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Titan Quest producer rants on PC market.

Starwars

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Saw this over at RPGWatch, and thought it was an interesting read. Like Dhruin said, it's likely fueled by anger of Iron Lore shutting down, but it's still kinda interesting.

Greetings:
So, ILE shut down. This is tangentially related to that, not why they shut down, but part of why it was such a difficult freaking slog trying not to. It's a rough, rough world out there for independent studios who want to make big games, even worse if you're single-team and don't have a successful franchise to ride or a wealthy benefactor. Trying to make it on PC product is even tougher, and here's why.

Piracy. Yeah, that's right, I said it. No, I don't want to re-hash the endless "piracy spreads awareness", "I only pirate because there's no demo", "people who pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway" round-robin. Been there, done that. I do want to point to a couple of things, though.

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of shit on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.

One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

So, for a game that doesn't have a Madden-sized advertising budget, word of mouth is your biggest hope, and here we are, before the game even releases, getting bashed to hell and gone by people who can't even be bothered to actually pay for the game. What was the ultimate impact of that? Hard to measure, but it did get mentioned in several reviews. Think about that the next time you read "we didn't have any problems running the game, but there are reports on the internet that people are having crashes."

Two, the numbers on piracy are really astonishing. The research I've seen pegs the piracy rate at between 70-85% on PC in the US, 90%+ in Europe, off the charts in Asia. I didn't believe it at first. It seemed way too high. Then I saw that Bioshock was selling 5 to 1 on console vs. PC. And Call of Duty 4 was selling 10 to 1. These are hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff. Given the difference in install base, I can't believe that there's that big of a difference in who played these games, but I guess there can be in who actually payed for them.

Let's dig a little deeper there. So, if 90% of your audience is stealing your game, even if you got a little bit more, say 10% of that audience to change their ways and pony up, what's the difference in income? Just about double. That's right, double. That's easily the difference between commercial failure and success. That's definitely the difference between doing okay and founding a lasting franchise. Even if you cut that down to 1% - 1 out of every hundred people who are pirating the game - who would actually buy the game, that's still a 10% increase in revenue. Again, that's big enough to make the difference between breaking even and making a profit.

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.

Enough about piracy. Let's talk about hardware vendors. Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.

And it just keeps getting worse. CD/DVD drives with bad firmware, video cards that look like they should be a step-up from a previous generation, but actually aren't, drivers that need to be constantly updated, separate rendering paths for optimizing on different chips, oh my god. Put together consumers who want the cheapest equipment possible with the best performance, manufacturers who don't give a shit what happens to their equipment once they ship it, and assemblers who need to work their margins everywhere possible, and you get a lot of shitty hardware out there, in innumerable configurations that you can't possibly test against. But, it's always the game's fault when something doesn't work.

Even if you get over the hump on hardware compatibility - and god knows, the hardware vendors are constantly making it worse - if you can, you still need to deal with software conflicts. There are a lot of apps running on people's machines that they're not even aware of, or have become such a part of the computer they don't even think of them as being apps anymore. IM that's always on; peer-to-peer clients running in the background; not to mention the various adware and malware crap that people pick up doing things they really shouldn't. Trying to run a CPU and memory heavy app in that environment is a nightmare. But, again, it's always the game's fault if it doesn't work.

Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very savvy people out there, too, and there were some great folks in the TQ community who helped us out a lot. But, there's a lot of stupid people. Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.

And while I'm at it, I don't want to spare the reviewers either. We had one reviewer - I won't name names, you can find it if you look hard enough - who missed the fact that you can teleport from wherever you are in TQ back to any of the major towns you've visited. So, this guy was hand-carting all of his stuff back to town every time his inventory was full. Through the entire game. Now, not only was this in the manual, and in the roll-over tooltips for the UI, but it was also in the tutorial, the very first time you walk past one of these giant pads that lights up like a beacon to the heavens. Nonetheless, he missed it, and he commented in his review how tedious this was and how much he missed being able to portal back to town. When we - and lots of our fans - pointed out that this was the reviewer's fault, not the game's, they amended the review. But, they didn't change the score. Do you honestly think that not having to run back to town all the time to sell your stuff wouldn't have made the game a better experience?

We had another reviewer who got crashes on both the original and the expansion pack. We worked with him to figure out what was going on; the first time, it was an obscure peripheral that was causing the crash, a classic hardware conflict for a type of hardware that very, very few people have. The second time, it was in a pre-release build that we had told him was pre-release. After identifying the problem, getting him around it, and verifying that the bug was a known issue and had been fixed in the interim, he still ran the story with a prominent mention of this bug. With friends like that...

