Why is the state of competitive fps games so bad?

[Catacombs]

Play red orchestra 1/2.

Play Squad.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

"The state of competitive FPS games" is not bad. "The state of FPSs SkiNNyBane likes" is apparently awful and I shed many tears for you, but that's a different question.

The writing was always on the wall that your variety of FPS wasn't going to take off. People talk about how great TFC was, and I loved it, but a month after Counter-Strike's retail release there were three servers in my area with actual humans left. Who did you think was going to watch a tournament for a game that was on life support less than two years after release?

If the game's barrier to entry is a blast door, it won't have a casual scene. If it doesn't have a casual scene, it doesn't have viewers to generate revenue for the best players. If it doesn't generate revenue then the best players are going to move to a game that does. That's why the state of competitive FPSs you like is so bad.

 

[anvi]

Yep casuals, millennials, and the instant gratification generation. Etc.

But all gaming is in decline. Originally gaming was all about devs providing a brutal challenge that you had to overcome. Pong, Tetris, Mario, Manic Miner, etc. Everything back then was hard. So the FPSs of the 90s (and RPGs and everything else...) were still being affected by that early game design philosophy. Quake 3 moved so fast, you had to think fast and have great reflexes to get good at it. Compare that to these modern dumbass dudebro military shooters and cover based shit.

https://imgur.com/BITmX

I was bored of FPSs a long time ago, I got burned out on Wolf3d, 2 expansions, Doom, Doom 2, Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, Rise of the Triads, Duke 3d, and then I was done forever. But Unreal Tournament 2004 was too good to skip so I played that and had a lot of fun slaughtering people, especially in the Onslaught mode. I tried UT3 and it seemed shit in comparison. Nowadays the only FPS I play is Arma3 but that is only really for the tanks and choppers/planes. I wish there were better modes to support that though.

I can't imagine playing a competitive FPS anymore unless it is a lot bigger and more elaborate than anything that has gone before it. I tried Planetside 2 which was ok but still not quite what I had in mind. I'd rather play Mechwarrior Legends or similar.

 

[abija]

Most top level players in OW/CS are shitting all over the best Quake/UT had to offer in terms of thinking fast or reaction/reflexes. Skill ceiling is high enough and more importantly there is a big enough scene and large enough motivation for players to improve.
In fact, outside a very very small population of hardcore duelers quake/ut were played a lot more casually than cs or ow are played today.

 

[Jimmious]

When was the "state of competitive fps" good?

 

[anvi]

When was the "state of competitive fps" good?

Quakeworld Team Fortress

 

[Jimmious]

I always thought CS was the competitive FPS especially "back in the day".

 

[anvi]

It was the biggest, but it was the Calladooty of its day and came a few years after QW.

 

[Jimmious]

Ah come on CS had a high "skill ceiling". Really good players could do insane stuff.
Call of duty is like the FPS for 10 year olds at the moment

 

[anvi]

Higher skill ceiling but it was still the first one to go 'viral' and become the biggest and therefore one everyone else wanted to see it and try it, which makes it like CoD.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Most top level players in OW/CS are shitting all over the best Quake/UT had to offer in terms of thinking fast or reaction/reflexes. Skill ceiling is high enough and more importantly there is a big enough scene and large enough motivation for players to improve.
In fact, outside a very very small population of hardcore duelers quake/ut were played a lot more casually than cs or ow are played today.

I like the fanboy pulling out the ass comment about ow cs/ow players shitting on quake players. There are plenty of people who made it from quake to cs especially in 1.6 and plenty who didn't. I know examples of good quake players like cooler who didn't make it in ow that far and players like steel from cs who didn't make in in ow. I also know players who did. But most importantly the games are so fucking different they are insanely hard to switch between or even compare. OW is essentially a moba. It is also worth mentioning a megametric fuckton of player openly said that OW is trash and simply quit in the first few patches that includes ex pros from other games and streamers. Modern cs and quake are worlds apart as well. It would be a bit like comparing golf and basketball players tbh. Old quake/cs 1.6 pros are now old and require a real stable job to support families.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95w8XNyRj60 (not a fan just posting for citation) Kabal is good example of a player who played them all. Not only that but the interview gives you a very good idea what went into the heads of pro players at the time and through releases of new games. I,e yes they might have preferred quake but there was no money in it so they went back to cs and now ow.

Not sure if you understand this but a lot of games are played for money not because they are the best or even good. SF5 is a great example of the shittiest fighting game being also the most competitively played because of career one can make out of it. It is exact same with OW simply because its a blizzard game with a league and consequently lots of financial support. If you ask around the game is considered a joke in pro/streamer circles and while you won't find it publicly states outside of a few raging streamers, believe me there is no illusion that the game is played purely as a career move. In fact there is no other game i know where people hate it and keep playing its like stockholm or some shit at this point.

Now regarding reaction time. CS is literally ALL about reaction time and holding angles being a glorified camping hide and seek game with tactics. Yes no one will argue with you about reaction time being obviously predominant requirement in a game where you die to one bullet. That is precisely why the game is shit tho. Fast thinking - that you musta pulled out somewhere DEEEP out your ass dude.

