Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Roguey]

But TToN is tiny compared to PoE, which can't have cost much more. And PoE has much higher quality art, and so presumably was more expensive to produce. The issue isn't Saunders' ambitions, it's that the money disappeared down a black hole with nothing to show in return.

PoE's precise budget was given in one of those Fig-required reports, it was something like 5.something million. Yes, it was an issue of ambition, because they presumably spent a lot of time/money in the first two years working on content/features that had to be cut to meet the new, shorter deadline.

 

[Ismaul]

After Divinity: Original Sin, after it became clear that players valued mechanics over walls of text.

No. We value quality, one thing done well, be it mechanics or dialogue or C&C, even if other flaws are present.

Problem is some games built on one thing as a main feature went for quantity over quality.

 

[Ismaul]

Torment's going to be in the "instant controversy" space

"Major disappointments" is way more likely.

 

[Iznaliu]

In next year's rpgoty poll, Torment's going to be in the "instant controversy" space

It will be in the "major disappointment" space, IMHO.

 

[Roguey]

Jinx.

I will be aghast if the Codex as a whole puts ToN on the same level as the likes of ME3, Diablo 3, Fallout 4. I believe right now we're at the stage where everyone who mildly enjoyed a thing have moved on, so the only people left who care enough to discuss it are those who really disliked it. Happens all the time.

 

[Iznaliu]

I will be aghast if the Codex as a whole puts ToN on the same level as the likes of ME3, Diablo 3, Fallout 4

Well it's going to happen due to the massive hatejerk against this game.

 

[v1rus]

Do they still plan to add cut content, like they did with Oom?

This was an honest question, actually.

I mean, the game was already a known flop and disaster when they added Oom, wasnt it?

 

[Lacrymas]

ME3, D3 and FO4 aren't RPGs, so we can safely put ToN in the equivalent RPG space.

 

[Ismaul]

I believe right now we're at the stage where everyone who mildly enjoyed a thing have moved on, so the only people left who care enough to discuss it are those who really disliked it. Happens all the time.

And I guess you and Infinishill are the exception that confirms the rule? You're almost half the people discussing this; why didn't you move on? Or did you dislike the game and are just here to troll people that were disappointed, to extract some delicious maximum butthurt? If so, carry on, avatar checks out.

Btw if Numenera was even enjoyable at all, the discussion would be totally different. We still talk about Torment to this day, and with those nostalgia goggles you think we all wear, we'd be hyping the shit out of Numenera if it had any merit. I wanted nothing more than to love it when I backed it.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not as confident as Roguey about the results of the GOTY poll, but I do feel that when the game was released, the median reception was not so much "This is game is horrible" (although there was plenty of that) as it was "This game really should have been better". But it's anyone's guess how people will feel about it ten months later. Too bad we didn't have a poll thread about it like we did with PoE (did we?)

 

[passerby]

Tides of Numenera is free to play at this very moment through tomorrow (and on sale for about $20), but the peak concurrent users was a mere 492. More people played freaking Tyranny today even though it's $18.

Well fuck, you are actually right.
Tyranny is a great example of similar and comparably underwhelming game, released in the same time frame, in the same saturated market.
You can find more examples: Baldur's Gate vs Torment, Geneforge vs Avernum. If you have two very similar games, than original and interesting, meaningfull setting seems to have at least -50% sales modifier.

Majority of rpg players are dorks and manchildren. Anything more original and ambitious than generic fantasy and twilight tier character drama puts them off.
It is even more pronounced in pnp market, because if you have one, or two out of four players in the group interested in the setting it still mean no game/ no sale.
Probably Planescape setting was order of magnitude more niche on its market, than P:T game on crpg market.

Interesting statistic was revealed by steam spy guy when D:OS, W2 and PoE were around 500k, but playerbase that owned them all was below 100k.
Basically every year you have newcomers who try the genre only to find it's not for them/ grew up and move on from gaming. Then you have seasoned gamers with little interest in rpgs, who rarely pick one.

Then you have core rpgs player base that is willing to buy few of them every year, it seems to be around 100 - 200k worldwide.
These are the only people for whom original setting is a plus, or at least not an instant turn off.
With a budget below 1M$ and below 100k sales aim, being original can pay off. Here AoD, or Underrail succeded, while latest Avadon sales are very poor.
Because people who play few rpgs every year, but are still not fed up with generic fantasy yet, have multiple offerings with better production values and gameplay these days.

