Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ushas]

Hm. Indeed, the player's speed is part of the tactics in RT combat, not so in TB. Both being different tactical beasts. I tought the original idea with time flow in PoE was actually to put Pause on top of RT, or am I wrong?

Playing the BBv392 I also wonder, if the combat would be better in a TB setup. Now, I'm not sure why. Perhaps because of a slightly chaotic feedback, engagement and abilities such as AOE spells, or lack of distance sense (eg. if a character has to get closer to use an ability)...

In case of AOE spells: In many battles, I decided to wait for everybody to settle before casting AOE damaging/debuffing spells. To make sure the red ones are still doomed and the green ones don't go into the area (sometimes it's hard to say for me where is the exact boundary of the ongoing aoe effect).

Initially, I thought It would be easier If we can fire those spells immediately and maybe prolong the recovery time afterwards (but interrupt/concentration would not work), as I didn't managed to build the high Dexterity (Action Speed) caster to catch up with running and attacking targets. However, the "slowdown/walk" idea of Sensuki and others is definitely better.

Nevertheless, if I take it, there are going to be a lot of changes/bugfixing in the next beta, ... For example, it would mean a lot of difference, if the enemy-only AOE spells are solved consistently:
In the current Beta, after casting period of time, some of them were targeting original area and some of them were tracking the targeted enemies (~got updated with enemies positions) -> which is more helpful, as allies are safe anyway.

It could be also interesting to play with a high Perception/Intelligence + high Stealth caster as an initiator of fights by a nasty AOE. Unfortunately, there is not Distance boost on Perception any more in the future, isn't it?

 

[tuluse]

Nevertheless, if I take it, there are going to be a lot of changes/bugfixing in the next beta, ... For example, it would mean a lot of difference, if the enemy-only AOE spells are solved consistently:
In the current Beta, after casting period of time, some of them were targeting original area and some of them were tracking the targeted enemies (~got updated with enemies positions) -> which is more helpful, as allies are safe anyway.

Doesn't this depend if you target an enemy or target the ground?

 

[GordonHalfman]

Being able to move during the recovery of an action doesn't seem particularly un-RTS like. Or even that different from PoE, which does add a recovery penalty for moving, for ranged attacks at least and possibly spells too I can't remember. A rule that doesn't seem to change a whole lot.

It would be helpful to know the exact circumstances you could lose attacks in the IE games. Anthony Davies post appears to be about NWN1 and it's issues with AoOs and the "dance of death" and so on.

 

[ushas]

Doesn't this depend if you target an enemy or target the ground?

You are right, that could be interesting. Do AoE spells work for you like that?
If recall correctly, I tried several times different targeting, eg. center the mouse cursor/aoe on the enemy or on the ground, if that's what you have on mind. The behaviour probably didn't change in tested instances, but there was a confusion and I didn't dig deep. I will definitely try it for the next Beta. As it's possible the targeting may not work for me correctly, or some individual spell bugs...

I think, examples of two spells which may work differently are Divine Terror and Shining Beacon (Priest).

 

[Infinitron]

Being able to move during the recovery of an action doesn't seem particularly un-RTS like.

What's un-RTS-like is not being able to do anything ELSE during that time (like drink a potion or whatever)

 

[Athelas]

You can kite.

 

[ushas]

Shouldn't moving pause the recovery, or does some penalty just prolong the recovery time, now?
There is this talent:
Shot on the Run: +25% Ranged Recovery when moving

 

[aeonsim]

Damn if the bit about AoK's path finding code is correct it certainly explains why it worked so well and how many modern games have been pretty crap. ~20,000 lines of assembly code is insane, 20K lines of C would be impressive enough but for a pathfinding system (though being higher level you probably wouldn't need that much), but to do it in assembly code is crazy impressive.

aoe's pathfinding worked well because a) units were allowed to clip into eachother b) it was tile-based. 20k lines of assembly is a sign of the times, and probably the only way they could get pathfinding to work for hundreds of units on 1990s-era home pcs. an equivalent implementation in 2014 would probably be a few hundred lines, just because things like 'recalculate everyone's paths every time someone drops a building' are now perfectly reasonable

Yeah but consider how much 20K lines of assembly would have cost with regards to developer time and total code written for the project and I suspect it'd be alot higher than the fraction of the budget alot of modern games but into it. I suspect a lot of modern games just import some basic pathing library and pretty much leave it as that rather than writing hand optimised code that meets there exact requirements.

