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Game News Colony Ship RPG Update #1: Setting, Character System

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I'm looking forward to this game. RPGs with sci-fi settings are always welcome, especially proper RPGs.

With that said, I can segue directly into the important business of being an asshole: Some of you people need to crack open a God damned sci-fi novel every once in a while. You don't know what a generation ship is? Come on. Come on, guys. Pfffft, I bet you don't know what a Dyson sphere or an ansible is, either. In the realm of sci-fi novels, generation ships are a familiar and fairly standard premise.

Any idiot can read sci-fi novels, so just go on and do it. Larry Niven is a good choice for sensibly written but "exotic" sci-fi (example: The Integral Trees, about human-like creatures living on and in giant orbital trees that have particular life cycles and maneuver by spraying sap geysers). Actually, get a few copies of The Year's Best Science Fiction (preferably from the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s) anthologies by Gardner Dozois.
 

DSW

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Nov 13, 2006
Messages
34
It is not viable option from the beginning. It is not correspond to the concept of the game and how psychologists would tune colonist to perceive their goal. People on board are already colonists, which already has a colony on the ship. They are not adventures, which goal to reach the Final Frontier.
But the Frontier isn't reached yet. The colony isn't established and the flight will takes hundreds of years, which requires very strict laws defining almost every aspect of your life. The first and second generations will blindly follow the laws, the third generation will be a lot less excited about being stuck on the ship and forced to follow these laws.

Colonists have nothing to sacrifice. Their dream comes true as they stepped on the board.
Their dream does come true, but not their descendants' dream who "didn't ask for it".
Problems a-la "didn't ask for it" and "less excited about being stuck" are artificially exaggerated. These problems are already exist on another colony ship, which we mistakenly call the planet Earth. Nobody on the Earth "did ask" or "free to escape". Therefore, some minority constantly commit suicide because they didn't ask to be born, because they didn't managed to find friends or meaningful activities, or whatever. Yes, it is a problem with such people. This problem should be addressed to psychologists. I believe that this problem could be bigger on Colony ship, compare it to Earth. But it would never be game breaking. Because game state can be broken by motivated people, those who already accepted that they are born at certain place in certain time. "didn't ask for it" people do not make mutiny, because it has no meaning for it - after mutiny they still cannot step out from the board, but commit suicide. However, those, who accepted their being on ship, can start the mutiny, but not with "didn't ask for it" excuse. I see that problem "didn't ask for it" is not something inherent to Colony Ship only. It is common thing for the everyday life on Earth and already has approaches to reduce it to accepted level. Here is no place to explore and introduce something new.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Problems a-la "didn't ask for it" and "less excited about being stuck" are artificially exaggerated. These problems are already exist on another colony ship, which we mistakenly call the planet Earth. Nobody on the Earth "did ask" or "free to escape". Therefore, some minority constantly commit suicide because they didn't ask to be born, because they didn't managed to find friends or meaningful activities, or whatever. Yes, it is a problem with such people. This problem should be addressed to psychologists.
It's not the same at all. Here (well, in the western world at least) you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want. Sure, some people can't fit in but that's very different from entire generations growing up in a totalitarian environment where all key choices have already been made for them by their ancestors and they must stay on course charted for them by someone else.

I believe that this problem could be bigger on Colony ship, compare it to Earth. But it would never be game breaking. Because game state can be broken by motivated people, those who already accepted that they are born at certain place in certain time. "didn't ask for it" people do not make mutiny, because it has no meaning for it - after mutiny they still cannot step out from the board, but commit suicide. However, those, who accepted their being on ship, can start the mutiny, but not with "didn't ask for it" excuse. I see that problem "didn't ask for it" is not something inherent to Colony Ship only. It is common thing for the everyday life on Earth and already has approaches to reduce it to accepted level. Here is no place to explore and introduce something new.
Look up 'revolution' when you have a moment.
 

