Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Interview Avellone, Ziets, Sawyer, Vincke and Kurvitz on the future of RPGs at Kotaku UK and PC Gamer

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, May 31, 2018.

  1. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    70,300
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Click here and disable ads!
    Tags: Chris Avellone; George Ziets; Josh Sawyer; Robert Kurvitz; Sven Vincke

    By some coincidence, over the past 48 hours two different websites have published interviews with celebrity RPG designers. Both interviews are about the state of the genre in 2018, a topic which is perhaps more relevant than usual in the aftermath of Pillars of Eternity 2's release. Yesterday's Kotaku UK interview asks Chris Avellone and George Ziets how the definition of RPGs has evolved over the years. Here's an excerpt:

    Regardless of the particular definition of the form, as any abiding genre fanatic will attest, most RPGs live or die on the strength of their storytelling. It might be surprising but it wasn’t always that way, as veteran RPG developer George Ziets recalls. Ziets started working in the games industry around the turn of the millennium, eventually working on New Vegas and Torment: Tides of Numenera with Avellone, along with a host of other games including Dungeon Siege 3 and Pillars of Eternity.

    Ziets recalls that early computer RPGs like Wizardry and the original Bard’s Tale essentially ported the most popular editions of their tabletop progenitors like Dungeons and Dragons to the personal computer, eschewing epic tales of sword and sorcery to focus on the tactical guts of the pen-and-paper experience. “Originally, most RPGs were Tolkienesque, monster-slaying fantasies,” Ziets says. “Now we have RPGs set in science-fiction worlds, modern times, etc. Similarly, most early RPGs had some version of D&D stats and skills, but many are now evolving away from strict adherence to those rules.”

    To Ziets, this slow expansion beyond the realm of twenty-sided dice and Vancian magic reflects the advance of video games as a medium, in the same way as early television programs like The Twilight Zone resembled theatrical productions more than the elaborate multi-camera setups of later decades. “As the art form evolved, and creators discovered techniques that were unique to television, that gradually moved further and further away from the techniques of theatre,” says Ziet. “TV got better and came into its own because creators learned what worked best for their medium, but in the early days, they had to start with what they knew. I see RPGs in much the same way.”

    As the genre shed its analogue origins and began to explore the immense possibilities of digital space, however, the expectations of the player-base began to change along with it. Avellone remembers the days when players were expected to draw their own maps, engage in tedious pixel-hunts, or — worst of all — call up premium hint lines for help with labyrinthine questlines. For a generation of gamers raised on the likes of THAC0 and needlessly-Byzantine attack tables (staples of early RPGs) the shortcuts of today seem like ostentatiously easy living. There’s a small-but-enthusiastic audience for games 'hardcore' enough to abandon these modern trappings, such as Caves of Qud or Brogue. Even something as lauded as Wild Hunt caught more than its share of flack for its less-than-immaculate inventory system and inexact player movement.

    “I’ve noticed that Fallout has removed some elements and added others depending on the game,” says Avellone. “I suspect that’s done to make progression easier — easier for a more casual user to understand... Players expect quest-markers, an auto-map, easy equipment comparisons. Overall, things have changed over the decades to reduce a lot of the heavy lifting RPGs used to do. I’m not saying that’s bad, but its influences aren’t driven by the RPG market, but player expectations.”

    When faced with the onslaught of skill-trees and coloured loot flooding the very top of the sales charts, neither Avellone nor Ziets expresses any serious concern about these mega-action games pushing less mainstream fare out of the market. In Ziets’ view the opposite is happening, thanks to the small horde of high-quality 'traditional' RPGs released in the past two years which grappled for the limited time and hard drives of genre fans: Pillars of Eternity 2, Torment, Wasteland, Divinity: Original Sin 2, the Banner Saga series, and stylish newcomers like Disco Elysium (formerly No Truce With the Furies).