Alright, I'm done. Making PC products is not all fun and games. It's an uphill slog, definitely. I'm a lifelong PC gamer, and hope to continue to work on PC games in the future, but man, they sure don't make it easy.

Best,
Michael.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk ... hp?t=42663
 

Volrath

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They didn't make enough profit on TQ to self fund their own games?
 

obediah

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Ha! His first argument of why piracy hurts sales is actually the result of their anti-piracy measure.

It's like if I kill a kitten everytime I read about a drug arrest in the local paper, and then go on a crusade saying that drug use is bad because it kills kittens.
 

Claw

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obediah said:
Ha! His first argument of why piracy hurts sales is actually the result of their anti-piracy measure.

It's like if I kill a kitten everytime I read about a drug arrest in the local paper, and then go on a crusade saying that drug use is bad because it kills kittens.
Yeah, that was brilliant. :lol:

I liked how he started an anti-piracy rant by starting he didn't want to rehash pro-piracy arguments. You don't say.
 

Hazelnut

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I have to say that, completely unexpectedly after reading the thread title, I feel a lot of sympathy for many of his points. They really should have thought through the implications of that copy protection though... :roll:
 

Shannow

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"We made a mediocre Diablo clone and it failed. Must be the pirates."
Now whose fault is it that the game was on the net before it was in the stores? Who would have to take responsibility for that?

"People bitched about our DRM before the game was even released and the moderators on our forums weren't able to close the threads with the notice to buy the original game when it comes out. Also instead of simply denying the pirates the "pleasure" of playing our product we fuck with their minds and are surprised when they don't cheer us for it."
well, tough noogies.

"One or two people on our forums were really vocal about their problems with running our game although it was their own fault."
Is he really THAT sensitive?

"Our game was pirated REALLY often. That means that LOTS of people wanted to play it. We have statistics to prove it."
Yeah, Fallout was torrented over 10 million times. Statistics are always trustworthy...

"Bioshock and CoD are shooters that were made with consoles in mind with rather high hardware requirements for the pc. For some reason I don't understand they sold much better on the consoles..."
I don't know either. Probably piracy. Who'd want to play CoD on-line anyway?!

"Titan Quest did ok. But if we had made a better more engaging game with fun on-line gameplay we would have made a profit."
Aye.

"Programming for the pc is teh hard."
Yep. I can't imagine how thousands of pc games could have been made. I'm certainly not able to make one.

"People are stupid."
Aye.
 

Elwro

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Well, the initital badmouthing could perhaps have been avoided by putting a "Dear Sir/Madam, you're being sent straight to desktop now because you're a fucking thief" message just before each crash... but not necessarily.

And was TQ any good, anyway? I still play Sacred from time to time for my (very infrequent) dose of h&s.
 

MetalCraze

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I've noticed it became popular to blame the lack of success of your shitty game on piracy. yeah sure it's piracy. it's not because you've made... you know... a shitty game.
 

Shannow

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Elwro said:
Well, the initital badmouthing could perhaps have been avoided by putting a "Dear Sir/Madam, you're being sent straight to desktop now because you're a fucking thief" message just before each crash... but not necessarily.

And was TQ any good, anyway? I still play Sacred from time to time for my (very infrequent) dose of h&s.
TQ did not improve in any way upon D2. The graphix were better of course but it lacked the atmosphere. The skills never had a strong impact upon the game. Nothing new that you skilled suddenly changed the gameplay. I might just completely be over hack&slash but it felt tedious a lot sooner than the Diablos or Sacret. I'd even rate Kult and Dungeon Siege 2 higher. The only thing about TQ I liked were the storytellers. In every hub you'd have somebody relate one or two greek myths. That was quite nice.
 

Curois

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Titan Quest, like so many hack/slash pseudo-rpgs, is just fine if you see it for what it is. A nice rpglike dungeon-romp hack and slasher. Just like Sacred.
It's not Diablo 2, but then again, not even the D2 people can make something like that anymore.