Tigranes

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Messages
10,350
DSW Basically everything that contradicts your theory is just a "minor" factor, but you never explain why it's "minor". The comparison with Earth is nonsense, since the Earth already contains plenty of 'outsides' as you like to call them, i.e. different environments / circumstances of living. When people on Earth do feel that they are stuck in slavery, Siberia, whatever, with no reasonable hope of an outside, what do you get? Yeah, that's right. Revolutions.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Are you going to rename this game "WCDS in Spaaaaaace!" when it's closer to release time?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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tr.gif
 

Howdy

Guest
I was idly reading this article, with no particular interest, about some Korean MMO, whenl this system was mentioned.

Just about every non-player character in the game has some opinion of you that you can influence by engaging them in conversation using the tidbits of knowledge you’ve picked up on your journeys. But not every character will care about what you have to say, so finding the right topics of interest is a hunt in itself.

That particular mini-game can be confusing — a problem made worse by Black Desert Online’s unwillingness to explain how everything works — but once you understand its quirks it can be a fun distraction, running around town trying to win everyone’s affections. It’s not nearly as silly as The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion’s conversation system, where you’d take turns insulting and complimenting a character in rapid succession until they’re likely so confused they submit and spill all their sweet secrets just to get the whole awkward affair over with.

Instead, each round of the game has a different objective that you must achieve by deploying your topics of knowledge in a specific order. There’s an element of random chance that can make the whole affair feel more like a card game, what with each topic having its own stats that impact your overall chance of success. If you succeed, you can double down and make the character like you even more, but if you fail to grab their interest with your conversational arts they’ll lose any affinity they had gathered for you during that conversation.

What I really enjoy is that the point of all of this is that characters in Black Desert aren’t always willing to spill all their secrets to you just because you’re the hero, and they feel far more fleshed out than the window dressing NPCs you’ll see in other games. Many of the quests in the game can only be unlocked once you’ve earned the respect of the quest giver. Beyond that, characters might also have their own knowledge to share, a unique special item they’d be willing to loan you, or might even allow you to purchase rare goods once they like you enough.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/02/03/black-desert-online-preview/#more-345205

It sound's like a dialogue system that would work in a game like this, with no ally faction, and such a relatively contained social structure. Most charismatic people would have a reputation across the whole ship, and legends would pass around quickly, meaning you could increase your overall reputation and traits in a time frame that actually makes sense in a crpg for a change.
 

Tigranes

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Messages
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I think Gamma's suggestion works best when it isn't systematised into a structured minigame, but when it becomes a general principle for writing dialogue. Lady Lorenza already did this in AOD: you had to pay attention not just to what she tells you, but what you learn about her from other NPCs, and actually use your brain about her position relative to the political intrigue that you're mired in. So you're thinking about who is this NPC in the gameworld? Why is my PC talking to her now? What can I impress her with, what kind of attitude, rather than "what facts do I know"? It was brilliant, though I imagine having more Lorenzas would cause immense butthurt (hurr durr I dunno how to win her over) because people are so used to discrete triggers (have item / have talked to X = win convo). But I'd love Lorenza-like approach especially to key NPCs.
 

Howdy

Guest
I think Gamma's suggestion works best when it isn't systematised into a structured minigame, but when it becomes a general principle for writing dialogue. Lady Lorenza already did this in AOD: you had to pay attention not just to what she tells you, but what you learn about her from other NPCs, and actually use your brain about her position relative to the political intrigue that you're mired in. So you're thinking about who is this NPC in the gameworld? Why is my PC talking to her now? What can I impress her with, what kind of attitude, rather than "what facts do I know"? It was brilliant, though I imagine having more Lorenzas would cause immense butthurt (hurr durr I dunno how to win her over) because people are so used to discrete triggers (have item / have talked to X = win convo). But I'd love Lorenza-like approach especially to key NPCs.