But Geneforge remake wouldn't fare any beter imo, since Avernum remakes were sold mostly to new players.
There is so few games with unique setting, that after all sales and bundles, most of interested players already played Geneforge.
New series from Vogel, but as unique as Geneforge could potentially do better than Avadon 3 does.

Anyway, if developpers pay atention, we won't see unique settings in AA rpgs.

 

[Roguey]

Do they still plan to add cut content, like they did with Oom?

This was an honest question, actually.

I mean, the game was already a known flop and disaster when they added Oom, wasnt it?

Correct. They will no longer be throwing money down the drain with this, they're putting all their efforts into Bard's Tale IV, Wasteland 3, and whatever wacky get-money ideas Fargo has.

I'm glad they threw money down the drain for Oom, though, it's great. It's like having Josh Sawyer in your party since it tells you which dialogue options affect which tides and which responses you get from NPCs that you received because of your dominant tides.

ME3, D3 and FO4 aren't RPGs, so we can safely put ToN in the equivalent RPG space.

That's not so much the RPG space as it is the "games hardly anyone on the Codex played" space. No way is ToN in that area. It's going to be above 50% on the vertical axis guaranteed.

And I guess you and Infinishill are the exception that confirms the rule? You're almost half the people discussing this; why didn't you move on?

I didn't even play it until this month, which was the smart move to make. I suppose I could have played it any time after May, but I was busy with Oblivion and such.

 

[Ismaul]

I will be aghast if the Codex as a whole puts ToN on the same level as the likes of ME3, Diablo 3, Fallout 4.

I don't see why it would be surprising that a game that caused major butthurt would join those ranks. In what way is it different than those other games? ME3 isn't a technical disaster, and neither is D3 or F4. What they have in common is that they went against many of the audience's expectations, and were dumbed down compared to the previous games in the series.

I'm not as confident as Roguey about the results of the GOTY poll, but I do feel that when the game was released, the median reception was not so much "This is game is horrible" (although there was plenty of that) as it was "This game really should have been better". But it's anyone's guess how people will feel about it ten months later. Too bad we didn't have a poll thread about it like we did with PoE (did we?)

A poll on release isn't always representative of the long term reception. Hype colors things, first impressions might be hasty, and 10 months later more people will have played it. All this might change the reception positively or negatively. Looks to me though that Numenera didn't benefit from the extra time. Numenera is by no means absolutely 'horrible', it just isn't competent at anything it did, and its incompetence is always in your face; 1 million words worth of it. There is no skipping or putting up with the shit to get to the good stuff. In contrast, ME:Andromeda and DA:Inquisition at least provided some lulz on release.

 

[Roguey]

I don't see why it would be surprising that a game that caused major butthurt would join those ranks. In what way is it different than those other games? ME3 isn't a technical disaster, and neither is D3 or F4. What they have in common is that they went against many of the audience's expectations, and were dumbed down compared to the previous games in the series.

ToN worse than Dead Man's Switch though? As far as I'm concerned, the only thing DMS does better is narrative/combat pacing, and that's because it's completely linear.

 

[Ismaul]

ToN worse than Dead Man's Switch though?

It's all about expectations. Nobody expected SR:R to be as competent as it was. I didn't even back it, and I backed all the other shit. But it benefitted from being first of the old-school nu-wave, first to bring back minimally competent and fun turn-based combat, first to bring back iso perspective and do it well, all in a rarely exploited but classic PnP cyberpunk setting. The story might've been subpar, especially part 2 (I liked the first part), it might've been linear, and it had technical limitations as a tablet game, yet it was enjoyable for what it was, and even exceeded the low expectations many had. And, like you said, it had better narrative/combat pacing. All this with a shit budget and from an unknown company. It wasn't a great game, but it was a very promising first entry, and showed the devs cared and were willing to outdo themselves. Numenera has none of those mitigating factors.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

It was important to be trad for a BG/IWD successor, just as it was important to be off-beat and weird with a Torment successor. Both did so. The setting-grogs hating on Numenera come across to me as pedantic as the people who like Forgotten Realms better than Eora. I don't think they represent a majority.

I wrote before the release of T:ToN that it would demonstrate the difference between a David Zeb Cook setting and a Monte Cook setting, as well as the difference between a game written by Chris Avellone and one written by Colin McComb. One RPG with a weird, unconventional setting and copious quantities of text is not necessarily equivalent to another RPG with a weird, unconventional setting and copious quantities of text.

