Battle Brothers Pre-Release Thread

[vonAchdorf]

It's not just having an end-goal to work towards, but there being some sort of climax that has build up preceding it so that you get satisfaction out of achieving said goal. Paradox games don't end, they peter out. They don't have a proper ending that the game builds towards, but a point at which you get bored and stop playing the game. Similarly, retirement goals aren't real endings either unless you craft different scenarios for them that influence how the game-world works – taking revenge on a faction makes little sense and is boring if they play no role of note in the world, leave you alone and end up getting wiped out by someone else.

In a game that resolves around tactical combat, there needs to be a fitting rise in challenge and threat escalation for the ending itself to be meaningful to the player. This was nicely doable with the Greater Evil approach because the enemies rise in power made sense within the context of the game (Orc hordes unifying, resulting in them going from local to national threats) and their defeat made sense as both a climax (the enemy has been beaten at their absolute peak) and a point from which the player could continue should they choose to (the enemy has been scattered, but not eradicated). That's why I'm curious about whether they have something else in mind as the climax now that they've moved away from that and towards a game where there is more of an ebb and flow to the world.

That's a valid reason for the encroaching greater evil.

I liked the Pirates! approach of an overall goal in a living (for 1987) world, which was also interesting, because you became (physical) less capable in the end game. In a tactical game with a constant supply of new recruits, it's of course different thing.

 

[Lucky]

That's a valid reason for the encroaching greater evil.

I liked the Pirates! approach of an overall goal in a living (for 1987) world, which was also interesting, because you became (physical) less capable in the end game. In a tactical game with a constant supply of new recruits, it's of course different thing.

Plus Pirates! was always more of a personal journey, which made aging work well as the captain embodied the player's actions. Your crew was really just a number and you weren't meant to think about them too much. Battle Brothers, so far, is closer to X-COM in terms of gameflow and how the player's attachment to their recruits affects what kind of endings will and won't work.

 

[Agesilaus]

Post your biggest ghouls:

This monster spent at least 10 rounds binge eating corpses.

Another iron-man game ends in tears.

 

[rapsdjff]

Some good points. We're currently leaning towards a variety of ambitions for the player to choose one way or another as their personal end game goal. These ambitions may be linked to another feature shaping worldmap gameplay, but until we're sure whether or not it'll make it into the game, it's unfortunately still a bit vague even for us.

That aside, more of a gradual rise in challenge and threat escalation is something the game really needs in general. While on one hand it's nice that the world doesn't artificially scale to the player's level and thereby cheapen the experience of growing stronger, it can also be frustrating to randomly lose games because of enemies you can neither beat nor escape from in the beginning with no fault of your own. At the same time, it's easy to run out of challenges in the late game because you outscale the challenges that remain more or less on the same level all throughout the game.

To address this, we'll now anchor the contracts offered (which will play a more important role than they do currently, more on this later) around the player's renown/reputation so that different and more challenging ones get unlocked as the game progresses, and have them be more explicit about the type of challenge you're likely to face. So while the world as a whole still won't scale to the player's level, this way of interacting with the world will for a more gradual progression in challenge. It'll start a bit more low key than now and then scale higher for an appropriate end game climax.

 

[Lhynn]

To address this, we'll now anchor the contracts offered (which will play a more important role than they do currently, more on this later) around the player's renown/reputation so that different and more challenging ones get unlocked as the game progresses, and have them be more explicit about the type of challenge you're likely to face. So while the world as a whole still won't scale to the player's level, this way of interacting with the world will for a more gradual progression in challenge. It'll start a bit more low key than now and then scale higher for an appropriate end game climax.

Have you thought on merely having the player start on a low threat region? with easier contracts and not a dangerous wild life, and letting him adventure out of this area at his own pace.

 

[rapsdjff]

Yes in the sense that we'll now distinguish more between densely populated regions of relative safety (where bad things can still happen but you aren't likely to run into a random orc raiding party), the more unpredictable and potentially dangerous regions surrounding outlying settlements, and finally wilderness.

Also, this week's update:

Dev Blog #59: Progress Update – Standard Bearers & Knights
Work on factions in the world of Battle Brothers continues and ties into the tactical combat part of the game this week, as noble houses get lots of nifty stuff to wear and get their own identity on the battlefield. Also, work on new contract mechanics has started. Let’s take a closer look!