I agree. The mini-game aspects don't interest me, more the accumulation then use of knowledge and/or reputation in opening up quest lines or furthering your knowledge (through dialogue) of other NPC's and factions, in order to solve future interactions. That's all a very dry way of saying the dialogue checks can be what you know rather than what you can do, apart from the 'killing stuff' moments. Leave what you can do for CYOA sections. Obviously, rampant meta-gaming would ensue though.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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I think Gamma's suggestion works best when it isn't systematised into a structured minigame, but when it becomes a general principle for writing dialogue. Lady Lorenza already did this in AOD: you had to pay attention not just to what she tells you, but what you learn about her from other NPCs, and actually use your brain about her position relative to the political intrigue that you're mired in. So you're thinking about who is this NPC in the gameworld? Why is my PC talking to her now? What can I impress her with, what kind of attitude, rather than "what facts do I know"? It was brilliant, though I imagine having more Lorenzas would cause immense butthurt (hurr durr I dunno how to win her over) because people are so used to discrete triggers (have item / have talked to X = win convo). But I'd love Lorenza-like approach especially to key NPCs.
That's the plan (for the key NPCs).
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I'm glad your game has Irendesu's stamp of approval! You must be so proud.
 

DSW

Novice
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
34
Problems a-la "didn't ask for it" and "less excited about being stuck" are artificially exaggerated. These problems are already exist on another colony ship, which we mistakenly call the planet Earth. Nobody on the Earth "did ask" or "free to escape". Therefore, some minority constantly commit suicide because they didn't ask to be born, because they didn't managed to find friends or meaningful activities, or whatever. Yes, it is a problem with such people. This problem should be addressed to psychologists.
It's not the same at all. Here (well, in the western world at least) you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want. Sure, some people can't fit in but that's very different from entire generations growing up in a totalitarian environment where all key choices have already been made for them by their ancestors and they must stay on course charted for them by someone else.

I believe that this problem could be bigger on Colony ship, compare it to Earth. But it would never be game breaking. Because game state can be broken by motivated people, those who already accepted that they are born at certain place in certain time. "didn't ask for it" people do not make mutiny, because it has no meaning for it - after mutiny they still cannot step out from the board, but commit suicide. However, those, who accepted their being on ship, can start the mutiny, but not with "didn't ask for it" excuse. I see that problem "didn't ask for it" is not something inherent to Colony Ship only. It is common thing for the everyday life on Earth and already has approaches to reduce it to accepted level. Here is no place to explore and introduce something new.
Look up 'revolution' when you have a moment.

It is the same, and I will show how it is the same, but you need to stop talking with slogans and get out of Earth-centric thinking, since you are doing Colony Ship game.
Slogans "you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want" hide away that you already assumed that I am NOT FREE to do
1) Something what is not bound to Earth environment, kind of "romance a black minotaur mutant or alien".
2) Something what is not bound to human capabilities, kind of "let everybody disappears, and I will be the only one on the Earth. May be I will take my girlfriend too."
3) Something what is not bound to traditions, laws and moral, kind of "let me have seven wives, and I will exploit them for my pleasures openly".

I mean, that not "some people can't fit", but half of civilized humankind can fit. All western men lives with urgent need to fuck everything moving, but they never started a revolution on such premise. Instead, they are trying to fit "traditions, laws and moral" and use alternative, non-revolutionary approaches to satisfy their needs. Western men jerks, fuck whores, lovers and other objects for centuries without starting any revolution. Here I want to hear that it is not true that all men want have seven wives, and exploit them for their pleasures. I knew, "sure, some people can't fit" and two wifes is enough for them. Does it your choice to have one wife? When it was done for you? Why you are still stay on course charted for you by someone else? How did you manage to fit it?
In addition, nobody started revolution because of lack of minotaures, aliens or because of other people existence.