 

[abija]

I didn't say quake players are bad, they are very talented, but you need actual competition to evolve which quake didn't provide. Cooller did great in ow for the work he put in. Same as rapha or dahang and obviously wins/akm. But the highest level played in OW (or CS) is on a different level than the top players ever reached in quake.

OW and CS aren't good competitive games just because of the money thrown at them but because they are solid games, with extremely high skill ceiling AND big enough playerbase AND developer support. You need the whole package.

If you think OW is a MOBA or CS is just camping(hide and seek) and reaction time you are obviously clueless about those 2 games yet keep bashing them.

Btw, I'm a quake fanboy (hell I even have over 600h in QC and couldn't play since last patch because of these mongoloid russian devs). I probably wouldn't bother with other shooters if we had a decent quake game (or even UT). But blaming their failure on other games "being made for casuals" or similar nonsese is just pure dumbfuckery. Quake and UT failed because of terrible devs and lack of interest/vision.

 

[Average Manatee]

I always thought CS was the competitive FPS especially "back in the day".

Significantly less emphasis on map control, movement, health/item management. Not as bad as the new shit but not at the level of Quake/Unreal Tournament. If CS was where the degeneration of competitive FPS stopped there wouldn't be as much complaints IMO.

OW and CS aren't good competitive games just because of the money thrown at them but because they are solid games, with extremely high skill ceiling AND big enough playerbase AND developer support. You need the whole package.

Ah yes, overwatch. The game with schrodinger's hitboxes that magically expand or contract to let you hit headshots whenever the game feels like it, as I recall?

 

[Jimmious]

Significantly less emphasis on map control, movement, health/item management. Not as bad as the new shit but not at the level of Quake/Unreal Tournament. If CS was where the degeneration of competitive FPS stopped there wouldn't be as much complaints IMO.

Quake and UT have almost no team play / team tactics compared to CS. I don't think there's a comparison there. For me that's already a big point in favor of CS.

 

[DakaSha V]

Higher skill ceiling but it was still the first one to go 'viral' and become the biggest and therefore one everyone else wanted to see it and try it, which makes it like CoD.

This alone deserves a dumbfuck tag

 

[anvi]

You're a dumb fuck for not even know what I'm comparing it to.

 

[agentorange]

Most top level players in OW/CS are shitting all over the best Quake/UT had to offer in terms of thinking fast or reaction/reflexes. Skill ceiling is high enough and more importantly there is a big enough scene and large enough motivation for players to improve.
In fact, outside a very very small population of hardcore duelers quake/ut were played a lot more casually than cs or ow are played today.

Reflexes really aren't that important in CS, especially not CSGO, unless, kind of ironically, you're the one or two people on the team with an AWP. There is skill involved in knowing weapon spray patterns and being able to control them but this is relatively easy to learn, low skill cap, and at a competitive level most people aren't gaining an advantage because they can control their spray better, since everyone at that level can control their spray. CS is far more about anticipation, lining up your shots, knowing where to put your cross-hair before a person comes around a corner or before you go around a corner. This of course involves map knowledge and feeds into map control but it requires less map control and knowledge than Quake simply because of the lack of item spawns and a general lack of verticality in the maps. Quake requires anticipation, reflex, item control, movement control (Quake is objectively a higher skill cap game simply because of the movement options available). I like CS and CSGO but saying that CSGO players are shitting on Quake and UT is beyond retarded.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

CSGO requires reflexes (Any game at competitive level requires this), recoil control (And this is not easy to manage), map knowledge (Skyboxes and stuff included), map control, money management & equipment management, teamplay and strategies. Overwatch requires teamplay, map knowledge and map control, knowledge about characters synergies and weakness (Picks and counterpicks), and the skills required to play changes depending what character/role are you playing. If you have watched some of the latest matches of the Overwatch league, then you'll notice the insane highlevel cap that the game actually has. Competitive Overwatch and casual Overwatch are miles of distance.

Game's popularity has nothing to do with their actual quality as games. That said, people will not play for long games that are actually boring and uninteresting. No matter how many budget you put in a shit game to be played, if it is boring the hype will die soon. Reason because games so controversial like Street fighter V (Which completely fucked up relating to the casual audience) successes is because they are well designed as competitive games, and then a lot of people are attracted to play them. Nowadays there's a very wide offer of multiplayer games to play and to be competitive at. Money and promotion is simply just not enough to engage people. But of course, without proper promotion nobody will know you game, no matter how good it is. So you must have both, quality and promotion to success.

Btw comparing games for being more "hardcore" is supreme retardation, schoolyard discussions.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

I didn't say quake players are bad, they are very talented, but you need actual competition to evolve which quake didn't provide. Cooller did great in ow for the work he put in. Same as rapha or dahang and obviously wins/akm. But the highest level played in OW (or CS) is on a different level than the top players ever reached in quake.

OW and CS aren't good competitive games just because of the money thrown at them but because they are solid games, with extremely high skill ceiling AND big enough playerbase AND developer support. You need the whole package.

