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The Battle System I Wish RPGs Would Stop Using

VentilatorOfDoom

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<p>Sinister Design's Graig Stern <a href="http://sinisterdesign.net/?p=889" target="_blank">ponders how DnD is woefully inadequat</a> as a combat system for CRPGs.</p>
<blockquote>Reason 4: Mitigating factors in real-life D&D do not translate to computers

For the most part, D&D gets away with relying so heavily on die rolls because it is a role-playing game run by human beings. Players have the flexibility to improvise tactics during a play session&mdash;and, just as importantly, the ability to nag the Dungeon Master to fudge the dice in the name of a fun play experience.

If you are designing a computer game, there is no Dungeon Master to fudge the rules for you. There is only a program that is going to execute every line of code you enter with exacting literalness. You do not have the luxury of designing an arbitrary or unfair combat system. Any factors that are going to tilt combat in the players&rsquo; favor have to be coded into the game itself.

Unfortunately, most games that use an D&D-style combat system fail to give the player enough tactical options to manage the risks imposed by a highly randomized combat environment. They adopt the Thac0, the randomized damage and the saving throws, but then fail utterly to give the player more than a small handful of real tactical options. The player&rsquo;s only friends become superior stats and superior loot.

This is poor design. Giving the player better combat numbers merely amounts to weighing the dice in the player&rsquo;s favor. Weighing the dice does not turn a game of luck into a game of skill. In a game with randomized outcomes in combat, you have to give the player some robust tactical tools to manage her risk, or else she might as well be playing this.

Some game designers have done a better job of introducing outside tactical considerations than others. Compare, just for a moment, two popular computer RPGs with D&D-based combat systems: Baldur&rsquo;s Gate and Pool of Radiance.

Pool of Radiance implements a wide variety of tactical considerations which allow the player to mitigate the risks inherent to a highly random, dice-based battle system: distance, directional facing, different attacks (fighters can sweep groups of adjacent enemies), and large numbers of characters under your control with different strengths and abilities.

Compared to Pool of Radiance, combat in Baldur&rsquo;s Gate is an unpredictable mess. The tactics you can use are highly limited due to 1) the small number of characters under your control; 2) the fact that they each have only a single attack (not counting spells); 3) the awkward non-grid-based movement system; 4) the fact that enemies close distance with you almost instantaneously; and 5) the fact that you do not have direct control over your characters.</blockquote>
<p>The hideously small number of controllable characters (6 to be precise) was certainly one of the biggest problems of Baldur's Gate.</p>
 

Darth Roxor

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Players have the flexibility to improvise tactics during a play session—and, just as importantly, the ability to nag the Dungeon Master to fudge the dice in the name of a fun play experience.

You have some really shitty LARPers that can't play by the rules instead of players if that keeps happening to you in every combat encounter.
 

JarlFrank

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Pool of Radiance implements a wide variety of tactical considerations which allow the player to mitigate the risks inherent to a highly random, dice-based battle system: distance, directional facing, different attacks (fighters can sweep groups of adjacent enemies), and large numbers of characters under your control with different strengths and abilities.

Compared to Pool of Radiance, combat in Baldur’s Gate is an unpredictable mess. The tactics you can use are highly limited due to 1) the small number of characters under your control; 2) the fact that they each have only a single attack (not counting spells); 3) the awkward non-grid-based movement system; 4) the fact that enemies close distance with you almost instantaneously; and 5) the fact that you do not have direct control over your characters.

Most of these points are actually pretty reasonable. Combat with lots of tactical options is better than combat without lots of tactical options, makes sense.
 

Kaanyrvhok

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The article did kinda make sense but the example didnt follow the logic. One thing BG and PoR had in common is great encounters and you could approach them in different ways. If anything BG had more variants and was therefore more tactical.


1) the small number of characters under your control;
6 was the same amount as GB games

2) the fact that they each have only a single attack (not counting spells);
Same with GB games

3) the awkward non-grid-based movement system;
Speed is speed ground is ground. It was not awkward at all.

4) the fact that enemies close distance with you almost instantaneously;
Bullshit. They close a lot faster in Turnbased games thats why ranged weapons are so viable in BG. PoR had huge areas for its time but the weapons lacked range.

5) the fact that you do not have direct control over your characters.
Lol. More BS. You have the same control. Maybe Pool let you guard areas better...
 

Shannow

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JarlFrank said:
Pool of Radiance implements a wide variety of tactical considerations which allow the player to mitigate the risks inherent to a highly random, dice-based battle system: distance, directional facing, different attacks (fighters can sweep groups of adjacent enemies), and large numbers of characters under your control with different strengths and abilities.

Compared to Pool of Radiance, combat in Baldur’s Gate is an unpredictable mess. The tactics you can use are highly limited due to 1) the small number of characters under your control; 2) the fact that they each have only a single attack (not counting spells); 3) the awkward non-grid-based movement system; 4) the fact that enemies close distance with you almost instantaneously; and 5) the fact that you do not have direct control over your characters.

