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What went wrong with Shadowrun? 1up investigates

Elwro

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Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Now that we all know the <A HREF="http://shadowrun.com/">PC Shadowrun game</A> was a disaster and FASA Interactive was <A HREF="http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2007/09/13/the-price-of-shadowrun-fasa-studios-closes">forcibly dismantled</A> by Microsoft, 1up's editor Michael Zenke thinks it's time for a little <A HREF="http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3163253">retrospective and failure analysis</A>.

The <A HREF="http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3163253">text</A> starts with reminding us of the three console Shadowrun games of the 90s (yes, three), but the heart of the text is the section where the author considers what could have been done if the developers had more creativity and the title belonged to a different genre. Here's what he says about RPGs:
<blockquote>
RPG -- The obvious choice for a Shadowrun game, but still one with many possible variations. What style of RPG would work best with the combination of magic and technology? Perhaps it would be an Oblivion/Fallout 3-style game, with forests of skyscrapers replacing the brickwork of Anvil, and magic-mad beasts of the forests replacing the radiation-mutated creatures of the wastes. A JRPG-style title would be very unique, a fusion of two very different mindsets to create a new gameplay style; picture the combat system of Final Fantasy XIII meets urban street brawls, with a smattering of luscious cut-scenes set in corporate boardrooms and atop blood-soaked Mexican ziggurats. What would seem like the perfect fit, though, is the party-friendly gameplay of BioWare games, in which customizable protagonist works through the story-heavy elements of a familiar-but-alien world with a rotating band of uniquely skilled cohorts. Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic have more in common with Shadowrun than not.
</blockquote>
How do <em>you</em> envision a proper PC Shadowrun RPG? Tell us on the forums and let's all share your sadness that no company will ever do it.
Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.1up.com/">1up</A>
 

WalterKinde

Scholar
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
524
I would have preferred an expansion on the Genesis version of the game. Improved Graphics, AI , storyline as well as linear and random runs, with you needing to manage an actual shadowrun team as opposed to being the jack of all trades, example some runs require a mage, some a cyber decker others the melee fighters.
This path could have worked with the game being a MMO as well as a single player PC RPG with say the persistant worlds multiplayer that the Original NWN has.
A shame about FASA the Shadowrun setting had such great potential, some of it was realized on the genesis console, the snes version wasn't bad either but it was a bit linear if entertaining.
 

Nedrah

Erudite
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Mar 14, 2005
Messages
1,693
Location
Germany
Sad thing is, I doubt that those suits who were responsible for taking the license into that direction are the ones who have to look for a new job, now.
 

doctor_kaz

Scholar
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
517
Location
Ohio, USA
I think that a Deus Ex style FPS/RPG would work best. When I played Deus Ex it reminded me so much of Shadowrun.

Why does there have to be some kind of "analysis" on why this game bombed? It was a pile of retardation from the day it was announced. Is there anyone who thought that people were going to buy this shitty game? It's one of the stupidest uses of intellectual property since the concept was invented.
 

MonkeyHead

Educated
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Oct 18, 2006
Messages
40
Location
NYC
As noted it would be pretty hard to screw up a game based on such an awesome license, congratulations to FASA Interactive for dreaming the impossible dream.

While a Deus Ex-y mission-based FPS could be awesome, I would love to see a Jagged Alliance / Fallout mix. Walking around Seattle, picking up runs from shady Johnsons and putting together a team for runs while working a non-linear story-line ala Fallout would cause me to build a small shrine to the developers.

I love having a home base in strategy games and having to set up defenses in an apartment building to fend off corporate hit teams after a run goes bad would be fan-fucking-tastic.

Given the plethora of groups (and pinatas) in the Shadowrun world once could easily incorporate a faction system, the Seattle Shadowrun setting would be especially rich given its diverse metahuman population and close proximity to several hostile nation states.
 

made

Arcane
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
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Location
Germany
<A HREF="http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2007/06/17/free-shadowrun-with-halo-2-purchase-already">The price is high for a multiplayer-only title, and of course it requires Vista to run.</A>

Gee, and it didn't sell?
 

doctor_kaz

Scholar
Joined
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Messages
517
Location
Ohio, USA
I hope that people will remember this game the next time that they point out that niche titles for the PC like Vampire -- The Masquerade: Bloodlines don't sell. This game ironically bombed because it was believed that a Shadowrun RPG would be a failure, so they decided to make a multiplayer shooter out of it because there's no way anyone will buy a legitimate Shadowrun game but by golly they'll buy a multiplayer shooter.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
They got a great license with a huge fanbase and a very well known name. Instead of doing the obviously smart thing they went and fucked it up with a decidedly mediocre shooter. I'm glad it bombed, just out of principle.
 

Solaris

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Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
173
Location
UK
Nedrah said:
Sad thing is, I doubt that those suits who were responsible for taking the license into that direction are the ones who have to look for a new job, now.

So true unfortunately..
 

