Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Jezal_k23]

Moreover, I would like Obsidian to expand on the wound system to give certain enemies the ability to wound a character without the need to knock out a character (e.g., when the Titan Watcher throws a character, have the throw produce a wound) . In conjunction, I would give Priests and Druids limited means to remove wounds in combat (high level ability), and give Fighters/Paladins a way to shrug off wounds (again, I would make it a high level ability).

These sound like really good ideas to me. I hope they go forward with it along these lines rather than listening to the people who think the system is too punishing now. Or just do these things on higher difficulties.

 

[CptMace]

I'll step forward and dare to say what most people think. PoE2 is a solid candidate to the 10 best crpg beta access of all time.

List 10 crpgs that have/had beta access

Good point, Quillon !

 

[Reinhardt]

I'll step forward and dare to say what most people think. PoE2 is a solid candidate to the 10 best crpg beta access of all time.

List 10 crpgs that have/had beta access

Good point, Quillon !

Every released rpg game in last years was paid beta at best .

 

[Azarkon]

I can say that PoE is about the destruction of the family unit and it will ring as true as that, i.e. not true at all. "What if we can assured of nothing?" is not nihilistic, it's what Descartes asked many centuries ago. Nothing of this is ever explored, Iovara asking a question does not constitute a theme or exploration of it. She falls flat in many different ways, she doesn't make sense at all and you shouldn't look to her for a theme. Otherwise, I agree that Eder doesn't have the dramatic presence in the story to sell whatever he's trying to sell. Whether that be independence from gods or finding meaning in human potential. Such grand themes, yet sound so laughable in the context of PoE.

How does the destruction of the family unit reflect the main conflict of the game - ie that between Thaos, Iovara, and the player character? They aren't family. They're members of an organization whose sole purpose was to ensure that the world never found out that the gods were false. The game isn't about embracing nihilism, it's about dealing with the concept. But you don't have to take my word for it. Here's the interview the Codex did with Fenstermaker concerning the narrative of the game:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10231

Josh Sawyer has been the public face of Pillars of Eternity, on Internet forums, social media and in interviews. As such, in-depth public discussion has tended to focus on the game's system design and its setting - the things Josh was responsible for. We actually know remarkably little about the hows and whys of Pillars of Eternity's story, characters and themes. Which is of course the reason we decided to do this interview.

So, before we go on to more specific questions, I'd like to ask you to, basically, show your work. What themes and concepts did you intend to explore in Pillars of Eternity? Which quests and which characters are you particularly proud of and how did they reinforce those themes? In short, what's smart about the story of Pillars of Eternity?

I hesitate to talk a whole lot in very specific terms about themes and deeper meaning because people will start to use it as definitive evidence of this or that, and it deadens discussion. I'll say a bit, but you'll have to excuse my being cagey here. Also in order to answer this, fair warning, there will be major spoilers.

We had two major themes we wanted to work with, both of which seemed natural and important to discuss for this particular story and setting. I'll suggest that people who think one of them is about faith might want to broaden their perspective a bit. Both themes are present in the player's story and at least one is present in each companion's story, though which theme it is varies. White March (taken as a whole) puts a spin on both, but tends to focus on one in particular.

Part of the genesis of the Pillars story in particular was the observation that in most fantasy settings, the gods are taken for granted. You know they're up there on Olympus or in the heavens or wherever, and you have some idea of how your afterlife is going to look, and what steps you have to take to improve your standing in that regard. Characters in these worlds, on some level, aren't quite human if they don't have to wonder about these things. It's a romantic and appealing fantasy to have all of that figured out and to only need to worry about killing your enemies and pleasing your gods and boning other similarly carefree and attractive violet-eyed adventurers, and that's resulted in the prevalence of that kind of setting within the genre. But if you go that route you miss out on one of the best ways to test your characters and see what they are made out of, and you also miss out on a powerful source of relatability that just about every other genre has access to (and futuristic sci-fi often thrives on).

This wasn't an idea that came about immediately, even when writing what would become he final treatment, but when it did, it led to the game story as you see it now.