 

[Rostere]

I did not answer my own post.

You asked skeptically for people being hit by lightning inside a Faraday suit and then you responded yourself with videos of people inside faraday suits being hit by lightning from a tesla coil which is probably around 0,5 - 1 MV.

It appears as you are in part arguing against yourself. There are a few stupid remarks you have made which make me question whether you know anything about physics at all - you respond negatively to other posters' statements about things like for example there being zero surface charge on a cavity inside a conductor.

Yeah, in theory, as long as the lightning is strong enough, you could melt a Faraday's cage. But if you have access to that strong lightning, you would pretty much rule the world. You can of course also destroy anything which would for all practical purposes be heat and fire resistant by pushing it into a volcano. But that might also be off limits for what is relevant for game purposes.

I think you are also overrating the strength of "natural" lightning (which in any case is also very varied). People in cars forming Faraday's cages have been hit by lightning innumerable times, most often with the only visible damage on the wheels.

None whatsoever.

Damn, I through I could bait you into writing something really stupid there. It's like you were about to say that people inside cars were also protected from lightning due to the insulation from the rubber tyres.

thats not what the Man said.

But i guess you know better then him, right?

You shouldn't put so much trust in what random electricity workers say on TV (in any case I don't disagree with anything that was said by him, only with you, who appear to be arguing that Faraday suits does not work or something...). I'm not sure the person in question understands the physics behind what he is doing to 100%. If you still feel you do not understand how a Faraday cage works you are welcome ask questions at http://physics.stackexchange.com/ as I have linked to before.

Yes, yes, its all different phenomena...

Yes.

In theory, a repair worker would be safe to hang from one power line, just like a bird. He would only be hurt when the electricity would flow through him, which it would do either if:

1. He gets too close to another power line of different phase.
2. He gets too close to ground.

This is a slightly different phenomenon from the one behind the Faraday cage, where the current takes an easier path around an object (typically a metal cage), thus giving exactly zero potential inside. You can read more of this elsewhere.

In any case, having even an imperfect Faraday cage would be of help, since the current will prefer to flow through the metal rather than your body. However trying to translate this to game rules quickly gets more complicated - wearing a breastplate would perhaps shield the organs in your abdomen, but not to 100%, and your legs would be slightly worse off than with no breastplate at all.

 

[hiver]

As expected and usual, the butthurt makes retard like you go into elaborate self convulsions and inventions of idiotic strawman arguments - literally equaling this:

great view there, isnt it?

It appears as you are in part arguing against yourself.

who gives a flying fuck what appears to a stupid shit like you?

seriously.

you respond negatively to other posters' statements about things like for example there being zero surface charge on a cavity inside a conductor.

Quote that you stupid imbecilic turd.

Damn, I through I could bait you into writing something really stupid there.

You fulfill that role superbly and completely unwittingly.

It's like you were about to say that people inside cars were also protected from lightning due to the insulation from the rubber tyres.

YUP! OBVIOS ISNT IT TURD?

You shouldn't put so much trust in what random electricity workers say on TV

NOOOO we should put trust into imbecilic super cretinous morons like you!
Not in what a gay that works in a FARADAY SUIT EVERY FUCKING DAY SAYS.

in any case I don't disagree with anything that was said by him, only with you, who appear to be arguing that Faraday suits does not work or something

that can only APPEAR to a complete defected imbecile like yourself.

In theory, a repair worker would be safe to hang from one power line, just like a bird. He would only be hurt when the electricity would flow through him, which it would do either if:
- He gets too close to ground.

Thats right, dumbfuck. Cretin. Moron. Imbecile. RETARD!

Even the guy in your own video is standing on some big box that looks like rubber, not directly on the ground - shitbrain!

This is a slightly different phenomenon from the one behind the Faraday cage, where the current takes an easier path around an object (typically a metal cage), thus giving exactly zero potential inside.

Thats exactly the same effect since those guys are wearing FARADAY SUITS and in the other experiment there is only AIR inside the container.

In any case, having even an imperfect Faraday cage would be of help, since the current will prefer to flow through the metal rather than your body.

Go and prove this yourself. Please!

Naked in a metal suit of armor! In nature. Standing on the ground in metal boots!

Go and actually DO IT YOU DIMWIT, BRAINLESS CRETIN!