I provided you with these examples, because I see that it is you, who have to look up "revolution". All revolutions have economically bounded reasons. Revolutions starts because of urgent need to redistribute power, which arisen from new resources held by new group or a kind. People itself, their dreams, upsets and misery can live forever without revolution. If you are not going to show pre-revolution state of power and resource distribution, followed by new group of new resource holders aroused and urging new way of power distribution on the ship then, please, never touch the word "revolution", stick with "mutiny". Revolutions have fundamental change paired with an open break with the previous state. Moreover, Colony Ship is the last place where you can find possibility for this.

Anyway, I would ask you to apply your earthlike way of thinking about "you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want" the same way to the Colony Ship. You should not allow colonist to dream about non-ship environment, as if you striped away non-Earth environment from Earthman freedoms. You should not allow colonist dream about living on Earth since in out of their capabilities to bring themselves to Earth. You should not allow colonists start revolution because they just want to have something. Let them fit their environment, let them fill all shitholes like Eskimos live in Alaska and even do not migrate to Florida for "you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want" premise.

If you want to explore people living on Colony Ship then let these people to fit its environment first, fill all niches imaginable; find alternative ways to satisfy their needs. Exploration of fitting their environment should go as deep as you could find examples on Earth. Otherwise, “Revolution!” is just buzzword for getting lulz because it cool to have revolutions and guns.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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It was brilliant, though I imagine having more Lorenzas would cause immense butthurt (hurr durr I dunno how to win her over).

I tried to get her into bed, but she doesn’t “sleep with the help”. That is worse than one thousand death screens.

:negative:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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It is the same, and I will show how it is the same, but you need to stop talking with slogans and get out of Earth-centric thinking, since you are doing Colony Ship game.
Slogans "you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want" hide away that you already assumed that I am NOT FREE to do
1) Something what is not bound to Earth environment, kind of "romance a black minotaur mutant or alien".
2) Something what is not bound to human capabilities, kind of "let everybody disappears, and I will be the only one on the Earth. May be I will take my girlfriend too."
3) Something what is not bound to traditions, laws and moral, kind of "let me have seven wives, and I will exploit them for my pleasures openly".
If you're trolling, well done. If you do mean it, here is the answer:

All societies have laws that restrict the absolute freedom (which thus doesn't exist) but these laws differ greatly, creating different levels of pressure. Just because you can't have seven wives or become the last man on Earth doesn't mean that you're suffering as much as some poor bastard in North Korea or a man accused on breaking the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

All western men lives with urgent need to fuck everything moving, but they never started a revolution on such premise. Instead, they are trying to fit "traditions, laws and moral" and use alternative, non-revolutionary approaches to satisfy their needs. Western men jerks, fuck whores, lovers and other objects for centuries without starting any revolution. Here I want to hear that it is not true that all men want have seven wives, and exploit them for their pleasures.
:notsureifserious:
 

DSW

Novice
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
34
It is the same, and I will show how it is the same, but you need to stop talking with slogans and get out of Earth-centric thinking, since you are doing Colony Ship game.
Slogans "you're free to do whatever you want, build whatever you want, live the way you want" hide away that you already assumed that I am NOT FREE to do
1) Something what is not bound to Earth environment, kind of "romance a black minotaur mutant or alien".
2) Something what is not bound to human capabilities, kind of "let everybody disappears, and I will be the only one on the Earth. May be I will take my girlfriend too."
3) Something what is not bound to traditions, laws and moral, kind of "let me have seven wives, and I will exploit them for my pleasures openly".
If you're trolling, well done. If you do mean it, here is the answer:

All societies have laws that restrict the absolute freedom (which thus doesn't exist) but these laws differ greatly, creating different levels of pressure. Just because you can't have seven wives or become the last man on Earth doesn't mean that you're suffering as much as some poor bastard in North Korea or a man accused on breaking the blasphemy law in Pakistan.
Yes, and what is the level of colonists' suffering? They are not fed enough like in N.Korea? Jailed like in Pakistan? Executed like in Saudi Arabia? Is there Gulag on Colony Ship?