    “If anything," says Ziets, "I’m worried that the abundance of RPGs is going to make it harder for any individual game to stand out or cause burnout in the core audience.”
    Today's PC Gamer interview with Josh Sawyer, Swen Vincke and Disco Elysium's Robert Kurvitz takes a more direct angle, asking whether the RPG genre needs to evolve from its nostalgia-based fantasy roots. As you might expect, Josh is eager to see change while Swen is more defensive, but it's Robert who is the true radical. I quote:

    “The RPGs we play nowadays are based on massive revolutions. The first Fallout was, I think, the last major change to RPGs. It changed the setting and showed you could do completely different things from its high fantasy roots. I was 11 when I played that, but I’ve never seen anything as revolutionary in all my years playing since.”

    Kurvitz sees a genre in stasis, and it’s the source of some frustration. “It’s very odd. RPGs are essentially reality simulators, and the hook is that the position the player is put into is the skin of one person. So it also simulates mental and physical faculties, giving not a bird’s eye view of reality but the subjective reality of one person. That seems in and of itself a tremendously open concept that should be constantly evolving.”

    The source of this stagnation goes far beyond RPGs or even video games, he says. Kurvitz believes that it’s the product of culture, particularly pop culture, slowing down. “It’s calcifying. The internal generation engine of western pop culture is just very self-referential in general. So that could be one possible reason for it—just people growing old.”

    Kurvitz’s solution? Broaden everything. Settings, mechanics, what an RPG means, even who creates them. Writers and artists from other industries with different expertise need to be tempted over, but he doesn’t see that happening until the love affair with high fantasy has ended.

    “I’m going to sound elitist, but I’m going to suggest that a lot of really good writers don’t want to write in a high fantasy setting. They don’t want to spend four stressful years on Tolkien fanfic. You just won’t get really talented writers who can do tremendous things for your game that way, and you need to hire artists and writers outside of the usual development circuit.”

    If we were to get away from the conventions of the CRPG, one of the best places to look would be tabletop RPGs. Again. Once you move beyond official D&D campaigns and all the expectations that come along with them, the tabletop landscape becomes a lot more unpredictable and experimental.

    “People do these amazingly historically accurate D&D sessions of the Peninsular War,” says Kurvitz. “They order actual, real-life memorabilia and objects from the Peninsular War, and models, and play with them. I know that amazingly strange things are being done with tabletop, but CRPGs are really conservative in comparison.”

    [...] “I think people are right that there’s a renaissance of traditional RPGs, or the traditional style of RPGs, but I don’t want us to squander this opportunity to really grow the genre into something broader,” says Sawyer. “We don’t need to abandon fantasy or crunchy number systems, but that doesn’t have to be the limit of what we make.”

    What Kurvitz wants to see is a complete revolution, imagining RPGs that take decades or even a hundred years to make, flagging and reacting to every tiny thing you do. He envisions RPGs becoming a new mode of literature—programmed literature—putting programmers and novelists together to tell stories that literally span generations. It’s improbably ambitious and far-fetched, but still incredibly tantalising.

    “I hope we’re going to get the ball rolling.”
    Godspeed, gentlemen.
     
    • Interesting x 4
    • Brofist x 3
    • Informative x 3
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 2
    • "It was Aliens" x 2
    • STOP! posting x 1
    • Prestigious x 1
    • [citation needed] x 1
    • When words are not enough x 1
    • Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    • cuck x 1
    • Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. cpmartins Cipher

    cpmartins
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2007
    Parrots:
    107
    Location:
    Brasil
    I'd rather cut my dick off than give a click to kotaku. In fact, I think it's a necessary step to read kotaku articles.
    Here's an archived link in case anyone wants to read it: https://archive.li/J5icC
     
    • Brofist x 22
    • Salute x 12
    • Funny x 3
    • Thanks! x 2
    • butthurt x 2
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • Yes x 1
    • Racist x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Bocian Augur

    Bocian
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Parrots:
    666
    Is this interview thread going to explode like the previous one? What secrets still remain hidden? Who will be the brave man to unearth them?
    Discuss!
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Magister Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Parrots:
    1,301
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    I don't see Styg, Vince or Cleve in this interview. It's garbage.
     