What’s been happening?
Like with all opponents in the game (and in this case, allies as well) we want noble houses to have an identity of their own and pose a unique challenge on the battlefield, to require different tactics from beating, say, orcs or bandits. To this end, noble houses will have access to equipment not otherwise available and make use of skills and tactics that differentiate them especially from other human opponents. We’ll cover all the units available to them in detail with their lore at a later point, but for now, here is a preview of what is to come.



Noble houses make use of standard bearers with any full company. Not only do they look impressive and give a sense of organized and regimental warfare lacking with other opponents, they passively raise the morale and will to fight of nearby troops. In addition, they can make use of the ‘Rally’ skill, just like the player can – blowing a horn to push their comrades to go the extra mile.

The single most dangerous individual unit employed by noble houses is the knight. A man of noble birth, trained from youth in the use of weapons and warfare, steeled in experience by combat and attending tourneys across the land. Their station affords them the best equipment available, and their helms may be adorned with ridiculously intricate decoration that picks up themes of the noble house they serve. This decoration is in fact based on what knights have historically worn – although, while in reality this was usually limited to parades and tourneys, we took the artistic license of making it a custom for knights to display their station and grandeur in this way in the world of Battle Brothers in all situations. It makes for a nice contrast to have knights care so much for their presentation, to stage themselves as untouchable warriors and connoisseurs of the fine arts, only to end up all muddy and bloody on the battlefield like any soldier of common birth. Speaking of battlefields, knights come with partially randomized perks to reflect that each knight has his very own experiences, strengths and weaknesses in combat.

At the same time, work on the new and completely redone contract mechanics has started. We’re currently prototyping to make sure that everything works out as planned and will have a dedicated update or two to let you know all about them within the next few weeks.

 

[agris]

To address this, we'll now anchor the contracts offered (which will play a more important role than they do currently, more on this later) around the player's renown/reputation so that different and more challenging ones get unlocked as the game progresses, and have them be more explicit about the type of challenge you're likely to face. So while the world as a whole still won't scale to the player's level, this way of interacting with the world will for a more gradual progression in challenge. It'll start a bit more low key than now and then scale higher for an appropriate end game climax.

Lhynn's suggestion of tying it to geography and thus giving the player control over the rate at which the challenge increases strikes me as a much better way to implement this than just contracts based on a ranking. The latter is monotonous, while the former lets us craft our own experience.

Think about it another way, did you ever play a magic user in skyrim? Vendors only offered higher tier spells when your skill passed a threshold, so you never got the opportunity to buy, much less cast, something that was outside your skill. While safe in that it avoided player frustration, it was also very sterile and overly gamey.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Lhynn's suggestion of tying it to geography and thus giving the player control over the rate at which the challenge increases strikes me as a much better way to implement this than just contracts based on a ranking. The latter is monotonous, while the former lets us craft our own experience.

Think about it another way, did you ever play a magic user in skyrim? Vendors only offered higher tier spells when your skill passed a threshold, so you never got the opportunity to buy, much less cast, something that was outside your skill. While safe in that it avoided player frustration, it was also very sterile and overly gamey.

But linking available contracts to players renown and/or faction reputation would still be sensible.
Why would an ambitious noblehouse offer important and difficult assignment to rag tag band of nobodies who haven't proven themselves in any way?

 

[agris]

Right, but the execution is what matters. I think linking the frequency / relative proportion to renown makes sense. Hard thresholds result in that skyrim-type behavior.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Hmmm. I wonder if all missions will be ´do or die trying´-type or will game offer different failure states for missions.
Time limits, targets slipping away, etc.
Perhaps some missions could offer option to do the most mercenary thing possible. Turn coat when some one makes a better offer for you.
Of course failing to complete mission in a way should carry reputation penalty.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

It would be interesting to have both factors / axes at play. So Lhynn's suggestion of a link to geography would apply to some contracts, like a desperate village would give a dangerous assignment to anyone who came along, even if they were clearly out of their depth. But an important assignment for a picky counterparty would only go to someone with the necessary reputation. This combination would, imo, allow variation and replayability, allowing expert players to venture out of their initial starting area and go for higher risk/reward contracts early in the game, but even they would have to earn enough renown for certain contracts.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

It would be interesting to have both factors / axes at play. So Lhynn's suggestion of a link to geography would apply to some contracts, like a desperate village would give a dangerous assignment to anyone who came along, even if they were clearly out of their depth. But an important assignment for a picky counterparty would only go to someone with the necessary reputation. This combination would, imo, allow variation and replayability, allowing expert players to venture out of their initial starting area and go for higher risk/reward contracts early in the game, but even they would have to earn enough renown for certain contracts.

