RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[IHaveHugeNick]

IHaveHugeNick do I understand correctly that before Obsidian you worked in Black Isle Studios?

I did, and I can confirm that Deathclaws were inspired by Tina Parker.

 

[agris]

And HOLY SHIT I WOULD PLAY IN THIS RUSSIAN FALLOUT!!!

It isn’t real.

 

[Fairfax]

So we learned that Feargus Urquhart is a big fan of young adult male empowerment literature.

It seems to be a bit more than just empowerment at times. These are some reviews of "The Pen is Mightier", which he read recently:

Horrid waste of time

If you enjoy bad teenage boy fapfiction this book is for you. If not, find something better to do with your time, like scrubbing your eyes with lye and steel wool.

Gave up halfway through. Should have guessed from he cover but what does the dude do when he gets a pen hat makes wishes come true? Use it to make every woman he sees have sex with him, of course. Badly written sex too. I’m sure all the guys who push gamergate love this book.

I only got a few pages into this book, and honestly didn't even get to the part where he gets the pen.

The main character seems to be a bitter, 'woe-is-me' stereotype, who is apparently gifted with incredible control over his life because the universe recognises his inherent awesomeness.

I'll be avoiding this author in the future.

The main character is a flat out rapist. He is literally altering reality to make girls do things that they wouldn't normally do. I couldn't finish this book. When a main character is this oblivious to his own evil then there are problems. This book made my dick shrivel up and filled my stomach with disgust.

 

[Cael]

How the hell this thread turned from Chris vs Obsidian Upper Management into discussion about Armenian Genocide?

Those bloody Turks and Armos are worse than the mainlanders and the Japs.

"Someone of the tribe you identify with killed someone of a tribe I identify with over 100 years ago. My name is Armeno Montoya! DIE!!!"

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Fairfax How the fuck do you know what he's reading?

 

[Fairfax]

Fairfax How the fuck do you know what he's reading?

I posted his goodreads profile earlier in the thread (page 178 or so).

 

[SerratedBiz]

Fairfax How the fuck do you know what he's reading?

He hasn't read the whole thread.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Jesus Christ, you just made me realize that I have read this entire thread.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Jesus Christ, you just made me realize that I have read this entire thread.

Yeah me too.

 

[lophiaspis]

Chris Avellone what exactly did you write on Tyranny? Can you tell us who wrote what?

 

[Grunker]

Well I read through a lot of CA’s posts and while I’m sure much of it is candid, I can’t help but find a discrepancy between complaints about management and wishing for a Cain/Boyarsky-led company (considering the history). In a world where RPGs were dying and companies that made games with successful reception were being killed off, Obsidian was floating, even if barely. It’s also interesting that CA remembers working on a couple of canceled projects most fondly (while having bad memories of producing games we got to play) - and that he cites games that, while good, ultimately did nothing to help stave off the death of their producing companies as examples of worthy development vis a vis Obsidian’s development (e.g. Bloodlines).

Chris Avellone, will you forgive me for thinking you would rather fail in an ideal workspace on a meaningful product than actually “do what it takes” to survive as a company and keep putting out products? Is that an entirely unreasonable judgment?

Again - despite the flak Obs and PoE’s been getting from you and a certain segment around here, Pillars is one of only a very small number of Kickstarters to deliver on everything it promised, feature-wise, and in a reasonable timeframe. Even the lauded Larian’s DOS failed to deliver on some pretty big promises, like the mega dungeon.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Well I read through a lot of CA’s posts and while I’m sure much of it is candid, I can’t help but find a discrepancy between complaints about management and wishing for a Cain/Boyarsky-led company

If they don't want to do it again, no point in wishing for it.

 

[Grunker]

Well I read through a lot of CA’s posts and while I’m sure much of it is candid, I can’t help but find a discrepancy between complaints about management and wishing for a Cain/Boyarsky-led company

If they don't want to do it again, no point in wishing for it.

It’s not about wishing for it I suppose, it’s that Chris said that to his mind those two would constitute the ideal management layer of Obsidian.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

How the hell this thread turned from Chris vs Obsidian Upper Management into discussion about Armenian Genocide?

And HOLY SHIT I WOULD PLAY IN THIS RUSSIAN FALLOUT!!!