 

[Jaesun]

stuff...

Let me help you friend: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/hiver.9053/ignore

 

[hiver]

Let me help you friend:

Thanks Jaesun. Youre a true pal.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

Are we still ignoring the super-heating element of lightning strikes?

 

[Rostere]

stuff...

Let me help you friend: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/hiver.9053/ignore

 

[accismus]

Thank god hiver is back. I missed reading those nonsensical rants pulled completely out of his ass.

Rostere and Grotesque - give it up. You can't teach Physics over the internet.

Are we still ignoring the super-heating element of lightning strikes?

That wouldn't be shock damage any more, would it?

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

Indirectly it would. Lightning spell hits plate -> plate becomes super heated (and should probably melt/deform) -> underpadding covered in extremely hot and/or melting metal -> burn and heat damage.

 

[accismus]

Being able to move during the recovery of an action doesn't seem particularly un-RTS like.

What's un-RTS-like is not being able to do anything ELSE during that time (like drink a potion or whatever)

You mean drinking a potion etc. pauses recovery, right? Doesn't this apply to movement as well? I'm not a beta level backer so I have no idea how this actually plays out in the game...

On a side note, attack animation cancelling used to be a huge part of the original DoTA (I haven't played any DoTA 2 at all). It was basically essential to be able to farm properly. That level of micro and rule bending probably doesn't fit in an RPG though.

 

[Infinitron]

Being able to move during the recovery of an action doesn't seem particularly un-RTS like.

What's un-RTS-like is not being able to do anything ELSE during that time (like drink a potion or whatever)

You mean drinking a potion etc. pauses recovery, right? Doesn't this apply to movement as well? I'm not a beta level backer so I have no idea how this actually plays out in the game...

On a side note, attack animation cancelling used to be a huge part of the original DoTA (I haven't played any DoTA 2 at all). It was basically essential to be able to farm properly. That level of micro and rule bending probably doesn't fit in an RPG though.

I'm talking about the Infinity Engine games, not Pillars of Eternity.

You couldn't attack somebody and drink a potion immediately after you'd swung your sword, because the potion took up a round.

 

[accismus]

Well yeah, but regardless of its roots, the Infinity Engine was supposed to implement AD&D rules, including the un-RTSey distinction between actions and movement. It should hardly be a surprise that implementing D&D in an RTS engine will make it less RTSey...

 

[tuluse]

Well yeah, but regardless of its roots, the Infinity Engine was supposed to implement AD&D rules, including the un-RTSey distinction between actions and movement. It should hardly be a surprise that implementing D&D in an RTS engine will make it less RTSey...

It's not "surprising", we're comparing it to PoE.

 

[Infinitron]

Well yeah, but regardless of its roots, the Infinity Engine was supposed to implement AD&D rules, including the un-RTSey distinction between actions and movement. It should hardly be a surprise that implementing D&D in an RTS engine will make it less RTSey...

It's not "surprising", we're comparing it to PoE.

Actually, the original context of the discussion was this: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ta-release-thread.93694/page-316#post-3726441

 

[Rivmusique]

You couldn't attack somebody and drink a potion immediately after you'd swung your sword, because the potion took up a round.

You could. You couldn't cast a spell and drink a potion in the same round. Or cast a spell or drink a potion early in a round then get your attacks. You could swing a sword for 5 seconds of a round (be around 2 attacks for most of BG2? Don't know), drink a potion or cast a spell instantly on click then as the round finishes do whatever next round (perhaps this would instantly create a new six second round though, locking you out of all actions. Not sure).

 

[Ellef]

So the changes to combat from, say BG2; is there any area where PoE has actually improved the experience? All I get from the BB is a lot of frustration, mostly because I'm too slow to keep up with everyone wearing boots of speed and the lack of feedback.

 

[Zed]

vampire portrait or something I have no idea
https://twitter.com/eatenbybats/status/561703310563225600

 

[Sensuki]

If you set your attacks to 5 a round in Shadowkeeper, you get 5 attacks per round in game.

I'm going to choose to believe the guy who worked on Icewind Dale 1 and 2 over the BG fanboy.

How about believe your eyes instead.



I am playing at 40 FPS - there is 5 attacks per round in less than 4 seconds, twice in a row.

including the un-RTSey distinction between actions and movement.

You have to be fucking joking right?