Most of these points are actually pretty reasonable. Combat with lots of tactical options is better than combat without lots of tactical options, makes sense.
Only:
For the most part, D&D gets away with relying so heavily on die rolls because it is a role-playing game run by human beings. Players have the flexibility to improvise tactics during a play session—and, just as importantly, the ability to nag the Dungeon Master to fudge the dice in the name of a fun play experience.

If you are designing a computer game, there is no Dungeon Master to fudge the rules for you. There is only a program that is going to execute every line of code you enter with exacting literalness. You do not have the luxury of designing an arbitrary or unfair combat system. Any factors that are going to tilt combat in the players’ favor have to be coded into the game itself.
That's where he's stupid. BG with it's half-assed broken adaption of D&D rules is supposed to validate his point whereas PoR with it's far more faithful representation of D&D rules is supposed to be some kind of exception. :roll:

While I don't like D&D too much a faithful use of the rules like in ToEE can serve as a perfectly fine backbone for a cRPG without the "need of a fudging DM"...
 

nihil

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Yeah, this article spreads in all kinds of directions. His points have nothing to do with AD&D, only implementation. He even points that out himself by giving a good example of AD&D in a CRPG.
 

getter77

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Kind of a strange article---wonder if he's spent any time with the likes of Incursion or other rpgs that deal with other P&P rulesets?

Even aside from that, it isn't like anybody has made a serious effort just yet on OGL, or some sort of more "officially sanctioned" Pathfinder, nor can anybody see how the whole 4th ed side of things is going to shake out (No OGL for that one for a change right?)
 

felipepepe

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getter77 said:
Kind of a strange article---wonder if he's spent any time with the likes of Incursion or other rpgs that deal with other P&P rulesets?
He didn't even spend time with BG, since he thinks there is a "small number of characters under your control". He plays PnP with what, 32 people? 6 players is enough already to make a game go in a way slower, almost boring pace...I guess he never played PnP either.

Volourn said:
He is an idiot. Case closed.
:thumbsup:
 

Alex

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Darth Roxor said:
Players have the flexibility to improvise tactics during a play session—and, just as importantly, the ability to nag the Dungeon Master to fudge the dice in the name of a fun play experience.

You have some really shitty LARPers that can't play by the rules instead of players if that keeps happening to you in every combat encounter.

I completely agree with you on the part about fudging dice, but improvisational tactics can be pretty important, specially if the game was designed with that in mind. Heck, the early editions of D&D lacked any kind of pre-made tactical moves such as grappling or bull-rushing, or whatever. You could go melee, ranged or use a spell, and using only these in the game was a sure-fire way of getting killed.
 

Flubby

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You can imagine how a clever player might prepare for an encounter with a large group of enemies in a cavern. She might set up a Gravity Well trap, then cast Rubberfoot, and once the enemy triggered the gravity well, leap up to the ceiling of the cave and Crumble a portion of the ceiling down onto them, crushing them.

That sounds fucking retarded.
 
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RTWP is a horrible implementation of combat anyway. BG or PST combat being shit has nothing to do with the D&D ruleset.

Flubby said:
You can imagine how a clever player might prepare for an encounter with a large group of enemies in a cavern. She might set up a Gravity Well trap, then cast Rubberfoot, and once the enemy triggered the gravity well, leap up to the ceiling of the cave and Crumble a portion of the ceiling down onto them, crushing them.

That sounds fucking awesome.
fixed.

Using magic in creative ways is what makes playing a magic user fun.
 

felipepepe

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Excidium said:
Flubby said:
You can imagine how a clever player might prepare for an encounter with a large group of enemies in a cavern. She might set up a Gravity Well trap, then cast Rubberfoot, and once the enemy triggered the gravity well, leap up to the ceiling of the cave and Crumble a portion of the ceiling down onto them, crushing them.

That sounds fucking awesome.
fixed.

Using magic in creative ways is what makes playing a magic user fun.

It's a bit how it works in Mage the Ascension, instead of learning spells, you learn ranks in spheres of magic (there's 9 spheres) which allow you to manipulate different things. You have freedom to do anything you want, provided your character has the knowledge of how to create that effect. It's simply the best magic system ever made...

I played Mage the Ascension a lot when I was younger, and was trully the best magic system ever made.

But the system this guy created has nothing to do with it, it's limited to a set of terraforming magics with stupid names. His example is possibly the best combo his friends could come up with, and is as deep as casting oil on the floor and setting it on fire. Even in Dragon Age you could do that.