That said, if Interplay hadn't acquired the license for the Planescape setting, something that occurred due to the enthusiasm of Brian Fargo for this particular setting, then Planescape: Torment might instead have been Shadowdale: Torment, with Elminster making an appearance; it would have sold twice as many copies, but not have been half the game it was. Even back then, there was a strong preference amongst the mass of RPGers for bland, generic, quasi-medieval fantasy settings, which is why the Forgotten Realms has persisted as the most popular D&D setting for three decades over its worthier competitors.

 

[LESS T_T]

Heh, ToN's free weekend deal has no place in the Steam front page, unlike the other game doing free weekend at the same time (Helldivers, a co-op topdown shooter). Checked the section with signed in and out, and with different country codes, selections are slightly differ per country but no ToN in any country I checked.

Spoiler

I *think* the selection is by algorithm weighted to special deals and popular games.

It also doesn't show in Steam client's news pop up (which likely manually selected by Valve) unlike Helldivers.

 

[StaticSpine]

ToN worse than Dead Man's Switch though? As far as I'm concerned, the only thing DMS does better is narrative/combat pacing, and that's because it's completely linear.

Oh yes it is! SRR is simply more fun to play. HBS screwed the story when it turned to spiritual bugs nonsense, though it was almost the end of the game. And once again I have to get back to combat systems - SRR has a much better one.

And one other thing I must add: I was a TToN backer/fanboy and tried to defend it when the sea of criticism was covering it here. I also wanted to replay the game once again, but after a year even considering InXile added some cut content I just don't want to touch it. Of course TToN is not the worst game ever, but I didn't deliver what was promised/expected. On the other hand I didn't even back SRR and knew nothing about it before I bought it.

I also wanted to mention your point about extremely positive press reception, which didn't help to build up decent sales. This is pretty interesting. The hype surprisingly didn't bring more players.

 

[Jarpie]

ITT Lacrymas finds out that Rougay is autistic aspie.

 

[Prime Junta]

Roguey is right a lot of the time though.

I honestly don't know how I would experience T:ToN if I played it with zero expectations, although it would certainly lessen the intensity of my dislike for it.

But then I don't know how much it matters. "Don't shoot at the king and miss," as somebody here succinctly put it.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, after checking out the T:ToN credits I assumed a lot of your bitterness stems from dropping at least $125 on a great disappointment.

I also wanted to mention your point about extremely positive press reception, which didn't help to build up decent sales. This is pretty interesting. The hype surprisingly didn't bring more players.

Same thing happened with original Torment and Psychonauts, probably others. Game journalists are good for validation, but they don't move sales.

 

[Sizzle]

A big indication of the amount of wasted budget for T:ToN were all those (often fully animated) screens and areas (the underwater city, for example), which were completely cut, even though it was obvious a huge amount of work already went into them.

Or the - what was it - three times they changed the portrait art for the major characters, somehow each subsequent version being worse than the last?

Now compare that to PoE - even though it's obvious it was a much more efficiently run project (say what you will about Sawyer, but he is very good about managing realistic (if not always good) game expectations and features), almost everything they've ever shown during KS updates made its way into the finished game in way or another.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah, we need to get MCA and JES together so they can make a baby. Zhe would combine the creativity and passion of MCA with the Teutonic focus and organisational skills of JES and it would be heavan.

Spoiler

Sucks to zir if it goes the other way around though .

 

[FeelTheRads]

Zhe would combine the creativity and passion of MCA with the Teutonic focus and organisational skills of JES and it would be heavan.

Except that's just a dream. In practice you can't get real creativity and passion under organizational constraints.

Guess it's down to what you want. I'd take passion over checklists (as in "almost everything they've ever shown during KS updates made its way into the finished game in way or another."). TToN wouldn't have been much better if they just checked every item on their list in one way or another.

It turns out that in the end publisher funded small projects (the likes of Fallout) were still the best of both worlds. You know, like exactly what's not being done anymore.

 

[Roguey]

It turns out that in the end publisher funded small projects (the likes of Fallout) were still the best of both worlds. You know, like exactly what's not being done anymore.

How was the initial development process of Kevin Saunders's Torment different from Tim Cain's Fallout? In both cases, Fargo just let a guy do whatever he wanted with no oversight for years.