If the crash to desktop was due to their copy protection scheme, then they should've made sure that the user knows the game is crashing because of the copy protection. I am sure there'd be a lot less complaint on the forums in that case.
The hardware-copmlaint is of course utter bullshit. I mean, sure, there's a lot of different GPUs out there and then there's intel vs AMD, not to mention the different bioses and motherboards and such. But one of the great advances in PC technology has to be the fact that pretty much everything is standarized, if not at a hardware level, then through the hardware abstraction layers around the OS and the OS itself.
DirectX basically takes care of all your graphix needs, so no need to worry to much about all those different GPUs then. And even if you have to program for both ATI and NVIDIA cards (basically there's nothing else aside from some integrated GPUs), then that's a whole lot easier than it used to be when the GPU market was still young and you had a dozen different manufacterers.
 

Lesifoere

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I tried to play TQ. It is thoroughly shitty and boring and mediocre, even for a Diablo clone--and I'm saying that as someone who found Sacred fun for a while.

Therefore: LOL, fucktard producer.
 

RK47

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the problem is the lack of online host server like Battle Net to have some sort of 'legitimate' playing field that was so addictive. I know, it sounds weird, but part of the charm in D2 is making trades and somehow feel like you earned it.

In TQ, well fuck people are making modules that give them uber loot etc it's hard to feel you've done anything worthwhile seeing the loot after killing the boss for the 21st time.
 

denizsi

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Just try to imagine how everyone at the studio must have felt really smart about putting in a copy protection that crashes the game.

"We got them now, boys! We got 'em by the balls!". Really ironic how it bite them in the ass at the end.

I hope they learnt their lesson about copy protection schemes. Resistance is futile.

whaa, them filthy pirates!

He's out of touch with reality. Considering the never ending need to upgrade on PC, deal with installations, updates, problems and what not, I think it's only natural that there is a huge difference between PC and console market. At the cost of being dumbed down which the masses don't care about anyway, they save on money, save on time and save on headaches and frustrations. Pretty simple.


It's ironic that after talking about piracy and how he was surprised by the 10 to 1 Console vs. PC ratio (which is an incredibly exaggerated generalization anyway), he talks about the difficulties of life with PC hardware which should open his eyes and keep his mouth shut about why Console games/ports sell supposedly 10 times more than PC.

Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there

A new record in reaching the ultimate truth and answer to many things including their own demise, alas without realizing it.

Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.

Wake up Sherlock, that's why console sells "10 times more". Haha.

Unfair revewers!

What was it he said? "There's a lot of stupid people out there". Obviously, intelligence isn't a qualifying factor for "reviewing games".

Just imagine how much it would enrage him to read this thread :) No sympathy for the weak.
 

Jaime Lannister

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"Let's dig a little deeper there. So, if 90% of your audience is stealing your game, even if you got a little bit more, say 10% of that audience to change their ways and pony up, what's the difference in income? Just about double. That's right, double. That's easily the difference between commercial failure and success. That's definitely the difference between doing okay and founding a lasting franchise. Even if you cut that down to 1% - 1 out of every hundred people who are pirating the game - who would actually buy the game, that's still a 10% increase in revenue. Again, that's big enough to make the difference between breaking even and making a profit. "

L0LIGAGZ. Galactic Civilizations 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire both made best seller lists despite being niche games with no copy protection.
 

Section8

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Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

If you don't inform the end user of why your software has just decided to exit to the desktop, then it is your fault, you are stupid, your programmers didn't know how to make games - and you code with your fucking feet.

You're also a fucktard if you assume everyone who uses a No-CD crack is a pirate. I use them on everything, so I can tuck those CDs/DVDs away safely.

Another reason to suspect you might be a fucking idiot is believing that fucking with pirates helps you in any way. Pirates have as much recourse to posting their views on the internet as paying customers - so why piss them off? It's not going to stop them pirating your game, they've done that already. You're just pissing off a potential customer, and giving them motive to trash you and your game via word-of-mouth. If you're a "struggling indie" that relies on word-of-mouth, then you should be ignoring the "fact" that 90% of users pirated your software, and thinking "Wow, there's 900% more potential viral marketers!"

Oh snap, Bioshock and COD4 sold more on consoles!

I know quite a few experienced PC gamers, and very few of them bought Bioshock or COD4, simply because "hardcore games, shooters, classic PC audience stuff" basically means "been there, done that". I know more casual console gamers who bought either or both, because they're not as cynical and jaded.

Of course, all of that idiocy pales in comparison to:

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it. But if even a tiny fraction of the people who pirated the game had actually spent some god-damn money for their 40+ hours of entertainment, things could have been very different today. You can bitch all you want about how piracy is your god-given right, and none of it matters anyway because you can't change how people behave... whatever. Some really good people made a seriously good game, and they might still be in business if piracy weren't so rampant on the PC. That's a fact.