    • Prestigious x 11
    • Agree x 8
    • Edgy x 6
    • Brofist x 5
    • Balanced x 2
    • M: x 2
    • Participation Award x 1
    • nice x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • not sure if serious x 1
    • rolleyes x 1
    • Disagree x 1
    • incline x 1
    • When words are not enough x 1
    • (autism) x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Parrots:
    3,015
    This is what im talking about. RNG is holding genre back
     
    • No x 6
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 2
    • Disagree x 2
    • retadred x 2
    • STOP! posting x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Heretic Learned

    Heretic
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Parrots:
    407
    Age of Decadence + Underrail >>> PoE + Torment + Wasteland
    The journos either never played them because they are too hardcore, or they ignore them on purpose.
     
    • Agree x 9
    • Brofist x 2
    • meh x 2
    • Yes x 2
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • rolleyes x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. IHaveHugeNick Arcane

    IHaveHugeNick
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,867,034
    Location:
    edge of a melon
    Never heard about any of these people. Here in Obsidian we're more interested it hiring talent from the extended Urhuhart family.
     
    • Funny x 38
    • Salute x 4
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 2
    • Brofist x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • [citation needed] x 1
    • Excited! x 1
    • :M x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Magister Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Parrots:
    1,301
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Age of Decadence >> PoE + WM + PoE2 + Tyranny + T:ToN + W2

    Underrail >> PoE + WM + PoE2 + Tyranny + T:ToN + W2

    Grimoire >> PoE + WM + PoE2 + Tyranny + T:ToN + W2
     
    • Brofist x 6
    • (autism) x 4
    • Agree x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • Edgy x 1
    • FAKE NEWS x 1
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    • Yes x 1
    • STOP! posting x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Magister Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Parrots:
    1,301
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    :killit:
     
    • Agree x 3
    • not sure if serious x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    • Despair x 1
    • Slurp this person's delicious asshole x 1
    • Excited! x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. buffalo bill Learned

    buffalo bill
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Parrots:
    156

    Ziets is cool, but this opinion is pretty decline. Original Twilight Zone >>> nearly any modern television program. The analogy makes just about the opposite point he wants it to, in my eyes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Despair Despair x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    70,300
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    This sounds like a bizarre misunderstanding by the Kotaku UK interviewer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • "It was Aliens" "It was Aliens" x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Magister Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Parrots:
    1,301
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    No, it is not. I love Twilight Zone to death, but that's because there are few great episodes in the midst of bad fiction. What I can't accept is this statement that tv series and cRPGs both improved:

    That depends. FO, FO2, Arcanum, and PS:T, moved the genre foward, added more stuff and made it more sophisticated in certain aspects. But the recent airpeegees of the likes of Obsidian are bad.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. mustawd. Liturgist

    mustawd.
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Parrots:
    1,280
    Slow down there buddy. He might just mean we need to go to 30-sided dice instead.
     
    • Brofist x 2
    • Excited! x 2
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • incline x 1
    • Yes x 1
    • Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. lukaszek Arcane

    lukaszek
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Parrots:
    3,015
    actually...

    I know its actually different person, but we clearly need to go away from rolling dice to balls. Since ball is one sided, each roll will have same result :happytrollboy:
     
    • Participation Award Participation Award x 1
    • Makes you think... Makes you think... x 1
    • Excited! Excited! x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Parrots:
    3,572
    Location:
    California
    I think it is a fair criticism that so long as cRPGs are merely trying to recapture the excellence of the 1990s, it is almost necessarily the case that they won't advance the genre. There is something weird, too, that there is so much fan support for attempting to recreate 1990s-era RPGs when so many of those fans haven't actually played (or replayed down different paths) major games of that era that are perfectly playable today. That said, I guess it's not particularly surprising that after catastrophic "revolutions" in the genre, many would want to simply go back to the old way of doing things (as people often do after catastrophic revolutions in real life).

