KickStarter Dead State Pre-Release Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Vault Dweller]

Or you guys believe that the STASIS guy is a multimillionaire entrepreneur for managing to create awesome atmospheric scenarios in his spare time, just for entertainment. Maybe that'd explain why DS's scenarios look like uninspired crap. If only they had a millionaire like him in the crew, right?

The "STASIS guy" is a truly brilliant artist. His visuals are the best I've seen in ANY game in 25 years and that's including IE games' handpainted backgrounds. So, bitching why other games don't look as good is like bitching why other composers aren't as good as Mozart.

 

[Infinitron]

STASIS guy (Pyke) has also said in the past, I think, that his techniques might not be suitable for this type of game. Too static.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Which was over a decade ago, and even then, 10 programmers is p. absurd.

Absurd or not, that's what it took. As for the "decade ago" statement, if you're implying that advances in computer science has made it possible for 1-2 men to do the work of 10, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[tuluse]

They should have had a systems designer as as stretch goal then.

Well there's only one competent one, and he was unavailable

 

[tuluse]

Ok, they had 10 programmers so this may be a silly question but, I'd ask what truly made JA2 an expensive title. Was it really the code of the combat system? It's a genuine question, I don't know the answer, though I'd bet this isn't really the case. What made it expensive is the fact that they had to make the game that'd encircle the system, all the assets and content, including of course the graphical content. DS already have all the audiovisual feedback, the other systems are already set in place (shelter management and so on) and the campaign itself (minus polishing and additional content, but still) is probably entirely planned already and its implementation is within NWN modding levels of skill, they just have to add it now.

I don't exactly what JA2's budget was. However, 10 programmers are going to cost about 1 million dollars per year. JA2 came out 4 years after Deadly Games. So, I bet they spent 4 million on programming alone (alone is not the right word to use here, since it includes expenses like office space).

 

[Infinitron]

Ok, they had 10 programmers so this may be a silly question but, I'd ask what truly made JA2 an expensive title. Was it really the code of the combat system? It's a genuine question, I don't know the answer, though I'd bet this isn't really the case. What made it expensive is the fact that they had to make the game that'd encircle the system, all the assets and content, including of course the graphical content. DS already have all the audiovisual feedback, the other systems are already set in place (shelter management and so on) and the campaign itself (minus polishing and additional content, but still) is probably entirely planned already and its implementation is within NWN modding levels of skill, they just have to add it now.

I don't exactly what JA2's budget was. However, 10 programmers are going to cost about 1 million dollars per year. JA2 came out 4 years after Deadly Games. So, I bet they spent 4 million on programming alone (alone is not the right word to use here, since it includes expenses like office space).

That's bad logic.

Even if JA2 did begin development immediately after JA1 was complete, which I doubt, they weren't using a full programming team for that entire period. Only during production.

 

[tuluse]

That's bad logic.

Even if JA2 did begin development immediately after JA1 was complete, which I doubt, they weren't using a full programming team for that entire period. Only during production.

Deadly Games was the spinoff sequel done right after JA1. It was done in about a year. I assuming that time was used a pre-production for JA2.

 

[Bubbles]

They should have had a systems designer as as stretch goal then.

Well there's only one competent one, and he was unavailable

Is he still working on Dungeon Lords updates?

 

[Excidium]

Which was over a decade ago, and even then, 10 programmers is p. absurd.

Absurd or not, that's what it took. As for the "decade ago" statement, if you're implying that advances in computer science has made it possible for 1-2 men to do the work of 10, you're sadly mistaken.

In a general sense no, but to develop a JA2-inspired game today? Certainly.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Then how do you explain the absence of such a game?

 

[set]

1-2 guys could do the work of 10, it's just a matter of time and what the base engine is already capable of

 

[Excidium]

Then how do you explain the absence of such a game?

Lack of interest. I sure as hell wouldn't want anything to do with something like that on my own time and expenses.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You'd rather bitch that nobody else is making them for you?

 

[Excidium]

Isn't that evident?

 

[mondblut]

They... had a story?

Yes? If you played them you could describe what you did and went through from the basic premise stabilished in the documents/start of the game to the final moments. The game provides the shit for you to do, you go and do that shit, that forms a story.

So does every single other game beyond the abstraction level of Tetris. How good are the stories of Doom or Pacman?

A story always exists, playing the game is experiencing the fucking story. You think story = something like super-scripted branching CYOA, which makes you look retarded as fuck.

I rest my case. Pacman and Doom have pretty swell videogame stories.

 

[Excidium]

They're p. simple, like the games themselves are. CRPGs allow for much more complex stuff.