I gave you all my examples to show you that not all discontent ends up with mutiny and revolutions. There is not enough "we didn't ask for it" or "we want to be a unicorns, not hydroponic farmers" to start a revolt.

Anyway, it is you, who decided to make a game about people within closed facility and with restrictions on their freedom. Similarity with prison is obvious. Instead of developing technological, social and space exploration divisions within the game, you took design decisions to increase prison resemblance - cargo ship instead of bright new colony ship, mutiny instead of futuristic technology or social breakdown, firearms, which we can find in modern prison, instead of futuristic. What is the reason of such down-to-prison design decisions? Is it real Colony Ship? Or some weird correctional facility experiment?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Yes, and what is the level of colonists' suffering? They are not fed enough like in N.Korea? Jailed like in Pakistan? Executed like in Saudi Arabia? Is there Gulag on Colony Ship?
It's all in the update.

I gave you all my examples to show you that not all discontent ends up with mutiny and revolutions.
I've never claimed that ALL discontent ends up in mutiny and revolutions because not all discontent is created equal.

Anyway, it is you, who decided to make a game about people within closed facility and with restrictions on their freedom. Similarity with prison is obvious. Instead of developing technological, social and space exploration divisions within the game, you took design decisions to increase prison resemblance - cargo ship instead of bright new colony ship, mutiny instead of futuristic technology or social breakdown, firearms, which we can find in modern prison, instead of futuristic. What is the reason of such down-to-prison design decisions? Is it real Colony Ship? Or some weird correctional facility experiment?
Because that's not how such things are done. Again:

"By 1620, the Mayflower was an aging ship, nearing the end of the usual working life of an English merchant ship in that era, some 15 years..."

Why? Because these things cost money. Why waste money on a bright new ship when an aging merchant ship will do?
 

DSW

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Messages
34
Because that's not how such things are done. Again:

"By 1620, the Mayflower was an aging ship, nearing the end of the usual working life of an English merchant ship in that era, some 15 years..."

Why? Because these things cost money. Why waste money on a bright new ship when an aging merchant ship will do?

It is mechanical copy pasting. And it is wrong. Again:
Colony ship is a colony, it is already colonists' destination for hundreds of years, it serves all the time as a colony too, not just transport. Mayflower was not a colony, it was not colonists' destination, it not served as a colony, but transport only.
In other words, Colony ship is America for many generations of colonists. This is correct design of a Generation colony ship. It can not reduced to transport ship like Mayflower.

You should not design a Generation colony ship assuming that it is just a temporary transport mean in the way to Final Frontier. You should design it like a permanent place of life for many generations.
 
Last edited:

Tigranes

Arcane
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Messages
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Because that's not how such things are done. Again:

"By 1620, the Mayflower was an aging ship, nearing the end of the usual working life of an English merchant ship in that era, some 15 years..."

Why? Because these things cost money. Why waste money on a bright new ship when an aging merchant ship will do?

It is mechanical copy pasting. And it is wrong. Again:
Colony ship is a colony, it is already colonists' destination for hundreds of years, it serves all the time as a colony too, not just transport. Mayflower was not a colony, it was not colonists' destination, it not served as a colony, but transport only.
In other words, Colony ship is America for many generations of colonists. This is correct design of a Generation colony ship. It can not reduced to transport ship like Mayflower.

You should not design a Generation colony ship assuming that it is just a temporary transport mean in the way to Final Frontier. You should design it like a permanent place of life for many generations.

This bit I actually think is an interesting point, which should be factored into the lore about the initial takeoff.

All the other stuff seems to be some kind of weird grand theory about mutinies and revolutions and human society that this planet has never heard of.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
The ship is not a colony. It's a bunch of people on the move, no different than the Westward Migration. These people aren't building a colony, in fact they aren't building anything, but ensure that when the ship arrives their descendants will be ready.
 

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