Development Info David Gaider on settings culture & history

[Vault Dweller]

Don't get so upset, Volly, it's never too late to learn to read and comprehend simultaneously.

 

[crufty]

yeah, I think a word count would make much more sense if it counted the biggest "path" through the dialogue tree. Why would a publisher care that there is 1000 total words in an NPC if any given character will only see 200 of them? Only reason I can think of is localization costs, but those can't be that big

Localization costs could be it. Maybe more words means more test time?

I've often thought that maybe it's just that a lot of people find it hard to read a lot of text on the screen.

Maybe it's presentation. If our monitors were all > 768 x 1024 (ie high res & rotated 90 degrees), we would see more onscreen text. As it stands, if you are supporting 640 x 480, imagine paging thru 1000 words @ that level. I know I find it very difficult to read in-game books as it is, even though I enjoy the atmosphere of having them there.

Reminds me of Dragon Wars / Wasteland, with the paragraphs, and the fake paragraphs thrown in for good measure.

Maybe a better solution would be to have the books read to you? That would be cool. Espicially if they were read by James Earl Jones.

 

[Volourn]

"Don't get so upset, Volly"

Who's upset? I'm just factually pointing out SP's idiocy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You'd have to do something better then a one-liner then. I know it's a novelty concept for you to explain your position (don't confuse with repeating it many times), use some facts, links, etc; but give it a try, will ya?

 

[Volourn]

Huh? My post was about the same length as SP's little "jab" at me. He went "Oh tag" and I went 'You're stupid". Seems a fair trade to me. :D

As for what Dave said, heck, he agreed in so many words that you *did* take his itnital post out of context.

Afterall: "True, I didn't think that particular quote supported VD's thoughts" shows that in clearity. All he said, is he understands what you got your other retardedness from. Understanding does not = agreeing.

ie. I understand why you are willing to twist what a BIOweenie says to "win which is your biasness against them; but I don't agree with taking what they say out of context. See?

That is (not) all. :twisted:

 

[Sol Invictus]

Eleven! Eleven! Eleven!

Reminds me of that shitty Corin Nemec movie.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

How about moving on.

 

[Volourn]

With trolling like yours; there's no need to.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

OMG a funnay! Har har har!

Uh, yeah. Next =>

 

[Vault Dweller]

Afterall: "True, I didn't think that particular quote supported VD's thoughts" shows that in clearity. All he said, is he understands what you got your other retardedness from. Understanding does not = agreeing.

Retardedness, huh? You ran out of the existing words and start making up your own? Sounds cool. Anyway, I don't think that "wrong quote" means "quote out of context", but I'm probably just biased.

ie. I understand why you are willing to twist what a BIOweenie says to "win which is your biasness against them; but I don't agree with taking what they say out of context. See?

No, no see. Since there are examples that prove my point, the quote is NOT taken out of context. Deal with it.

That is (not) all. :twisted:

You've got that right. It's not all and it's not over. You hear me, NOT OVAR!!! MWAHAHAHA!

 

[Vault Dweller]

My apologies on the Todd Howard quote, I do wear glasses...

Well, in that case, I apologize as well. My remark came off unnecessary rude.

 

[Volourn]

"start making up your own?"

Start? I've been doing it for years. Nothing wrong with it since, obviously, someone has to be responsible for creating words or else we wouldn't be able to write 'em.


"the quote is NOT taken out of context."

Yes, it is. Period. The quote in question was discussing imparting DA history in dialogue and youd ecide to bring up how BIO dialogue has no (but it does) multiple solutions. You are wrong AND you are out of context. Game over.


"You hear me, NOT OVAR!!!"

Just. Bring. It.


"I apologize"

Wuss.

 

[Avin]

sheeeeeeeeez, role player, you've said "caralho"!!!

 

[Vault Dweller]

"start making up your own?"

Start? I've been doing it for years. Nothing wrong with it since, obviously, someone has to be responsible for creating words or else we wouldn't be able to write 'em.

Mankind is forever in your debt. I can picture a hall of fame where people can look at the names of the great ones and read about their contributions, like Prometheus who gave people fire, Becquerel who discovered radioactivity, and Volourn the troll who gave people R00flies, retardedness, spy alphabet for dummies ( thi sis ase kret mess age ), etc

"the quote is NOT taken out of context."