 

[Roguey]

I finally remembered to tell this joke: Okay, I know Brian and Annie live in a state that legalized marijuana, but it's probably not the best idea to abbreviate "to-hit chance" as "THC." We're not drug-testing the zombies.

 

[Severian Silk]

Then how do you explain the absence of such a game?

Well that experiment (JAF) is currently underway at fullcontrol. Or however many people worked at coreplay for BIA/crossfire.

JAF is going to be a lot simpler. No strategic map with sectors to occupy or roaming army/militia IIRC.

 

[Severian Silk]

I finally remembered to tell this joke: Okay, I know Brian and Annie live in a state that legalized marijuana, but it's probably not the best idea to abbreviate "to-hit chance" as "THC." We're not drug-testing the zombies.

You need some THC.

 

[Lhynn]

Isn't that evident?

arent there a couple JA2 inspired games?

 

[Excidium]

There's a bunch of JA2 inspired shovelware.

 

[Pyke]

You guys give me way too much credit!

But as Infinitron said having 2D prerendered art is an entire different beast. You are very limited in what you can do with it in terms of having the world reflect your changes to it (something that is important in a game like Dead State).
There are other solutions when going 2D, like tile based solutions, or the 2D/3D hybrids that games like Pillars Of Eternity are managing, but even that has major limitations and are largely dealing with static areas that you exist in, rather than an environment that you can change.

But in all honesty, full 2D is MUCH more expensive in man power to create especially when dealing with huge open areas like this, and you would end up having to do some really 'awkward' tricks to get around the limitations. Tinting to get day night cycles for example, but that means that your day scenes cannot have strong shadows.

I love the 'hand crafted' feel of 2D art, and find some 3D games to be very 'sterile'. But really, if you are a small team creating a game where crafting and changing your environment is central to the game 3D outstrips 2D by a landslide.

edit: I haven't read this entire thread, and just skimmed the posts where I was mentioned. Sorry if anything I've said contributes nothing to the conversation!

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You guys give me way too much credit!

No.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

You guys give me way too much credit!

But as Infinitron said having 2D prerendered art is an entire different beast. You are very limited in what you can do with it in terms of having the world reflect your changes to it (something that is important in a game like Dead State).
There are other solutions when going 2D, like tile based solutions, or the 2D/3D hybrids that games like Pillars Of Eternity are managing, but even that has major limitations and are largely dealing with static areas that you exist in, rather than an environment that you can change.

But in all honesty, full 2D is MUCH more expensive in man power to create especially when dealing with huge open areas like this, and you would end up having to do some really 'awkward' tricks to get around the limitations. Tinting to get day night cycles for example, but that means that your day scenes cannot have strong shadows.

I love the 'hand crafted' feel of 2D art, and find some 3D games to be very 'sterile'. But really, if you are a small team creating a game where crafting and changing your environment is central to the game 3D outstrips 2D by a landslide.

edit: I haven't read this entire thread, and just skimmed the posts where I was mentioned. Sorry if anything I've said contributes nothing to the conversation!

Regarding day/night, could you not layer/overlay day touches like shadows etc while adding light glow in the night?

 

[Pyke]

Oh you could certainly do a lot of tricks to get certain effects. Separate shadow passes would probably be the easiest. So you would render your image without shadows, and then slowly 'fade' them in/out depending on what you wanted to do. Normal Maps are also very useful for faking 3D lighting (as in Pillars Of Eternity).

The biggest issues with 2D art isn't necessarily the amount of 'tricks' you can use to get things done (they have been around for a lot longer than 3D!), but A) The extra amount of additional assets you need to do these tricks, and B) The skills of the individual artists.

It is also very difficult to alter content once its done in 2D - a LOT more difficult than in a 3D engine.

You also have the ability to spread your skills across your artists.
In a 3D game you could have an incredibly skilled artist making 3D Assets, and pass them onto other artists who arent necessarily up to that same level. Those artists can then use those assets and create a piece of work that is probably very close to what the original artist would have done (at least from a visual standpoint). You have the freedom of using people who are actual level designers/gameplay programmers able to adjust art and environments 'on the fly' while they work, making the game feel a lot tighter.

Again, the solution to this is a tile based system, but then you are limited in being able to do physics simulations. A 2D/3D hybrid is the best solution. This is a gameplay demo of The Whispered World 2 where they are using a 2D/3D hybrid solution of camera projection, 2D painted areas and 3D models.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqO5lmK1zK0

So it CAN be done - but it requires a huge input from your artists who require multiple specialities across the board.

I will ALWAYS do 2D Artwork because its my preferred medium - but I would never do the kind of game they are attempting with Dead State! Now a Fallout style game...that can be done.. :D