I usually try to avoid posts that simply say "this", but...
This.

 

[Shadowfang]

Just didn't remove it from an inventory and i have to recommend it.
Will get it as soon as it is released in a free-drm form.

It reminds me of a M&B but with good combat.
Hope it doesnt end feeling as void and meaningless as the former.

 

[Agesilaus]

Okay, I've been playing a lot of Battle Brothers iron-man style on deadly difficulty. Here are my thoughts on balance:

General
The game now requires a lot of ranged defence, which is a big change from how I remember things. Everybody seems to be carrying javelins, too. I don't like the rate of deterioration for bows and crossbows; if you want to shoot two or more quivers, you need to bring multiple bows. It seems strange to have to use a new bow after just 15~ shots; in the end I got the weaponmaster ability when I could, but it just feels odd. Things are obviously very expensive on deadly mode, but it's not too bad.

Forest battles still suck horribly. Seriously, why? Let us remove the trees so we can see what we're doing, or better yet just overhaul the whole system because forests are awful right now. I don't fight in the forest unless a contract literally forces me to go and do it. Even then, I'll probably just break the contract because it's the opposite of fun. Even worse when your army is split into several parts by impenetrable walls of trees; hope you enjoy losing men in an ironman game because of absurd combat maps.

Undead
Perfectly balanced and a lot of fun. I avoided most of the high level undead fights, so I didn't encounter too many ghosts, vampires, necromancers, or heroes, but when I did it worked well. One of the best parts of the game is that feeling you get when the Wiederganger hordes are gaining the upper-hand.

Have you fixed the ghosts so that their scream doesn't affect brothers who have the mind-block ability? I remember this being broken a version or two ago.

Humans
Perfectly balanced, although I hate that marksman in the first battle you face. Actually, I think I hate marksmen in general, but it's good. I love fighting thugs, or seeing a raider approach without a helmet on.

Orcs
Perfectly balanced early on, and then horribly unbalanced. The armour bloat is absurd, and there's no way to counter it (at least on deadly difficulty). Young orcs and berserkers are well balanced; the berserkers are of course extremely strong, but they're a glass cannon.

The adult orcs and the warlords, however, are broken in the current version. The amount of armour they wear is just over the top, it's ridiculous. On the deadly difficulty, you cannot imagine fighting even one or two of them until extremely late in the game. There's just no way of taking their armour down without masses of halberds or the highest level axes/hammers. Crossbows SCRATCH them. On deadly difficulty, it's almost impossible to assemble an army capable of breaking through their armour in a reasonable amount of time, it's broken.

If the armour isn't going to be toned down, or new ways of breaking armour offered, then the price tag on taking them out needs to go way, way, way up. No bounty should send you after a warlord for anything less than 5,000 gold.

Goblins
Just no. Not even going to talk about it. Fucking hate them with a passion; I no longer fight them. I cancel any contract asking me to get rid of them. They are miniature ninjas who are way, way over-powered. They represent guaranteed casualties. I can beat them when I have a good crew, but it's never worth the cost. Even small numbers will definitely kill a handful of your people. The problem is that they have very high combat skills and fantastic equipment, and they're hard to hit. If you gave them high HP and armour they'd be invincible. I only fought skirmishers and ambushers because there's no way in hell I'm encountering anything else. It's just an exercise in frustration, especially when the game offers you 500~ gold to fight a battle where you are guaranteed to lose 3+ men.

I suspect that they have very low fatigue tolerance, so perhaps I just need to camp in a shield wall until they wear themselves out, but I don't want to find out. It's the most frustrating, unfun battle imaginable. Death to all goblins. Either reduce their skill levels, or increase the bounty and strength estimations by a lot.



Other than that, it's great. Still one of my favourite games out there.

 

[Ulminati]

Forest battles still suck horribly. Seriously, why? Let us remove the trees so we can see what we're doing, or better yet just overhaul the whole system because forests are awful right now. I don't fight in the forest unless a contract literally forces me to go and do it. Even then, I'll probably just break the contract because it's the opposite of fun. Even worse when your army is split into several parts by impenetrable walls of trees; hope you enjoy losing men in an ironman game because of absurd combat maps.

Agreed here. I think what forests really need are tiles (more) that are overgrown, but not impassable. Make them give a cover modifier for things that pass through them. Maybe even make movement into them cost an extra point and some fatigue. But let people pass in a somewhat straight line through most of the forest. It's OK that there are trees that block an entire hex. But they should be rare. Forests are meant to slow movement, not block it.