It's not Russian fallout. That's how modern day Russia looks like.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's not Russian fallout. That's how modern day Russia looks like.

And then people wonder why they liked it better under Communism.

 

[Cael]

It's not Russian fallout. That's how modern day Russia looks like.

And then people wonder why they liked it better under Communism.

Don't know about you, but the omnipresent threat of getting vapourised in a nuclear fireball makes me not want to go back to slaver-I mean, Communism.

 

[Wunderbar]

Don't know about you, but the omnipresent threat of getting vapourised in a nuclear fireball makes me not want to go back to slaver-I mean, Communism.

there is still a chance to be vaporized in a nuclear fireball even without communism.

 

[Cael]

Don't know about you, but the omnipresent threat of getting vapourised in a nuclear fireball makes me not want to go back to slaver-I mean, Communism.

there is still a chance to be vaporized in a nuclear fireball even without communism.

Yes. But at least it is not targeted at me but the idiot next door :D

 

[Darth Roxor]

It’s not about wishing for it I suppose, it’s that Chris said that to his mind those two would constitute the ideal management layer of Obsidian.

Has he? I don't think I remember that. IIRC he said that the ideal situation would be to just have everyone fuck off from C&B and let them do what they wanna do.

 

[Grunker]

It’s not about wishing for it I suppose, it’s that Chris said that to his mind those two would constitute the ideal management layer of Obsidian.

Has he? I don't think I remember that. IIRC he said that the ideal situation would be to just have everyone fuck off from C&B and let them do what they wanna do.

He answered with a confirming response to Infinitron’s question about it and said:

I also wouldn’t want to be a GM, I’d want Cain (and Boyarsky) to do whatever they’d like and support them because I believe based on their track record, that would pay off in the end – for everyone, including them.

As well as other, similar quotes that expressed support for leading/managing roles for Cain and Boyarsky.

I suppose you’re right that he’s just saying they should be left to their own devices, but if so my question still stands.

At the very least, there’s a desire there for a Cain/Boyarsky-led game.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

It’s not about wishing for it I suppose, it’s that Chris said that to his mind those two would constitute the ideal management layer of Obsidian.

Has he? I don't think I remember that. IIRC he said that the ideal situation would be to just have everyone fuck off from C&B and let them do what they wanna do.

He answered with a confirming response to Infinitron’s question about it and said:

I also wouldn’t want to be a GM, I’d want Cain (and Boyarsky) to do whatever they’d like and support them because I believe based on their track record, that would pay off in the end – for everyone, including them.

As well as other, similar quotes that expressed support for leading/managing roles for Cain and Boyarsky.

I think Roxor has it right; he’s not saying that Cain/Boyarsky should be management, he’s saying what he wants is not to run Obsidian, but for Tim and Leonard to have a lot of autonomy within Obsidian, which is not the same as running the company.

Knowing how much Mr. Majestic dislikes misinformation, maybe we should just ask for clarification—after all, he’s been kind enough to answer our questions.

Chris Avellone, sorry to ask you a question about how to interpret your own answers, but if enough bombshells come out that Feargus and his fellow owners need to take a step back from managing the company, who would you recommend to take over Obsidian’s senior leadership positions? Or, if they manage to sell the studio, do you have any advice for who should be put in charge of Obsidian as a division within, say, Take-Two?

 

[Grunker]

^ check my edits

Also, this is sort of a diversion from my actual question which is more about ideology versus what Danes call “forholdene i jernindustrien” (“the conditions of the iron industry”, i.e. the actual, existing state of an industry and the conditions you must act on to survive within it).

This bit:

In a world where RPGs were dying and companies that made games with successful reception were being killed off, Obsidian was floating, even if barely. It’s also interesting that CA remembers working on a couple of canceled projects most fondly (while having bad memories of producing games we got to play) - and that he cites games that, while good, ultimately did nothing to help stave off the death of their producing companies as examples of worthy development vis a vis Obsidian’s development (e.g. Bloodlines).

Chris Avellone, will you forgive me for thinking you would rather fail in an ideal workspace on a meaningful product than actually “do what it takes” to survive as a company and keep putting out products? Is that an entirely unreasonable judgment?

 

[aratuk]

… to take over Obsidian’s senior leadership positions? Or, if they manage to sell the studio, do you have any advice for who should be put in charge of Obsidian as a division within, say, Take-Two?

