Incline Dominions 4 announced

[Grimwulf]

Ok, you got a point. Being sacred and mindless makes these things stand out. And it's not like EA R'lyeh has any problems with S or D gems.

But then again, is it worth taking a bless just for the sake of this spell? It's not like EA R'lyeh has any use for a bless. No other sacred mages; sacred units (Gibodai) that don't benefit from any bless in the game; no national summons. It would probably be worth it to try and focus your strategy on Androdai spamming, but look:

1. You have to recruit an Androdai in a coastal fort with lab and temple.
2. Then he must dive UW and go to the province with Aboleth-host (Mind Vessel only works on Androdais in the same province). Unless his insanity is triggered.
3. Then you must cast Mind Vessel with an Aboleth. And Twiceborn as Androdai, unless his insanity is triggered.
4. Then you gotta go/teleport and suicide an Androdai to trigger Twiceborn. Unless his insanity is triggered.

That's a Star Stable -tier of challege. Not to mention that each Aboleth can only have one vessel, so you can't really SPAM these things like a Chinese babyhouse.

So. Are they worthy of a bless?

Edit: in fact, I'm pretty sure the spell is bugged. Reading the description, all magic paths of the host should be inherited as a vessel. Currently it's only S path, and it's not even combined with vessels' mastery.

 

[mondblut]

1. You have to recruit an Androdai in a coastal fort with lab and temple.
2. Then he must dive UW and go to the province with Aboleth-host (Mind Vessel only works on Androdais in the same province). Unless his insanity is triggered.

Planting a few abo's in coastal forts with fish amulets? Or is ritual UW-only?

That's a Star Stable -tier of challege. Not to mention that each Aboleth can only have one vessel, so you can't really SPAM these things like a Chinese babyhouse.

Well, you can have many abo's herding these things, and popping new ones every 3rd turn.

So. Are they worthy of a bless?

Beats me, I cannot into blesses beyond EN on rocks and giants They sure could benefit from E for reinvig and S for MR.

Edit: in fact, I'm pretty sure the spell is bugged. Reading the description, all magic paths of the host should be inherited as a vessel. Currently it's only S path, and it's not even combined with vessels' mastery.

Nope, the unit desc says:

the resulting mind vessel can use the understanding of the Androdai as well as the astral magic of the Mind Lord.

Wouldn't expect them to combine either. Two S1s do not an S2 make.

 

[Grimwulf]

Planting a few abo's in coastal forts with fish amulets? Or is ritual UW-only?

Well, no. You can cast it anywhere. It's just that Amulet of the Fish isn't a common thing for EA R'lyeh (expensive + no recruitable mage can forge it). Besides, Aboleths usually have better things to do. Like, Miind Hunting or even researching.

Well, you can have many abo's herding these things, and popping new ones every 3rd turn.

I guess somebody has to play it in actual pbem and try them out.

 

[mondblut]

Fair enough. Still, if you are using these guys at all, there is absolutely no reason not to twiceborn them. Dead they are much better than living

 

[Zibniyat]

So, don't know whether it was this patch or not, but GiftofReason-ed Tartarian Monstra isn't selectable, and its default state upon becoming a commander is "Preach"

What the hell? Where do I send my complaints? I think I'll visit their Steam page...

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

Business as usual for insane commanders. Soon he'll be demolishing your temples.

 

[Grimwulf]

What the hell?

Insanity trait.

Edit: I wasn't fast enough.

 

[Zibniyat]

Business as usual for insane commanders. Soon he'll be demolishing your temples.

Didn't know that, although I should have. Anyway, back to the game.

 

[Grimwulf]

So, Breath of Wnter - anybody knows why does AI randomly ignore this spell in the scripts? It pisses me off rather. Currently playing Niefelheim, using a lot of Niefel Jarls as SC. Usually they are all scripted to cast BoW on turn 5. Which sometimes they do, and sometimes they replace it. The replacement spell is either Quicken Self (for those who are not supposed to be quickened due to insufficient reiving) or skellyspam (which eats 40+ fatigue per cast). As you can imagine, both replacements royally fuck up their fatigue. Lost 2 Jarls due to that already, others who fucked up the script were at least lucky enough to live with it.

So, previously I thouhgt that the temperature is involved somehow. Nope, some Jarls cast it in Heat 3, others ignore it even in Cold 3.

Then I thought that equipment was the reason. Probably those equipped in Rime Hauberks ignore this spell? Chill from Hauberk doesn't stack with Chill from BoW? Nope, I've tested it in sp sometime ago - it stacks perfectly fine. Jarls get all bonuses combined (native 15 + 3-5 from W mastery + 6 from Hauberk + 6 from Breath of Winter), resulting in 30+ Chill power in total. But trying to test it right now, I can't make any Jarl cast BoW for some reason - they all ingnore this spell in the script. Probably some patch changes? Or propably I am missing smth.

Anybody has any ideas what's the cause?

 

[Haba]

Also, maybe someone could update the thread title? r00fles!

 

[mondblut]

But trying to test it right now, I can't make any Jarl cast BoW for some reason - they all ingnore this spell in the script. Probably some patch changes?

Another potential battle inconsistency fixed

maybe this? :D

Wouldn't be surprised that AI is supposed to think "I already have a chill of my own and a chill item, that's enough, fuck this spell" and now they ensured it always does.