Solohk

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Joined
Aug 15, 2006
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Madam Lil's
Don't forget that they crippled the PC players controls to put them on an even footing with the Xbox'ers. So not only do you alienate the Shadowrun fans by making a Shadowrun Multiplayer FPS, but you alienate the FPS fans by making it a shitty FPS.

Gee, I wonder why it bombed.
 

Dgaider

Liturgist
Developer
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
316
Elwro said:
How do <em>you</em> envision a proper PC Shadowrun RPG? Tell us on the forums and let's all share your sadness that no company will ever do it.

I actually think the note that Shadowrun would have made for a good match-up with Bioware to not be entirely out of place. Shadowrun is a game that lends itself well to fast and furious action, throw in some team members -- heck, the potential right there for team members with their own agendas and potential double-crosses blows my mind -- and some open-world style shadowrunning missions a la the Genesis version and you've got a winner right there.

Really, the Genesis version of the game just needs an update -- my only problem with it back then was that its focus on a single character meant you became a jack-of-all-trades kind of samurai/decker/shaman instead of making you choose between them and potentially missing out on the rest of the content.

I even think (and forgive me for blaspheming) that Shadowrun would lend itself to the MMO milieu. I mean, the multitude of missions practically writes itself, and for once the whole MMO thing where you seek out quests en masse to complete would actually fit right in the gameworld. I mean... that's what shadowrunners do. You've got a city sprawl with legal zones -- want PvP? Go down to the Barrens, and happily beat each other to a pulp. But pull out your gun in a triple-A zone in Bellevue and suffer the consequences. Shoot -- need a challenge for more experienced players? How about sending them into the Renraku arcology during the shutdown? Or send them on a run into Tir Tairngire and have them go up against some elven ghost teams. Give the player an instanced shadowrunning "base", and hey -- you can put a decking "layer" on top of the real world. Let the deckers hang out in an online-world within an online-world, one which can affect the real world. I mean, how cool would it be to co-ordinate your run with a decker working in his alternate world to turn off security in the lab you're about to hit? The shadowrunning team is, more or less, the ultimate pick-up group.

But anyway.

The sad part is that no matter how decent a shooter this latest Shadowrun might have been or how much you think the Shadowrun license belonged on that game, Shadowrun as an IP is very likely entrenched in the mind of the industry as something that does not sell. Heck, it did not even sell well enough to support the pen-and-paper version of the RPG. The only purpose in using an IP is to take advantage of its built-in fanbase -- and, yes, I completely agree that this particular game not only disregarded the IP's fanbase but practically insulted them (oy), but I suspect the industry at large doesn't care about that. A Shadowrun game was made and the fans did not come out. Therefore why make another game using that IP and risk the same? The industry is nothing if not risk-averse above all else, considering how much games cost to make right now.

So beware when you dance upon the grave of this latest Shadowrun game -- the lesson the industry learned from it might not be the one you think it should have. Had it sold better we might indeed have had to endure a sequel or two, but the value added to the IP might also have seen it possibly earn some time in other genres as well. Too bad -- despite having had to "reboot" the game world (cue my geek outrage at that thought once again) the guys who made the game seemed really sincere in their love of the world and I can't help but think they did what they could to retain the spirit of it within the confines of whatever directives they were given.

Ah, well. This Shadowrun fan is disappointed all around.
 

slipgate_angel

Scholar
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Aug 15, 2007
Messages
288
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Texas
Although I haven't played the newer Shadowrun, and even though I kind of dissaproved of what type of game they did ((Or what Microsoft wanted them to make)) I loved Mech assault, and Crinsom skies. Farewell FASA studios, and I wish the ex employeys the best of luck.

Although I would have liked to see an RPG or PRG/FPS hybrid, I was pretty intrested in the ORIGINAL LOOK for the online shooter. Then again, I bet Microsoft hates that half cartoone look, and we they belive in making a more serious game...look where that got them. -.-
 

errorcode

Liturgist
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Jul 15, 2004
Messages
622
Location
Seattle
The sad part is that most folks working on Shadowrun just didn't give a shit. They wanted to make a mutliplayer deathmatch game and to get it greenlit they shoe-horned it into an existing IP to get MS to agree to it (MS is pretty gunshy about creating new IPs).

The folks i talked to over at the Fasa studio while the game was in production ranged from folks in denial ("People will love our game in spite of what we're doing to shadowrun") to the hostile ("The only people who won't our game are nose-picking, basement dwellers who will bitch and whine on the internet about it. Fuck'em.").

It's sad because i'm sure they believed they were making a great game, but they just had no idea how attached the internet community is to the idea of a Shadowrun RPG and, nowadays, you spurn the internet community at your own risk.


As for what my idea of what could have been a cool shadowrun game. While totally different concepts i'd want to include a matrix miniworld sub-game and an astral sight aspect to both games, since that layered reality is such a key draw to the Shadowrun setting.