Fail. You made a derivative piece of shit that offers PC gamers nothing more than Diablo 2 offered five years earlier and quite simply, if you think that constitutes a "seriously good game" then you're a cunt who deserved to see your "struggling indie" go under. Good people or otherwise.

Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.

And all of that has absolutely nothing to do with your own spineless reliance on hardware? A Commodore 64 is a "gaming-capable" PC, you fuck. Admittedly the staggering number of hardware permutations makes PC development a lot more difficult than the fixed hardware of a console - but if you're making a game that is basically Diablo II with 5 years worth of system requirements packed on top, don't come fucking crying to us about how hard life is because the hardware manufacturers you're helping to legitimise use bigger numbers to designate a newer, yet inferior product.

Customers are stupid. Reviewers are stupid.

Yep. But they're not beyond education. And maybe, just maybe, they're just wanting to vent about your shitty game and looking for excuses. Just like venting about pirates, hardware, customers and reviewers, even though it's clear to everyone why the eight hundredth shitty Diablo clone failed.

There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than failed game developers.

Fixed.
 

Brother None

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I like Titan Quest. A lot. Basically a dumbed down Diablo, but I like it.

This guy's riling off against the wrong people, though. I don't like pirates, at all, no matter how many excuses they can pile on top of each other, but blaming them for sales is like blaming the sea for making your ship sink when you have a huge breach in your hull. It just doesn't work that way.

I find it very odd how he's not even considering blaming publishers for refusing to back Iron Lore for a new project after they've released a profitable Titan Quest. Same thing as happened to Troika, innit? Publishers aren't interested in PC games that make a bit. They want BILLIONS. But apparently that doesn't occur to this guy. Really odd.
 

Solaris

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Maybe if the TQ devs/publishers (and a ton of others) didn't treat their customers like fucking shit (over zealous copy protection) and do what Stardock/IronClad do they wouldn't have that problem. Embedded DRM in game code and on systems hardly endears people to game companies...

Yeah, fuck the pirates!....but fuck the customers too, huh Michael?

In short - cry me a fucking river
 

WalterKinde

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I was neutral for Titan Quest, there was no "must have now" feeling for me on it .
I had my Diablo, Diablo 2 with expansions and god help me i actually bought both versions of Dungeon Siege from Gas Powered Games.
So i had had enough for a while of these kind of games for a while, i admit to a bit of interest but the whole copy protection thing was a deciding factor in not purchasing and i didn't even contemplate getting the game via p2p because it just didn't seem that good after looking at it without all the hype.
Hell even when it hit bargin bin prices i still didn't pick it up nor have any interest in doing so now.
 

DoppelG

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I always found it weird how punishing the customer would somehow scare away the pirates, doesn't make sense.
PC games have become increasingly more shitty and seem to target nothing more then a UBER-performance computer market, forget about innovating gameplay, i mean, DUH, ofcourse people don't buy that shit. People that pirate it won't buy it anyways you know.
 

spacemoose

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why oh why is no one making the games I like anymore.

oh here let me go ahead and torrent this next one, maybe it will be like the good old times

CONSOLITIS BWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA




on another note, it will be interesting to see the PC to console sale ratio of the witcher
 

DemonKing

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I won't shed a tear over IL as they never produced anything of interest to me (deleted the TQ demo after about 15minutes and I never liked the DoW universe) but I can appreciate some of the points he made...although if TQ hadn't been such a derivitive dull D2 clone then maybe sales might have been a bit better...The Witcher has sold 600 000+ copies so far solely on PC which the developer seems pretty happy about because it wasn't just a clone of something else.

Also I feel PC games would sell better if they're properly integrated into an online system that not only allows authentification of purchase but also value adds to the product (ie Battlenet)...if pirates can see a value in paying for a product (eg online multiplayer functionality) rather than simply stealing it then they're more likely to do so.

There's definitely room in the PC market to survive if you produce seriously good titles...a lot of my favourite games have been PC exclusives because you simply can't achieve on a console what you can on something as versatile as a PC (Company of Heroes, Rome: Total War, Infinity engine games etc).
 

Raapys

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Messages
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Wow, *him too*?

Didn't the developers of Crysis and those of Gears of War just say the exact same thing? Is this some sort of bandwagon? Let's make crappy games with crazy system requirements and blame piracy for failing to reach the unrealistically high target set?
 

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