you intentionally seek it out, with large portions of all of the dungeons
being optional in the sense that a lot of Original dungeons feature large areas that do not contain anything necessary to advance

- ...whereas in Gothic very little is "optional" and you're always guided in a very linear fashion through dungeons, with each new dungeon being intentionally harder than the one before.

- Original itemization: half of the game's item list is locked behind enemy-only items that must be stolen, and a smaller portion of it is locked behind Quest Rewards.

- Gothic itemization: 95% of the game's item list is just normal loot that drops.

This is not a list of pros/cons I'm merely pointing out fundamental differences to some of the core elements of the Wizardry-blueprint, dungeon design and itemization.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, although the open world of Original lets you find challenges earlier as well. For example yesterday I've encountered some new mobs on 2nd floor of Garden of Light. Their opening move was Enterook Mista and, needless to say, none of my 25-65 HP party survived that...

 

[BlackGoat]

Going back to Gothic briefly after playing 12 hours of Original feels so good. So fast and smooth. Original is enjoyable tho.

 

[aweigh]

so I got around to installing this new PC port of E: ORiginal and I gotta say they really outdid themselves with whatever process/tools they use to upscale that art.

I don't know why, because it shouldn't be, but this PC port of Original's 2D sprite art looks cleaner and sharper than Gothic, and this shouldn't be if they used the exact same process since both games were natively developed on PSP hardware, and if anything the PSP spritework of Gothic should have upscaled better.

I'm genuinely curious as to what tools they use for this sort of thing, if any tools, as maybe the original artwork was already "HD" resolution? I know Gothic's PC port features textures that are 2-3k mb's, but I haven't gotten around to unpacking Original's PC port's textures yet to see their sizes.

For the record the PSP games mostly used 512x256 and 512x512 as enemy texture resolutions. I do think the E: Gothic menu textures look much better though, but I think that has more to do with art design and font kerneling than texture size.

All that said it's pretty amazing the jump in graphics from Original to Gothic for the dungeon walls! Like I said, both games were done natively for PSP hardware limitations but they sure as fuck managed to squeeze out some great looking (in comparison to Original) dungeons for Gothic.

My E: Gothic graphics-whore highlights for dungeon graphics are:

- Ulmik Zur Mansion dungeon (white walls with red decor)
- Inner Sanctum's progressively more decayed and gothic looking dungeon of nightmares
- CAVE OF THE ANCIENTS (not even lying here, or trying to be edgy; those wireframe lines look fucking good)

As for E: Original I think this game is ripe for a texture replacement pack to make those mountain, cloud and forest dungeons pop.

Unfortunately:

- PC port of E: Original uses different archive encryption than PC port of E: Gothic, so a new unpacking method is required
- Doing new textures for the game would require a lot of work
- Nobody but us in this thread will ever play this game






EDIT: BTW, for those on the fence about whether to do their full E: Original playthrough on 3DS port or on PC port, I recommend the PC port because the 3DS port of E: Original is locked to 20fps.

That isn't much noticeable especially with walking-animation disabled, but it is noticeable when you play the PC ports of Original/Gothic without V-Sync and fly through dungeons and battles at 100fps.

For the record PSP versions are locked to 30 fps. Like I said this is something I only noticed for real when I looked at the CITRA Emulator's FPS counter while playing through the E: Original 3DS port and saw that "20 fps" indicator. I thought it might've been that CITRA build but I tried the game on several very different build branches and all report 20 fps.

But once you boot up PC port of E: Original and play with 250 fps or whatever, there is no comparison.