Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Pre-Release Thread

[taxalot]

But at least I felt like they moved the plot forward in DE1. DEHR felt just like "revelations" being delayed mission after mission.

 

[T. Reich]

But at least I felt like they moved the plot forward in DE1. DEHR felt just like "revelations" being delayed mission after mission.

Personally, I was bothered by it at first as well, but then I considered that it might've been the whole point of the game's plot.
The tone of the game is quite different from DX or DX:IW. Adam Jensen is just an unwitting pawn in a very large-stakes game. He's not exactly special like JC or that guy from DX:IW. Unlike them, he's not useful alive to anyone, his "special" resource having been already harvested by the start of the game.
All that drives Jensen is just petty revenge and some misguided feelings for his ex who dumped him a couple of years before the start of the game. His boss is about as clueless as he is, and all Jensen can do is follow the clues left behind by the people who actually act first an make all the important decisions in the game.
In the end, Adam can influence or achieve nothing - the princess didn't need saving, his boss could control nothing, and the conspiracy was not uncovered. Whatever button you pressed didn't change squat in the grand scheme of things, as was revealed in the post-credits scene.
That's why the "ending video" in DX:HR was so pathetic - because nothing was changed. There was nothing notable achieved to congratulate the player on.

Just imagine if there was no Adam Jensen at all. What would've changed?
Adam or no Adam, the HF raid on Sarif's factory was a success, with Typhoon schematics being stolen and eventually reverse-engineered by Tai Yong.
Adam or no Adam, the new biochip deployment was a success.
Adam or no Adam, Darrow decided to activate the madness signal leading to eventual collapse of Panchaea.
Adam or no adam, Megan Reed would end up working for Page.

What did Adam achieve?
Patched up some security loopholes in his company's network, yay!
Found out about Tai Yong's involvement, but Sarif couldn't do anything about it anyway.
Dealt a minor PR blow to Humanity's Front.
Found and saved 3 captive scientists who weren't self-admittedly nearly as good as Megan, and who weren't that important anyway.
Broadcast an ultimately meaningless message about what happened on Panchaea, or destroyed it instead.
The only about meaningful thing Adam did was to shut down the madness biochip signal, and that's it.
But the biochips are still there, the Illuminati only lost a couple of secondary members (neither Darrow, nor Zhao or Taggart were members of the Inner Circle) while retaining all of the valuable research and still acting in secret, undeterred.

Jensen might as well not have existed. The whole game has been about the ultimate futility of one clueless man's efforts versus the invisible hand.

Compare that to DX and DX:IW where both protagonists are instrumental (or at least significantly important) to every side's plans. ultimately, JC and Alex are not just pawns to be moved by an invisible hand, they eventually become active players, making their own decisions and dealing with every side of the conflict how they see fit, not howw their "boss" told them. And they know much more than Adam Jensen.

 

[Infinitron]

I remember people saying Panchaea should have received an Illuminati hit squad that Jensen would have to fight, in addition to the "zombies". Then, if he hadn't been there, they would have shut down the signal. Though I guess Zhao might have done it herself at some point?

 

[Ninjerk]

I thought HR succeeded when it focused on Jensen as a kind of detective/fixer than when he started climbing the global conspiracy ladder.

 

[T. Reich]

I remember people saying Panchaea should have received an Illuminati hit squad that Jensen would have to fight, in addition to the "zombies". Then, if he hadn't been there, they would have shut down the signal.

That would've been logical.
Or, given the lack of maintenance and some structural damage sustained, Panchaea could've crumbled on its own pretty soon.
Not to mention that Zhao of all people was already inside the Hyron Core, standing guard by the door that contained the terminal that controls the signal.

Anyway, what's that with DX and chinese femme fatales who have some sort of fixation with hanging out inside high tech installations' cores?

 

[Infinitron]

I don't know. Maggie Chow was a pretty derpy character, btw (why the fuck is a random Hong Kong actress rubbing shoulders with the conspiracy? who IS this lady?)

Zhao was a much more coherent take on the archetype. Shame about the Jensen cutscene stupidity though.

 

[Decado]

The writing in HR was fine until the end when it fell apart. I'd put it above DX1 for the first 70% of the game though.

Wrong. WRONG!!@!