Yes, it is. Period. The quote in question was discussing imparting DA history in dialogue and youd ecide to bring up how BIO dialogue has no (but it does) multiple solutions. You are wrong AND you are out of context. Game over.

So, the fact that one design principle can be successfully used in different games for different reasons (introduce DA history, explain why you hafta go to the BG Asylum, tell about KOTOR's Jedi, etc) have completely escaped you? How embarrassing for you.

"I apologize"

Wuss.

I called a dude who wears glasses a blind ...uh... person. Tell me there is something good left in you

 

[Volourn]

"Mankind is forever in your debt.'

If this were true, I wouldn't be in debt myself...


"So, the fact that one design principle can be successfully used in different games for different reasons"

Not once did he even hint that dialogue could have more uses than just emaprting world history. not once did he say that it could btoh empart history and have actual variant outcomes in the dialogue. Nice try.


"Tell me there is something good left in you"

There was never any good in me, and any chance of there ever being any good in me was terminated by the 'net.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Mankind is forever in your debt.'

If this were true, I wouldn't be in debt myself...

Well, it's one of those meaningless full of shit phrases, that indicate that mankind is too cheap to pay, but can offer you a good deal on a commemorative plaque. :wink:

"So, the fact that one design principle can be successfully used in different games for different reasons"

Not once did he even hint that dialogue could have more uses than just emaprting world history. not once did he say that it could btoh empart history and have actual variant outcomes in the dialogue. Nice try.

Well, it's kinda hard to "btoh empart" (whatever the fuck that is) history and have actual variant outcomes:

DA Religious Figure (RF): Of course this trouble with the X faction is nothing new, as I'm certain you're aware.
PC response 1: Yeah, totally aware, I read it in a book or something.
RF: Well, that's nice, here is a cookie
.............................
RF: Of course this trouble with the X faction is nothing new, as I'm certain you're aware.
PC response 2: You arseholes were asking for it.
RF: why you little..... here, have a cookie, I hope you choke on it.
.............................
RF: Of course this trouble with the X faction is nothing new, as I'm certain you're aware.
PC response 3: I have an idea, let's waste the motherfuckers!
RF: Yes, yes, yes, waste, kill'em all! ... but not today. Maybe tomorrow, or next month, or the month after. Have a cookie for now.

"Tell me there is something good left in you"

There was never any good in me, and any chance of there ever being any good in me was terminated by the 'net.

Yeah, the 'net... Kids get exposed to everything so early these days. One wrong thing and it fucks them for life. Like NWN crappy modules....

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

sheeeeeeeeez, role player, you've said "caralho"!!!

Well, technically it wasn't me It's a quote from a Brazillian movie, A Cidade de Deus (City of God). If you haven't seen it yet, I recommend it - you can find more info on it clicking on my sig

 

[Avin]

RP, check my location... I saw this movie on theater when it was launched... best brazilian movie ever.

In fact movies are getting better here in braSil for some time

btw: vocês falam "caralho" aí em portugal também ou é coisa brasileira mesmo?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

RP, check my location... I saw this movie on theater when it was launched... best brazilian movie ever.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that Hehe. Well, yeah, the movie does rock. I only saw it a few days ago, though. I was swept away.

btw: vocês falam "caralho" aí em portugal também ou é coisa brasileira mesmo?

Nah, aqui também dizemos isso. Até dizemos demais

 

[RGE]

Unless the weapons are incredibly dull in terms of complexity, there's no good way to tell which weapon is better for the player unless it's just plain obvious. If they follow the Diablo style weapons where a weapon can affect a number of the character's abilities, it's just damned hard for a generic algorhythm to say THIS IS THE BEST WEAPON.

I think one algorithm could check how fast the character can attack with the weapon and how accurate they are, and thus how much damage they'd do (on average) per time unit. That's how I did it in Diablo 2, usually by checking attack speed with a stopwatch because the speed enhancements affected the attack speed in a somewhat unpredictable fashion. But there's no reason for the game to not be able to keep track of the end result, because it does appear in the game itself. Every time a character attacks all the would-be numbers in that algorithm would be used.