    In terms of two specific points:

    I love George, and I think he's brilliant, but this doesn't seem factually accurate. It may be true that enemy-killing was a major element of early RPGs, but as cRPG Addict and felipepepe have proven, early RPGs were extremely diverse in settings and systems. Just at a glance at cRPG Addict's list, in 1983, you have Expedition Amazon, The Return of Heracles, and Galactic Adventure. Or in 1986, you have Mafia, Starflight, and Roadwar 2000. In 1990, Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday, Captive, Escape from Hell, Megatraveller, QFG 2, Fountain of Dreams, Space 1889, Spirit of Excalibur, The Savage Empire, and Hard Nova. Etc., etc. The RPGs of my childhood were if anything much more diverse in terms of systems and settings than the RPGs of today.

    [EDIT:

    Actually, the statement is "factually accurate," but it's misleading. It is true that "most RPGs" were "Tolkienesque,* monster-slaying fantasies" early on. (* Assuming this just means "high fantasy with multiple humanoid races.") It is also true that "now we have RPGs set in science-fiction worlds, modern times, etc." But you could just as easily write, "Originally, we had RPGs set in science-fiction worlds, modern times, etc. Now most RPGs are Tolkienesque, monster-slaying fantasies." That's so because (1) fantasy, combat-oriented RPGs have always been the norm and (2) there have always been exceptions to this norm. What makes the statement misleading is that it suggests that the norm was stronger earlier on, and the exceptions more eccentric and common today. But I think the opposite is true. There was more experimentation and diversity early on than now, and the predominance of certain tropes and settings in cRPGs is much stronger now.

    Thus, the statement is a little like saying, "In medieval Europe, most people did not die violent deaths, but in modern Europe, many people are murdered every year." Each fact is true, but they are applying different standards, and when juxtaposed, they imply a conclusion that isn't true. Likewise here.

    ]

    I love Fallout and I'm excited about Disco Elysium, but this also strikes me as historically wrong. Fallout is just a somewhat more serious incarnation of a setting that was well trodden in cRPGs by the time Fallout came out, with Wasteland an easy example but certainly not the only one (Roadwar 2000, Fountain of Dreams, perhaps 2400 AD to some degree, etc.). The quest design and dialogue trees are at least somewhat reminiscent of Dark Sun, and the skill system is somewhat reminiscent of Wasteland and others. I think it is rightly regarded as one of the greatest games of all time for weaving together systems, setting, art, writing, etc. into something special, but I'm not sure that's "revolutionary" so much as an instance of carefully building upon existing elements.

    Similarly with the Twilight Zone point. If anything, I think that after perhaps a very early copy-catting of tabletop wargaming, early cRPGs reveled in the things you could do with computers that you couldn't do in tabletop systems (like dynamic visuals and audio, procedural generation, large-scale combat, NPC simulation, remote multiplayer) and went all over the place in terms of settings (Tolkien fantasy, Arthurian legend, Greek myth, "Orientalist" Asia and "deepest darkest" Africa and America, cyberpunk, mech warrior, hodge-podge fantasy, space opera) and rules (reagents, MP, Vancian magic, HP, bodypart-specific HP, etc.). If anything, the problem today is that too many cRPGs are self-referential (here I agree with the Disco Elysium analysis) and market-research driven, whereas in the past they were inspired by a million different things and made before it was possible to really know what the market wanted (or by people who didn't really care what it wanted).
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
    • Brofist x 25
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 3
    • Prestigious x 3
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 2
    • Participation Award x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. TorontRayne Liturgist

    TorontRayne
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Parrots:
    1,025
    Location:
    Scorched Earth
     
    ^ Top  
  17. ScrotumBroth Educated Patron

    ScrotumBroth
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    Parrots:
    212
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    [​IMG]

    A good game will stand out, generic memberberries Kickstarter game won't. I was hoping for him to add zest for innovation in connection to WL3.

    Kurvitz seems genuinely enthused to talk about pushing the boundaries and evolve. Granted, it's easier to have that approach when you're a newcomer, but still.

    Edit: MRY beat me to the punch :)
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Parrots:
    1,579
    You'e my favorite Obsidian employee
     
    • nice nice x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Latro Arcane

    Latro
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Parrots:
    2,124
    Location:
    Zembla
    do any of these dudes even play videogames. I mean: sit down, play a game to full completion, not mess with it for 5 hours total to see what's hip n new and never touch it again
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Parrots:
    1,579
    No, why would they. Most of them don't even like playing RPGs, let alone be good at it. They are designers, following a higher calling.