More advanced use of the envoriment by magic users would be amazing, but it's something far too complex for a game engine allow to be freely used. Even basic pyshics and objects throwing is hard for a game to do well as Half-Life 2, and that game is from ten years ago (EDITED stupid mistake). But I hope someday we can get that kind of gameplay, although I doubt It will come from this game designer and his system. :smug:
 
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Excidium

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felipepepe said:
I played Mage the Ascension a lot when I was younger, and was trully the best magic system ever made.

But the system this guy created has nothing to do with it, it's limited to a set of terraforming magics with stupid names. His example is possibly the best combo his friends could come up with, and is as deep as casting oil on the floor and setting it on fire. Even in Dragon Age you could do that.

Yeah I noticed it after reading so I edited that part out. :)
felipepepe said:
More advanced use of the envoriment by magic users would be amazing, but it's something far too complex for a game engine allow to be freely used. Even basic pyshics and objects throwing is hard for a game to do well as Half-Life 2, and that game is from 98. But I hope someday we can get that kind of gameplay, although I doubt It will come from this game designer and his system. :smug:

Two Turds 2 has some of that, like if you cast a tornado spell it affects all objects in its range (even enemy corpses).
 

felipepepe

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Excidium said:
Two Turds 2 has some of that, like if you cast a tornado spell it affects all objects in its range (even enemy corpses).
Red Faction 1 had the best use of physics for combat IMHO. Especially in the multiplayer, where you could just dig through the mountain, make a small hole and snipe the whole battlefield. :)

But I guess that terraforming the world at any time with magic is a too powerfull tool for any engine in the next 10 years. Just imagine making a permant small volcano rise in the middle of a town, and how the shops, NPCs and quest would have to react to that. Or players flooding a dungeon/cave and killing all inside. :twisted:

Not even Todd could promise that will be a feature in Elder Scrolls DCXVI, thanks to "Awesumm™ Engine".
 

ortucis

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I fucking hated DnD the day I was introduced to it in BG but I still played all older RPGs because of the story and.. well, every other reason other than retarded DnD.
 

Volourn

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Older RPGs have shitty stories. FFS M&M, GBG, Ultimas, Wizardries... no sane person plays themf or their stories.
 

Shemar

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Excidium said:
RTWP is a horrible implementation of combat anyway.

This. To a great extend at least. DnD combat, at least up to 3.5 was designed to be run by a human DM (as the article claims) but also be TURN BASED.

I do agree that up to 3.5 the DnD combat system includes a lot of arbitrarity (2nd Ed AD&D) or needs a DM's intervention in order to have any sort of balance (3/3.5) but I still think combat with any of these systems properly implemented as designed would be far far preferable than the horrid RTwP systems (DnD or not) we have to suffer through.

4E is even better for cRPG implementation as it is structured much more like a strict wargame than the loose freeform implementations of previous editions, but I am pretty sure I will die without having ever seen a computer game that implements it (and no I do not count any action crap or RTwP abominations that will try to as proper implementations).
 

Oriebam

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felipepepe said:
Even basic pyshics and objects throwing is hard for a game to do well as Half-Life 2, and that game is from 98:
:retarded:
 

PorkaMorka

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It's easy to point out flaws in the AD&D/D&D combat system, but it is pretty difficult to come up with a better system when you're a computer game developer working on a tight deadline and most of your resources are dedicated to graphics, sound and gay elf sex, rather than sitting around developing and playtesting game systems.

It's not surprising that so many of the most mechanically sound CRPGs are based on licenses from existing P&P systems or largely copied from P&P systems... it is a great shortcut for a computer game developer to tap into the massive number of man hours spent developing and playtesting those systems.

So many otherwise solid CRPGs are crippled by poor/broken mechanics that it really makes me appreciate the D&D games, as well as the few CRPG developers who are capable of coming up with truly solid game systems on their own.

EDIT: There is another huge plus to licensed systems; the mechanics are often more comprehensible and more transparent due to the need for them to work in a table top setting. A huge part of whether you win or lose in an RPG is based on how you create and build your character/party. In a table top or licensed game those mechanics are entirely transparent, so you can make an truly informed decision when building your party. (Example: I will use maces not daggers, maces do more damage.)

In most systems created for video games the mechanics aren't transparent and even if they were transparent they might well use formulas too complex for easy comprehension. Thus the player is placed on the horns of a dilemma; either build your party based on guess work (since you don't actually have an in game way to know the effectiveness of a build before picking it ) or resort to outside spoilers to make an informed decision.

Example: before you started playing MM6 you probably wouldn't have any idea if maces or daggers did more damage and if you guessed based real world weapon effectiveness, you'd end up guessing wrong. Yet you're designing a party you're going to spend 100+ hours playing based on this type of guesswork.

Considering the impact of character building and creation on how an RPG plays, it's really great to let a player make an informed decision there, using only the information provided by the game. Licensed games tend to do this much more often.
 

Decado

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I really don't get all the RTWP hate. It wasn't that bad. It was at least original.
 

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