Fargo, the once and future king. While he has been in exile, the pretender Feargus has made a gigantic mess, but all Fargo has to do is drive over there, de-owner everyone, and take the throne for himself. Then we get a bunch more dad jokes about Red Boots DLC, just like we want.

 

[Chris Avellone]

I think Roxor has it right; he’s not saying that Cain/Boyarsky should be management, he’s saying what he wants is not to run Obsidian, but for Tim and Leonard to have a lot of autonomy within Obsidian, which is not the same as running the company.

This. I know it's naive, but if you did have a situation with backing that took care of all the out-of-dev-team logistics (dealing with landlord, budget reports, dealing with accountant and taxes, CPA) and lets you do all you can to let you focus on just making content, I think the results of that would keep RPG'ers happy for a long time to come - for me, it was the owner parts that got in the way of having fun making content - or even feeling like I could make the content envisioned. But again, I think this would be a very hard situation to achieve, but I was allowed to give my take, so I did.

Chris Avellone, sorry to ask you a question about how to interpret your own answers, but if enough bombshells come out that Feargus and his fellow owners need to take a step back from managing the company, who would you recommend to take over Obsidian’s senior leadership positions? Or, if they manage to sell the studio, do you have any advice for who should be put in charge of Obsidian as a division within, say, Take-Two?

Well, that likely won't happen (selling the company is more likely - I think that was always the intention, but they need buyers and interested parties), but if the Indiana team gets along with Take-Two, working directly with T2 and being given or hiring a competent General Manager who runs the logistics of the studio/a new studio (but this GM would answer to Tim and Leonard if they needed resources, etc. - but they DON'T override them like an owner might) would be a nice thought, even if it's naive. (GM isn't a Lead Producer role, but someone that "runs" the studio while someone else helps with production duties on the project - you don't have to worry about day-to-day ops - they take care of all the high-level busywork).

In short, building a company-structured "patron" of sorts around a team would be my ideal situation, and where they can focus on creating the content they want without a lot of logistic hurdles.

If a company was danger of going under, yet a publisher had a great deal of investment in one of the teams, it wouldn't be unheard of for them to extract that team and move them to a new workplace - especially if they put a lot of resources in the game.

What tends to happen instead, is when an entire company is failing, they pump more money into the upper levels to keep the wheels turning (and then they use that to negotiate better end terms, which bleeds out the end result, causing a cycle of desperation). Even worse, the cash infusion doesn't mean the project itself benefits from it, it doesn't always filter down properly.

While establishing a company-structured "patron" sounds like a pipe dream, structuring a company around specific creatives are something I've seen happen (and been offered), and if it could happen again, I think RPG players would be happy with what's created with Tim and Leonard. I still think back to what could have happened in F2 if everyone outside the process had stepped away (we probably would have gotten a better F2). One can dream.

Also, I should probably say that selling a company doesn't benefit the employees overmuch beyond temporary $$$ - usually, they may get some new perks and a bonus, but the trend of what happens when a company is sold can be pretty bleak, even if the owners and key personnel are contracted to stick around for a few years after the sale (which is usually part of the terms). Worse, you suddenly notice that while you get some new perks, a lot of the day-to-day accepted elements you loved and the overall company culture and camaraderie tend to be phased out in accordance with the new overlords - usually many old perks and casual ways of doing things become no longer acceptable b/c the buying company doesn't approve of the practice. This, in turns, turns a familiar work environment into something else, and it's not often something developers are comfortable with because despite the gains, they see a lot of the old pillars they enjoyed at their job taken away, either in increments, or all at once.

That's why selling a company isn't necessarily a win (and not often a creative win) for anyone except the ones who are focused on $$$ and whose key motivation is making money vs. making games. To the culture's benefit, I don't find many developers enter the field expecting to get rich - that's a trait that happens over time, is teased at by opportunity once within games and they get blinded by it, or is held by a few that I don't think love games at all.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

you did have a situation with backing that took care of all the out-of-dev-team logistics (dealing with landlord, budget reports, dealing with accountant and taxes, CPA)

Basically, you mean a having a competent administrator?

In short, building a company-structured "patron" of sorts around a team would be my ideal situation

Finding a patron who can understand gaming would be a challenge, I suppose.