The great thing about DX1 was that it was essentially pulp fiction and greasy cyberpunk. And that can be terrific, provided you don't take it too seriously. Five minutes into DX:HR you can tell the game was written by whiny, PC-obsessed Canadians who disappeared up their own asses while chasing self-importance. The writing was a complete bag of seen-it-coming shit from start to finish.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

I loved DEHR, but yes, the story was a definitive let down. The narration was just NPC A telling you to go to NPC B for intel, but B tells you that first you must do a job for C, before being sent to D who tells you that damn, that intel was just fake but E has the real answer and goddamnit ! E is in custody, so you need F to help him but he'll only help if you go talk to G and...

Find Tong -> Find Dowd -> Find Dumier -> Find DuClare -> Find Everett -> Find Savage -> Find Tiffany -> Find & kill Page.

 

[Latro]

I'm somewhat fearful to see how they handle Page in MKD, and the kid dentons if they get cameo'd

 

[pippin]

Well the lore was respected in HR, so if they didn't changed writers or something like that there shouldn't be trouble.
In fact some people complained HR respected the lore a little bit too much, but we can all agree this was for the best.

 

[Decado]

Plus Jensen is a gigantic pussy compared JC Denton.

You mechs may have copper wiring to reroute your fear of pain, but I've got nerves of steel.

 

[Dreaad]

But at least I felt like they moved the plot forward in DE1. DEHR felt just like "revelations" being delayed mission after mission.

Personally, I was bothered by it at first as well, but then I considered that it might've been the whole point of the game's plot.
The tone of the game is quite different from DX or DX:IW. Adam Jensen is just an unwitting pawn in a very large-stakes game. He's not exactly special like JC or that guy from DX:IW. Unlike them, he's not useful alive to anyone, his "special" resource having been already harvested by the start of the game.
All that drives Jensen is just petty revenge and some misguided feelings for his ex who dumped him a couple of years before the start of the game. His boss is about as clueless as he is, and all Jensen can do is follow the clues left behind by the people who actually act first an make all the important decisions in the game.
In the end, Adam can influence or achieve nothing - the princess didn't need saving, his boss could control nothing, and the conspiracy was not uncovered. Whatever button you pressed didn't change squat in the grand scheme of things, as was revealed in the post-credits scene.
That's why the "ending video" in DX:HR was so pathetic - because nothing was changed. There was nothing notable achieved to congratulate the player on.

Just imagine if there was no Adam Jensen at all. What would've changed?
Adam or no Adam, the HF raid on Sarif's factory was a success, with Typhoon schematics being stolen and eventually reverse-engineered by Tai Yong.
Adam or no Adam, the new biochip deployment was a success.
Adam or no Adam, Darrow decided to activate the madness signal leading to eventual collapse of Panchaea.
Adam or no adam, Megan Reed would end up working for Page.

What did Adam achieve?
Patched up some security loopholes in his company's network, yay!
Found out about Tai Yong's involvement, but Sarif couldn't do anything about it anyway.
Dealt a minor PR blow to Humanity's Front.
Found and saved 3 captive scientists who weren't self-admittedly nearly as good as Megan, and who weren't that important anyway.
Broadcast an ultimately meaningless message about what happened on Panchaea, or destroyed it instead.
The only about meaningful thing Adam did was to shut down the madness biochip signal, and that's it.
But the biochips are still there, the Illuminati only lost a couple of secondary members (neither Darrow, nor Zhao or Taggart were members of the Inner Circle) while retaining all of the valuable research and still acting in secret, undeterred.

Jensen might as well not have existed. The whole game has been about the ultimate futility of one clueless man's efforts versus the invisible hand.

Compare that to DX and DX:IW where both protagonists are instrumental (or at least significantly important) to every side's plans. ultimately, JC and Alex are not just pawns to be moved by an invisible hand, they eventually become active players, making their own decisions and dealing with every side of the conflict how they see fit, not howw their "boss" told them. And they know much more than Adam Jensen.

It's interesting that you view this as good story telling. To me it looks like the easy way out in terms of design and writing, hey lets make a game about conspiracies, super corporations and shit, in which you as the main character get to do nothing at all! Make the player talk to random people whom he can't actually influence in any way, can't even kill them, that way we have maximum story left over for sequels woohoo. It has Biowarian story design written all over it, meaningless superficial decisions, people that treat you like the chosen one in terms of what they expect you to achieve and no tangible pay of regardless of what you do.