...

It's obvious what the game is about and what it's built around, as soon as you apply a bit of actual analysis, and I would also argue that the game DID develop its central theme to a valid conclusion - which was ultimately up to the player. Whether it succeeded in presenting all of this in an effective dramatic fashion is a different question. What made a game like Planescape: Torment work so well was that it could combine its high concepts and themes with a very human and emotionally powerful story of guilt, love, and redemption. Pillars of Eternity failed at this and that's why it failed as a narrative.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, I know what they claim the themes are, in practice -

There are many things wrong with the setting's gods and how the people in it relate to those gods. There is no strive to be as them, most myths irl are about how humanity tries to be relevant in a world of gods, in the end seeing God/gods in themselves through Apotheosis (I kinda hate Campbell's Monomyth, but let's go with that). Or Lovecraft's spin on that, where humanity is nothing like the gods and will forever be merely a footnote to them, if that. In PoE, it's fucking nothing. It's not about taking the gods for granted, that's an absurd notion that misses the point so much it hurts. Even if we go with that, what's the payoff, what are they trying to prove? Only Durance has some kind of valid relationship to his goddess, everyone else treats them as authority figures no better than a king. Pallegina even talks down to Hylea, which also goes nowhere, btw.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh look, somebody gave Pope Amole II a beta key.

 

[Salvo]

Oh look, somebody gave Pope Amole II a beta key.

All I can hear is an angry CS:GO pro.

 

[CptMace]

Oh look, somebody gave Pope Amole II a beta key.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will be enough to shut the disgusting rumors about your people down. Kind gesture though.

 

[Lacrymas]

I like how the character creation gives differing information about attributes on the same screen. When you hover over an attribute, it says the average is 10, but the "attribute chart" below that says 4-8 is average. Make up your mind, game.

 

[CptMace]

The average score is 10, but the average peasant barely has more than 8, silly.
What's funny though, is how you have to display heroic caracteristics in order to find a solution to the grain problem in POE1 that doesn't involve murdering the dwarf

 

[Azarkon]

Yeah, I know what they claim the themes are, in practice -

There are many things wrong with the setting's gods and how the people in it relate to those gods. There is no strive to be as them, most myths irl are about how humanity tries to be relevant in a world of gods, in the end seeing God/gods in themselves through Apotheosis (I kinda hate Campbell's Monomyth, but let's go with that). Or Lovecraft's spin on that, where humanity is nothing like the gods and will forever be merely a footnote to them, if that. In PoE, it's fucking nothing. It's not about taking the gods for granted, that's an absurd notion that misses the point so much it hurts. Even if we go with that, what's the payoff, what are they trying to prove? Only Durance has some kind of valid relationship to his goddess, everyone else treats them as authority figures no better than a king. Pallegina even talks down to Hylea, which also goes nowhere, btw.

The main conflict is about the gods but the theme of the game isn't specifically about the gods. Remember what Fensternmaker said?

I'll suggest that people who think one of them is about faith might want to broaden their perspective a bit.

I'm pretty sure a dude from the Codex wrote like a two page essay about this. Here, I found it: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...assured-of-nothing-heavy-poe-spoilers.107148/

This is why I said, earlier, that the theme relevant to Eder can be better described by Iovara's question, as opposed to a simple crisis of faith.

The game is about the loss of meaning in a world in which you cannot be assured of anything. You can think of it as Descartes: The Game, except that the concern isn't so much about whether existence or consciousness is imagined, but rather, with the ultimate lack of meaning. It's a very modern concern, and that's driven home again by the characters being more similar to guys you might meet in a liberal arts university, than adventurers in high fantasy.

As a dramatic narrative, it didn't work, but to say that the game spends no effort developing its themes or that there's no pay off conceptually, is to miss what the game is about. There IS pay off, in the sense that each character ultimately chooses to react, one way or another, to the loss of meaning either by creating their own, going back to what they've always believed, or committing suicide. But it's presented in such a boring way that people have a hard time even paying attention to it.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Oh look, somebody gave Pope Amole II a beta key.