It would also help graphically if most of the tree tiles had, well, less tree in them (to make room for a unit). It would make the forest easier to parse visually. Brushes and undergrowth make up a lot of forest usually, as well as small saplings. Since ranges are somewhat abstract (we don't have 1 hex = x meters explicitly stated anywhere as fa as I know), there's nothing stopping us from assumign forest fights take place over a smaller area than a fight in the open. Especially since people will move slower and fire their bows shorter in a forest. If you assume forest fights are "zoomed in" so to speak, it's easy to get away with spreading trees out a little more.

 

[34scell]

Yeah it feels more like fighting indoors. At least get rid of the tree walls.

 

[Lucky]

Update

Progress Update - Settlement Screens
13 November - Overhype Studios

With most of the assets for the noble houses now in place we have returned to fleshing out what you see as you enter the various settlements on the worldmap. We previously worked with placeholder images to get the mechanics down first and make sure that everything works out as planned, but now those settlements receive their final look and polish. Check it out!

Settlement Screens

The worldmap consists of a variety of different terrain and climate zones, including several new additions we introduced a while ago, and those also show as you enter settlements. As villages, cities and strongholds are located in the frozen north, buildings will be covered in snow and snowy mountains will cover the horizon.

A settlement located in the wide open steppe of the south will have a much different vibe to it, as does one high up the mountains or deep in the forest. Having settlements fit their environment helps to make the world as a whole feel more coherent, and individual settlements more like real places and less generic spots on the map. After all, entering a city in the snowy north only to see lush green meadows on the inside wouldn’t exactly help the atmosphere.

Of course all settlements will look differently during night time. The shops are closed and usually only the tavern will remain open. You will be able to spend the night there and rest until morning. Here is an example of a settlement during night time in a grassland environment.

What you can’t see from the images is that we’re also creating a whole ambient soundscape for settlements depending on both their environment and the buildings within. A coastal fishing village will have you hear seagulls, a village containing a smithy will have you hear hammering on metal, and every settlement will have the sounds of people and civilization to really make you feel that you’re in the middle of a living and breathing place.

Meanwhile, work on the all-new contract mechanics continues. Next week will see a more lengthy update again as we’ll introduce how contracts now work and how you’ll be earning your crowns in the future!

Meet us in Hamburg

If you are in Hamburg you can meet up with us tomorrow 14th of November at the “Making Games Talents” conference at the HAW Hamburg. We will be representing Overhype Studios and be talking to young people wanting to get into the game industry all day so if you are in the area or attending anyways drop by and have a chat with us!

More info here (German only): Making Games Talents 2015

 

[Shadowfang]

Agesilaus, if you ever have to fight Goblins again, do it at night.
Still boring but much easier and safer.

 

[Agesilaus]

Agesilaus, if you ever have to fight Goblins again, do it at night.
Still boring but much easier and safer.

True, although they are still lethal hand-to-hand because of high weapon skill and initiative. Their pikes are especially annoying. Still, I agree; one on one, hand to hand, most battle brothers can take them if you have good leather armour and a half-way decent weapon.

Honestly, they're totally broken and not at all fun. They could be a good faction, but the mechanics are awful.

 

[Sranchammer]

Will I be able to hire a few prostitutes to raise morale for the men?

 

[Ninjerk]

Will I be able to hire a few prostitutes to raise morale for the men?

Perhaps there could be a venereal disease they could catch for a small permanent disadvantage. Choice and consequence, men.

 

[Excidium II]

Will I be able to hire a few prostitutes to raise morale for the men?

Will need the camp follower DLC.

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[zaper]

This game seems to have more things that I like than a transgendered dwarf holding a peanut butter sandwich.

I'm going to play the shit out of it.

 

[Grimwulf]

I'm still new to this game, so help me grasp some concepts, men. It's day 31 and every settlement, even the main city, has only thieves as recruitable mercs. Is it a bug or a feature? At first I thought those were just some thematic settlements, which was kinda cool. But then I managed to put some money together and hire profeshinals, and couldn't find them anywhere. If this is supposed to be like that, do I have a chance of finding non-thief mercs anywhere, sometime? Or will it stay like that forever?

I'm playing deadly difficulty, if that matters. No-reload mode should be a default mode.

Edit: Just noticed that my main city became an "impoverished city with beggars at every corner" and no real merchandise on the market. So that's what causing thieves to generate.

Ok, another question - how do I fix it? Take caravan jobs towards the city? Our just pwn nearby enemy locations? Or what?