 

[Dayyālu]

I remember once reading about the mechanics of the much-coveted 5 spells that can be set-up. Ya see, Dominions does not bruteforce the spells choices on the caster: it simply *tweaks" the spell casting AI to give more value to those spells. I'll explain myself better:

When left to their own devices, a mage will cast from the list of known spell based on the relative value assigned to the spell by the game engine. I can't be arsed to find where those values are reported (or if they ever were) but some spells have a HUGE value - mostly self-buffs and Conj summons-.

When you set up the list of scripted spells, it simply adds something like +10'000 or whatevs to che internal value of the spells. YET, this does not guarantee that those spells, particularly after four turns of battle, will be cast: the RNG can even further modify the result. In your case, the sum of all the Cold Auras probably knocks incredibly down the spell value of BoW in the list, and the AI chooses a higher value spell.

Patch changes can also change the equilibrium as the internal "spell values" are tweaked: I've seen players complaining about that.

Is this an appropriate reply?

 

[Grimwulf]

Is this an appropriate reply?

It is surely possible. However, I believe there is some very specific reason that makes AI ignore BoW alltogether. I mean, in some cases (when you cast all other buffs and don't have access to high-tier skellyspam) AI prefers to cast Raise Skeleton instead of BoW. That's some royally fucked up "internal values", let me tell ye. An army of barbarians rushes towards you - would you rather EMPOWAH your freezing aura, or summon a single legless skeleton?

Also had a theory that Jarls don't cast BoW when there are allied units/commanders without cold res nearby. Nope. Jarls have no problem freezing their own armies to death.

It might be something similiar to why they refuse to cast Resist Fire (sometimes!) if they already have fire res equipment on them. Maybe the Chill aura value is so high, they just randomly skip this spell in the script? Why randomly, though? And what value of Chill aura is considered to be high? For instance, Skrattis in werewolf form equipped in Rime Hauberks (Chill 6) never skip casting BoW.

Why does this game have to be so weird and obscure at times?

 

[mondblut]

Why does chill stack, anyway? If you attach a surface cooled to -60C to a body cooled to -150C, the body will get warmer, not colder

 

[Grimwulf]

Why does chill stack, anyway? If you attach a surface cooled to -60C to a body cooled to -150C, the body will get warmer, not colder

Not sure if they become colder, but rather the aura itself stretches further.

Chill 6 (the small flickers mark the affected squares):

Spoiler

Chill 24:

Spoiler

Higher aura values inflict higher fatigue damage too, but I don't know the exact formula. It's heavily affected by the temperature too.

 

[Johannes]

No idea if it checks for Cold Resistance or Chill Aura, as BoW provides both (as does Rime Hauberk), but in all likelihood when you have enough the casting AI thinks that you don't need more of it and casts something else.

Whether it's a soft or hard threshold, I don't know.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Why does this game have to be so weird and obscure at times?

It's weird that this "feature" of Dominions has always intrigued and frustrated me like no other game.

"Well hey look at this cool sounding spell, doesn't really say what it does exactly but man it sounds like it could turn the tide here"

*next turn*

"Nope....no it did not, that was complete shit"

*Frustrated at failure, goes and pours through dozens of forum threads and plays some test games until an answer/alternative is found(sort of)*

"It's 3AM, what have I done?"

 

[Malakal]

Oh yes, unraveling how I remember thee...

 

[KoolNoodles]

Oh yes, unraveling how I remember thee...

Don't think I've ever used that in a MP game. Sounds dreadful. What's the idea? Your Pretender(I assume) teleports onto an enemy army to wipe out a bunch of summons and feelblemind a group of mages....then casts returning?

 

[Malakal]

Oh yes, unraveling how I remember thee...

Don't think I've ever used that in a MP game. Sounds dreadful. What's the idea? Your Pretender(I assume) teleports onto an enemy army to wipe out a bunch of summons and feelblemind a group of mages....then casts returning?

Yes but you need to stack mr because he can also get feeble minded. I hit more of my mages than of enemy magic beings that are supposed to be countered by the spell. Not to mention decay vs magic beings isnt even good type of damage.

 

[Grimwulf]

Androdais cannot be feebleminded, right? Too bad they are magic beings, as well as Androleths. Still, you can put Unraveling to good use as EA R'lyeh (Twiceborned Androdais are no longer magic beings, but still mindless - they can use the spell with no drawbacks if you compose armies out of non-magic units).

 

[Johannes]

Androdais cannot be feebleminded, right? Too bad they are magic beings, as well as Androleths. Still, you can put Unraveling to good use as EA R'lyeh (Twiceborned Androdais are no longer magic beings, but still mindless - they can use the spell with no drawbacks if you compose armies out of non-magic units).

They can be. If they weren't, the prime use would be risk-free Mind Hunting.


Unraveling does have niche use. Just drop it like a nuke at a big mage stack, obviously don't have other mages of your own there, then retreat the caster. Best done with Armor of Virtue. Obviously you having both a viable caster, and a viable target, is extremely rare.

 

[Grimwulf]

They can be. If they weren't, the prime use would be risk-free Mind Hunting.

So you've tested it then? I made an assumption based on Black Bow of Botulf - its feeblemind effect doesn't work on mindless.

 

[Johannes]

They can be. If they weren't, the prime use would be risk-free Mind Hunting.

So you've tested it then? I made an assumption based on Black Bow of Botulf - its feeblemind effect doesn't work on mindless.

Haven't tested them specifically, but Golems certifiedly can be feebleminded from Mindhunt. And looking at it on inspector Unraveling feeblemind has no exception for Mindless either.

 

[Kane]

https://killscreen.com/articles/the-outsider-art-of-dominions-4/