    Next you expect writers to actually read books
     
    • Funny Funny x 12
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Despair Despair x 2
    ^ Top  
  21. Gregz Arcane

    Gregz
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Parrots:
    4,813
    Location:
    The Desert Wasteland
    • Agree Agree x 7
    ^ Top  
  22. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Parrots:
    1,579
    But how many of these diverse ideas and settings were successful? The greats we remember today Wizardry, Might & Magic, Ultima, Bard's Tale, Goldbox were all fantasy to some degree

    Actually RPGs then and now have always been quite diverse, its just that most of that diversity and variety (both rules- and setting-wise) has been limited to niche titles few people played. Which was true then, which is true now.

    The games that seemed overwhelmingly fantasy and similar are the big releases, and I don't think it has changed all that much, with the exception of maybe more SF-titles like Mass Effect
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. fobia Learned Patron

    fobia
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Parrots:
    181
    Which is only logical.
    Because of (A)D&D and Tolkien(esque stuff)'s popularity in the 80's these games had a fundament on which they could buid and a fanbase that would buy them.
    And despite all the satanism drama and whatnot, D&D was already pop culture back then, you didn't need to read Tolkien to know the settings, even if it was a derivation of the originals.
    Retrospective ties them together and imho led to the orthodoxy of fantasy and RPG going hand in hand.

    I'd still say that it's not because fantasy is such a strong genre/setting for RPGs per se.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. MRY Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Parrots:
    3,572
    Location:
    California
    It's really hard to know how successful games were back then -- sales data is hard to come by. Starflight apparently sold over a million copies. Starflight, Wasteland, QFG 2, Buck Rogers, The Savage Empire all pulled sequels. All of those games are pretty memorable.

    The other thing is that "all fantasy to some degree" is quite a fudge from "Tolkienesque, monster-slaying fantasies." The M&M games don't feel "Tolkinesque" at all -- they are much more Piers Anthony. Ultima has some Tolkienesque qualities, to be sure (the ~Ring Wraiths), but it's pretty reductive to call Ultima IV onward "monster-slaying fantasies." The settings really aren't particularly Tolkienian, either.

    If you consider it an RPG, Pirates! was quite successful. Same deal with Elite.

    But I guess more importantly than all this, you're totally changing George's point which was not that non-"Tolkienesque, monster-slaying fantasy" RPGs were unsuccessful early on, but that they simply didn't exist because developers had P&P tunnel vision and couldn't imagine such radical notions, and that it took decades of distance from P&P and of artistic evolution for these new settings to be explored. But that's hogwash. Early RPG developers were wildly creative with settings and rules; it may be that over time market forces narrowed things down toward fantasy and monster-slaying, but that would prove the opposite of George's point -- that evolution was reducing, rather than increasing, the eccentricity of RPG developers' visions. Put otherwise, mainstream RPGs today aren't in the era of Hitchcock and Welles breaking free of the shackles of stage plays -- they're in the era of Disney-Marvel market-based formulas.

    [EDIT: This all sounds more annoyed than I really am. It's not a big deal, I just think that it's a kind of a "medieval people thought the world was flat" bad myth to think that early cRPG developers couldn't imagine deviating from P&P norms.]
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 9
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Grauken Arcane Patron

    Grauken
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Parrots:
    1,579
    No, the point was that both George and you were wrong. Agreed that RPGs were highly diverse from the very beginning (so George is wrong there), but also that the mainstream RPGs were most of the time fantasy (regardless over your hair-splitting whether they were Tolkienesque or not, which is quite funny as Tolkien wasn't about monster slaying, which was more DND than anything else) and the diversity of options was mostly a niche thing. You might have a point that some of the early non-Fantasy RPGs might have been more successful, but I would say what many remember from those days are the fantasy ones again.

    Basically, I don't think we need a revolution, but rather we need the mainstream (of RPGs, which in itself is a niche) to include more diversity from the existing, more diverse niche-titles. AoD and Underrail are better than any of the mediocre Kickstarter-driven disappointments that hog all the news.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)