If you think OW is a MOBA or CS is just camping(hide and seek) and reaction time you are obviously clueless about those 2 games yet keep bashing them.

Btw, I'm a quake fanboy (hell I even have over 600h in QC and couldn't play since last patch because of these mongoloid russian devs). I probably wouldn't bother with other shooters if we had a decent quake game (or even UT). But blaming their failure on other games "being made for casuals" or similar nonsese is just pure dumbfuckery. Quake and UT failed because of terrible devs and lack of interest/vision.

I agree that cs is a solid game even though I am not a fan of it and I never even talked shit about it in my op. I used it as one of examples of good games even though I am not a fan. OW is a very polished game in terms of animations and graphics but the devs can't balance it for crap. Every new patch is released with even more bad casual balancing and bad heroes. Orisa, doomfist, moira and w.e shit they keep releasing lately is absolute casual garbage of heroes. OW COULD BE good and i enjoyed it immensely when it just came out but by season 5 it was such dogshit I couldn't take it anymore. I think the last bit of my friends who played since launch quit when junkrat/mercy became mandatory every fucking game.

And I am not even saying quake is good. Quake also has its problems but instead of improving on formulas of tfc, cs, quake they legit keep copying the problems and adding 1000s of their own. This is why its a decline.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

CSGO requires reflexes (Any game at competitive level requires this), recoil control (And this is not easy to manage), map knowledge (Skyboxes and stuff included), map control, money management & equipment management, teamplay and strategies. Overwatch requires teamplay, map knowledge and map control, knowledge about characters synergies and weakness (Picks and counterpicks), and the skills required to play changes depending what character/role are you playing. If you have watched some of the latest matches of the Overwatch league, then you'll notice the insane highlevel cap that the game actually has. Competitive Overwatch and casual Overwatch are miles of distance.

Btw comparing games for being more "hardcore" is supreme retardation, schoolyard discussions.

You know that game where people fold/build plastic cups really really fast? I can't do it nearly as fast and I am sure its actually really hard and has high skillcrap. It is still dogshit game and activity. We already have good complex interesting moba like dota 2 and good shooters. OW is literally shit version of both. Its moba elements are fucked by lack of hard cooldowns and braindead ults. Its fps elements are fucked by absurd amout of healing, shields, and anti carry like dva oh not to mention half the hero pool either does not require you to have aim at all or does not require precision.

Oh and the irony of you mentioning watching league which had so little impressive moments I fell asleep after yet another genji swinging his dick back and forth that they call skill.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Any game can be played at a competitive level. Call of Duty has a competitive scene and the skill there is far beyond what you'll see from a casual player. But I still think it's fairly casual. Same thing with Overwatch; I know several pros and they all say that they only play it because they can't make a living off of Team Fortress 2 or Quake and they don't want to play CS.

And I am not even saying quake is good. Quake also has its problems but instead of improving on formulas of tfc, cs, quake they legit keep copying the problems and adding 1000s of their own. This is why its a decline.

I mean, they kind of did. The things that killed Team Fortress Classic (and it was dead the day CS came out, well before TF2) was 1) grenade spam, 2) it was really fucking hard to push through defenses, and 3) that it was so mobility-focused that new players would just get stomped into the ground all day. So TF2 removed grenades, retooled Medic and Spy to be better at breaking stalemates, and nerfed advanced mobility (without removing it completely, unlike Overwatch).

I think the reality is that CS and an improved version of TF2 (where the devs don't actively undermine its comp scene) are the most "hardcore" comp shooters you can hope for. It's nice to think of a world where Quake and Tribes and such are king, but multiplayer games live and die by their casual communities so it has to be approachable.[/QUOTE]

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Grenades were fun as shit especially conc and definitely shoulda been balanced more but their removal made the game more boring imo. Yeah seeing good offense able to do all the crazy jumps and bhop was really impressive, fun to do and pleasure to watch. TF2 added invulnerable medic bullshit which is the most retarded shit i've seen done to a game and didn't belong anywhere close in the game. But some things were indeed better in tf2.

Sigh this vid brings back so many memories. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRrjh8yp5yE

 

[abija]

Did you mongos ever watch any high level cs or ow? Because sure as hell you argue like people who watched their friends play once (while jerking daily over that rapha esl commentary).

I know several pros and they all say that they only play it because they can't make a living off of Team Fortress 2 or Quake and they don't want to play CS.

No you don't.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Did you mongos ever watch any high level cs or ow? Because sure as hell you argue like people who watched their friends play once (while jerking daily over that rapha esl commentary).

I am literally gold border gm every season ow player. Quit for two seasons now. I AM ASHAMED OF playing it. Don't give me that shit.

What makes me even more of a cunt is I boosted hundreds of people with my friend. HUNDREDS. Fuck that shit game. Also fuck me for doing it but it was ez money don't judge.

 

[abija]

So you're almost 30 years old and think boosting hundreds of people in OW is/was easy money? Could you be more of a cliche troll?