The fact that Jensen is dull and stupid doesn't help matters.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I don't see where he says that's a good thing and JC and especially Alex weren't the sharpest tools in the shed either so i don't understand the last comment. They are supposed to be supersoldiers, who are always doing someone's bidding or are entangled by forces they have no control or knowledge over. Only times they take initiative are in the endgame choice. Everything to that point is being driven by mystary kabal and protags are pawns who everyone uses for their own devices.

 

[Dreaad]

Maybe. To me I guess it didn't seem like that was the case in DX. Sure people use you, but you have quite a lot freedom in trusting people and using them too, from getting your kill switch removed, to saving Lebedev against UNATCO's wishes, most of the later NPC's telling you to go have a look at things if you don't believe them, letting you make up your own mind. You feel far more in control of what your player is doing to solve the mystery. Jensen is just after Megan and seems not to care about what's going on around him. He finds out an AI is running the news and he's just like "Whatever, on with my quest I go."

Probably just my preferences I guess.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I think ''it feels'' is the key word here. You have a freedom to look around and minor choices in some quests, but essentially you will be doing the same things anyway.
Besides, i don't see anything wrong with Jensen being in it mostly for revenge and finding his kidnapped woman. That's actually refreshing compared to all the save the world/decide its future that was in previous DXes. Its also logical within setting and fact that Adam's background is merely an ex SWAT/cop turned into security chief, not someone, who has been engineered for certain grand purpose. At least as far as he's aware.

 

[tuluse]

Player-Jensen actually gets to pick if he gets the firmware upgrade or not. Player-JC doesn't have anything like that.

 

[Ninjerk]

Player-Jensen actually gets to pick if he gets the firmware upgrade or not. Player-JC doesn't have anything like that.

Player-JC decides whether to murder the first UNATCO soldier for his "assault rifle."

 

[Gnidrologist]

And they both can decide whether to peak into women's bathrooms and get mocked for that. C&C!

 

[Ismaul]

Deus Ex was never about story or roleplay choices. It was always about choices regarding how you approach your missions (augs feed into that).

In that respect, the original was better because the expansive maps gave you more leeway to try things. The only aspect where Deus Ex HR is better is with dialogue choices, and again they're not really about roleplay or story, it's the same "how do you approach this" gameplay and trying to find the best approach for the situation.

 

[T. Reich]

But at least I felt like they moved the plot forward in DE1. DEHR felt just like "revelations" being delayed mission after mission.

Personally, I was bothered by it at first as well, but then I considered that it might've been the whole point of the game's plot.
The tone of the game is quite different from DX or DX:IW. Adam Jensen is just an unwitting pawn in a very large-stakes game. He's not exactly special like JC or that guy from DX:IW. Unlike them, he's not useful alive to anyone, his "special" resource having been already harvested by the start of the game.
All that drives Jensen is just petty revenge and some misguided feelings for his ex who dumped him a couple of years before the start of the game. His boss is about as clueless as he is, and all Jensen can do is follow the clues left behind by the people who actually act first an make all the important decisions in the game.
In the end, Adam can influence or achieve nothing - the princess didn't need saving, his boss could control nothing, and the conspiracy was not uncovered. Whatever button you pressed didn't change squat in the grand scheme of things, as was revealed in the post-credits scene.
That's why the "ending video" in DX:HR was so pathetic - because nothing was changed. There was nothing notable achieved to congratulate the player on.

Just imagine if there was no Adam Jensen at all. What would've changed?
Adam or no Adam, the HF raid on Sarif's factory was a success, with Typhoon schematics being stolen and eventually reverse-engineered by Tai Yong.
Adam or no Adam, the new biochip deployment was a success.
Adam or no Adam, Darrow decided to activate the madness signal leading to eventual collapse of Panchaea.
Adam or no adam, Megan Reed would end up working for Page.

What did Adam achieve?
Patched up some security loopholes in his company's network, yay!
Found out about Tai Yong's involvement, but Sarif couldn't do anything about it anyway.
Dealt a minor PR blow to Humanity's Front.
Found and saved 3 captive scientists who weren't self-admittedly nearly as good as Megan, and who weren't that important anyway.
Broadcast an ultimately meaningless message about what happened on Panchaea, or destroyed it instead.
The only about meaningful thing Adam did was to shut down the madness biochip signal, and that's it.
But the biochips are still there, the Illuminati only lost a couple of secondary members (neither Darrow, nor Zhao or Taggart were members of the Inner Circle) while retaining all of the valuable research and still acting in secret, undeterred.