I'll agree that weapon properties that don't affect damage or speed might be difficult to put a number on, but perhaps those properties could be ignored, thereby letting the player decide how they should be valued.

It's just better to have the player do a little spreadsheeting than to offer a simple number score on how great the item is.

While spreadsheeting can be a fun metagame, I don't see why a game like Dungeon Siege 2 wouldn't bend over backwards to facilitate things for the player. Not that I have ever played the first game, but I assume that the people who like Dungeon Siege would enjoy some help with valuing their loot.

Besides, if you want one score that does that, it's usually the price of the item in most games, right?

I have yet to see a game where prices are properly balanced to the effectiveness of the weapon. It's easy to not buy horribly overpriced pieces of crap, but I still see them in a lot of games. Maybe if the weapons were "incredibly dull in terms of complexity" the price could show how good a weapon is, but once you start to introduce different weapon properties you'll end up with overpriced crap whenever you combine two properties that don't work well with each other.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I like spreadsheeting over some dumb score about how good a weapon is, because systems that have used 'scoring' mechanisms for weapons like that, I have always found to be innacurate. Your dextrous rogue is certainly not going to find that high scoring Big Sword as useful as a Strong Bow which may not have as high a score as the Big Sword. Statistics are important and it is pointless to keep them hidden.

As far as I know, Dungeon Siege 2 is not going to feature a scoring system and retains spreadsheeting. All it does is show an arrow button to indicate whether the weapon you are trying to equip is an upgrade over the one you are currently using, or a downgrade - in its various specifications. e.g. If you have a dagger doing 2-4 damage equipped with a very fast attack speed, the tooltip over the Longsword might indicate an 'up' arrow in the Damage rating (Longsword does 3-6) and a 'down' arrow in the speed section (Longsword is only "fast").

I don't mind it, personally. I think it saves a lot of time hovering over your weapons to check their properties.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'll agree that weapon properties that don't affect damage or speed might be difficult to put a number on, but perhaps those properties could be ignored, thereby letting the player decide how they should be valued.

That's the problem with them. In games like Dungeon Siege and Diablo, you do have weapons with all those extra stat modifiers all over the place. If you decide to just up and ignore them, you're not actually saying whether or not said weapon is actually better - even though that score might claim it is. You've either got to make the loot less complex to where the algorhythm can actually tell easily what weapon is better or you're going to have a scoring system that really doesn't work. It's much better for the player to actually use his head for something other than a hat rack in that case.

 

[RGE]

It's much better for the player to actually use his head for something other than a hat rack in that case.

I don't see how a little help is going to prevent or disallow the player from thinking and making their own decisions. In Diablo 2 I would have welcomed a stat which listed the average damage per time unit that my character would do with the weapon. The world is not black and white. Some help is usually better than no help, at least when the player gets all the stats and has to make the final decision. Hopefully they'll realize the limits of their evaluation and not have the arrows include properties which are impossible to properly evaluate. But the base properties could still be evaluated this way. Maybe put an extra symbol next to the arrow if a weapon has properties which can't be evaluated by the algorithm?

 

[Reklar]

That's how I did it in Diablo 2, usually by checking attack speed with a stopwatch because the speed enhancements affected the attack speed in a somewhat unpredictable fashion.

This sentence makes me cringe. Does everyone do this, and I'm the exception who doesn't care enough about statistics to get that serious? I have yet to find a game where I had to be so intent on statistical comparisons that it required the use of a stopwatch, or any other device for that matter. No insult is intended, RGE, but I do find this noted behavior somewhat over the top (power-gaming?) for playing a game.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Sol Invictus]

I did that a lot, Reklar. RGE isn't the only one. I would calculate my stats for hours before I started any of my characters and create plans to decide when to take certain skills and abilities in order to maximize my damage, armor, or health at that level. I would write down sets of choice equipment, with rankings, to boot. Having the Guardian Angel armor would be better than having Skullder's Ire, for example - though I would use Skullder's Ire as a secondary choice.

It got even more complex with the elemental classes like the Amazon and the Paladin who uses Vengeance as his main attack. Certain types of equipment would give your character a powerful boost in terms of elemental damage, and you would often have a choice between a weapon like Baranar's Star which had multiple elements, or something else that might only have ice damage, but also add +2 seconds to freeze time. Decisions decisions.