There's a thank you inside even if you probably won't understand it, lol.

I'll make an english one tomorrow - I'm pretty sick right now so doing too much vids in one day is too hard.

 

[Lacrymas]

snip

Wow, that's quite some reaching right there. Apophenia and all that. I really have no other response to that, I don't see that at all, let alone it having a payoff. You can say that about any narrative ever that doesn't end with the characters literally not finding any meaning in anything.

 

[Azarkon]

snip

Wow, that's quite some reaching right there. Apophenia and all that. I really have no other response to that, I don't see that at all, let alone it having a payoff. You can say that about any narrative ever that doesn't end with the characters literally not finding any meaning in anything.

There's a difference between reaching for a conclusion, and having it thrown in your face. Yes, it's hard to read anything from anything when you simply don't care for it and your eyes gloss right over the words out of boredom. In fact, I had a hard time reading anything from the game as well, because I couldn't even finish it. But the structural connections and patterns are still there, whether we choose to receive them or not. This became obvious once I started applying a bit more analysis to the narrative. I suggest just looking up how each companions' quests could end, and see how it all fits together, beyond that there's not much more to say.

 

[Grotesque]

Oh look, somebody gave Pope Amole II a beta key.

Fighting Putin with kindness, one step at a time!

 

[Jezal_k23]

I have an urge to try out the beta every time I see a video of it, even one in russian which I can't understand a word of, and yet I can't bring myself to pay $20 for it. It's too much damn it.

 

[Iznaliu]

She must have been the love interest until they scraped the idea

I think that says more about you and your romantic success than it says about PoE and its writers.

 

[Kaivokz]

Finally got around to the beta. Didn't play much, messed around on a devoted/rogue. Tried a single class wizard.

The new music is good. The staccato strings during character creation are a nice touch and I don't remember any neat softer dynamics like that in the first game.

Beard models are dramatically increased in quality.

The new book interface for scripted events is very reminiscent of early Baldur's Gate style art. I dig it.

Poses are a nice touch. I particularly like heroic, roguish, stoic, and hunched.

The loading screen pipe is nice.

Recovery and attack times are MUCH more transparent now. Values are shown for each, including which modifiers affect them. Now, for example, it's very easy to see that wearing heavy armor while dual wielding is not as impactful as when using a two handed weapon. e.g. a fighter wielding dual sabers goes from 0.4 recovery to 0.5 when wearing -50% speed armor. It is also clear that attack speed is not affected, only recovery speed.

Without general talents, I think most characters will still end up with more build options than in the first game because they have subclasses. General talents would be nice, though.

Glad to see Wizard specializations are more interesting than "+caster level for X spells, can't use Y, Z spells" -- though some seem better than others. Illusionists get a triggered mirror image, but lose many of the spells that make them want to be in the fray to begin with (e.g. weapon summoning spells)?

I also didn't feel like wizards were especially underpowered; their spells still feel quite strong and the increased cast timers make them less micro-managey, but still tactical, especially with re-targeting of spells.

Might give the island a proper run through if I find the time.

 

[FreeKaner]

Recovery speed not affecting using two weapons and with armour being percentage reduction now two-handed weapons might be really subpar.

 

[fantadomat]

She must have been the love interest until they scraped the idea

I think that says more about you and your romantic success than it says about PoE and its writers.

WTF?!?!?!

 

[Reinhardt]

I'm pretty sick right now so doing too much vids in one day is too hard.

That's why you did not equipped rings and cape?

 

[Quillon]

The new music is good.

Sounds like the combat tracks are not so jarring as they were in the first game, prolly be a long while when/if they get old/annoying.

Spoiler

 

[jungl]

third one sound like something you hear play from a turok multiplayer deathmatch.

 

[Mazisky]

Those are clearly incomplete just like they were in POE1 beta. I'm pretty sure the final version tracks will be much different (strings added, etc.)

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

So, is it meh, or shit?