Jensen might as well not have existed. The whole game has been about the ultimate futility of one clueless man's efforts versus the invisible hand.

Compare that to DX and DX:IW where both protagonists are instrumental (or at least significantly important) to every side's plans. ultimately, JC and Alex are not just pawns to be moved by an invisible hand, they eventually become active players, making their own decisions and dealing with every side of the conflict how they see fit, not howw their "boss" told them. And they know much more than Adam Jensen.

It's interesting that you view this as good story telling. To me it looks like the easy way out in terms of design and writing, hey lets make a game about conspiracies, super corporations and shit, in which you as the main character get to do nothing at all! Make the player talk to random people whom he can't actually influence in any way, can't even kill them, that way we have maximum story left over for sequels woohoo. It has Biowarian story design written all over it, meaningless superficial decisions, people that treat you like the chosen one in terms of what they expect you to achieve and no tangible pay of regardless of what you do.

The fact that Jensen is dull and stupid doesn't help matters.

I didn't say it's good (will not judge the quality of the writing) and I can't say I liked that approach to DX story, but what I will say is that at least it's consistent throughout the game (that's good), and given the prequel nature of DX:HR it's a fairly reasonable approach that obviously aimed to minimise the game's impact on the overall storyline of the universe, probably at the cost of doing more exciting things. I think that the writers definitely succeeded here, because whatever DX:HR story had happen, it's not contradicting DX, and whatever questionable things could be there, they could reasonably be handwaved by the fact that it's a 25-year gap between games story-wise. So, in my opinion the DX:HR story is at least solid overall.

Also, the approach to conspiracy themes from the side of the powerless protag is also fairly valid. After all, for each mover and shaker, there are thousands powerless pawns. I didn't read it, but what I hard about the DX:HR tie-in book, they took the same approach, where the book's protags achieved jack shit after much personal struggle. Sure, it's pretty disappointing, especially when we talk video games, where a palyer by default expects to do exciting and meaningful stuff (to escape the fact that they do neither in real life). I wouldn't call it Biowarian, though. Biowarian storywriting means you get to do exciting universe-influencing stuff and are totally the importan person in-universe. It's your decisions as a player that mean jack shit.

Jensen is totally dull and stupid, but Alex and JC are also dull and superficial, though I wouldn't necessarily call them dumb, given their education background and in-game dialogues.

 

[Gnidrologist]

For a security guy/soldier Jensen seems quite savvy. What did you expect him to do? Cite Kant or do deductive reasoning on Sherlock Holmes level? Don't remember JC or Alex doing anything smart either. Main protags in DX are high tire spec-ops with augs. It has been a staple in all three games (Alex was a faggot though).

 

[CyberP]

Only valid point where DX excels on top of HR was better augmentation three/development.

Find Tong -> Find Dowd -> Find Dumier -> Find DuClare -> Find Everett -> Find Savage -> Find Tiffany -> Find & kill Page.

Nearly every game plot line can be simplified in such a retarded way.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Nearly every game plot line can be simplified in such a retarded way.

No, only those that are actually simple and DX was simple. Your fanboyism has reached critical stage if you think that even plot in DX was par excellence.

 

[CyberP]

The writing quality, sub-plots and storytelling techniques are golden. The overall plot is one of the best in games also, campy-ness or not.

Edit: I'll tell you one of the solid areas where DX:HR is superior: weapon design. I'm not talking about the accuracy system as I like DX1's accuracy system and think it was a fruitful design decision, but in overall polish and attention to detail. Everything is mostly as it should be; nice audio design, few bugs, solid animations, they clearly put a lot of work into them to good results.
I've fixed countless retarded weapon bugs and added functionality that should have just been there in DX1 had they put more work into them, although this is more the result of Ion Storm's design philosophy: "Game developers should focus more on making detailed, deep stories than detailed guns" [paraphrasing]. Which I wholly disagree with mind you, ideally everything should be given your 100% or don't bother including it...but then DX wouldn't have been made the same with that mentality. And that's just not how professional game development works as there is much compromise and prioritizing because money.

My perfectionist mentality is appropriate for an extremely broad game like DX, and thankfully the overall story is one area where not much more work was needed per se. Fuck those horrible cutscenes though (intro/ending).

 

[Backstabber]

PST Plot: Find Pharod -> Find Ravel -> Find Trias -> Find the Pillar of Skulls -> Find Trias Again and Kill him -> Find TTO and kill him/merge with him