Shadowrun: Lockdown - The player is one of the roughly hundred thousand folks trapped in the Renraku Arcology when it's central AI decides to lockdown and start playing god. I'd design it as an RPG/survival horror game, with the player creating their character and playing an intro mission befitting their class that explains why they're in the Arcology, then jumping ahead to them waking up in one of the hundreds of labs that the AI has set up to do experiments on the trapped populace. From there the player has to get out alive while avoiding the AI's drone armies, modified human experiments and hacker cultist followers. Street sams testing their battle prowess and wits against a biomechanic deathtrap, mages and phys ads testing magic versus technology, deckers and riggers trying to beat the AI at it's own game...something for everyone


Shadowrun: Black Ops - A I'd design it along the vein of classic Bioware stuff, with your main central character and a discoverable cast of characters. The story would start with a run that went perfect (the intro/tutorial mission) but has caused the PC's contacts to hang him out to dry. Then the player has to untangle the double-crosses, boardroom machinations, and personal vendettas that have them caught in the middle, while meeting and working with a collection of runners who are the PC's best bet of getting through it all alive. I'd really want to showcase the world of shadowrun with a game like this, going to well covered SR locations like Seattle and Denver as well as less exposed places like Atlanta (the capital of the Confederated American States) and the Caribbean League.

EDIT: Ack, i started writing and then wandered off before posting. I completely missed Gaider's comment, which i completely agree with when he talks about Shadowrun being a perfect fit for MMOs. Most of the mindsets for setting up MMO systems are already game world mechanics in Shadowrun. Sadly, with MS's wrecking of the IP and abysmal track record with MMO development I figure we'll never see it

(unless Gaider swings the might of Bioware at it *nudge* *nudge*)[/i]
 

Solohk

Scholar
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Messages
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Madam Lil's
Dgaider said:
Give the player an instanced shadowrunning "base", and hey -- you can put a decking "layer" on top of the real world. Let the deckers hang out in an online-world within an online-world, one which can affect the real world. I mean, how cool would it be to co-ordinate your run with a decker working in his alternate world to turn off security in the lab you're about to hit? The shadowrunning team is, more or less, the ultimate pick-up group.
Forgive me for going off topic, but Mr. Gaider touched on something I would love to see in an MMO - dungeons/quests/missions that require multiple groups to pull off. It would finally give the smaller guilds a place at the top. Suddenly Superguild X can decide to contact Small Hacking Guild Y to drop a security system while X assaults the base. And why not? If Y has a good reputation as hackers, and X doesn't have players interested in hacking (or just don't want to bother with it) I could see it working out beautifully.
 

Dgaider

Liturgist
Developer
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Messages
316
errorcode said:
(unless Gaider swings the might of Bioware at it *nudge* *nudge*)
The might of Bioware is not mine to swing -- trust me, or it would already have been done. I have a deep, dark and abiding love for Shadowrun. I swear, if some company called me up and said "we have a Shadowrun RPG we'd love to hire you to work on!" it would be sorely, sorely tempting.

But really, what are the odds? There's a better chance of the Fallout license being resurrected again.

Oh, wait...

Um... I meant that there's a better chance of the X-Com license being resurrected again.

...

...

Damn.
 

Elwro

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Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Dgaider said:
The sad part is that no matter how decent a shooter this latest Shadowrun might have been or how much you think the Shadowrun license belonged on that game, Shadowrun as an IP is very likely entrenched in the mind of the industry as something that does not sell.(...)
So beware when you dance upon the grave of this latest Shadowrun game -- the lesson the industry learned from it might not be the one you think it should have.
Actually, that's exactly what I meant by "no company will ever do it" at the end of my newspost, sorry if my English is unclear.

Heck, it did not even sell well enough to support the pen-and-paper version of the RPG.
I'm not sure if that's the case - I can't quote any repliable source, but I think that FASA thought the PnP RPG business was going downhill as a whole, so it would be more profitable to concentrate on something else. This is speculation, of course. I decided to stay with Shadowrun 2.0 myself...

I actually think the note that Shadowrun would have made for a good match-up with Bioware to not be entirely out of place. Shadowrun is a game that lends itself well to fast and furious action, throw in some team members -- heck, the potential right there for team members with their own agendas and potential double-crosses blows my mind -- and some open-world style shadowrunning missions a la the Genesis version and you've got a winner right there.
I agree. The setting offers some good possibilities for companions - a dwarven Bear Shaman, an orkish Marlowe-style private eye... But what I'd really like would be a game with the Astral Plane properly implemented. This would give so many options for quests and during combat...
 

crakkie

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Messages
1,608
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Louisiana
Shadowrun definitely doesn't lend itself well to ultra-realism. Visually I always imagined it with a cell shaded-ish/comic-book styling with realistic body proportions. It's derived from the real world, but there are some goofy and over-the-top characterizations.

I don't think a Bio-style game would have suited it. Getting contacts, putting together a team, building a rep--all these things are pretty dull and predictable if there's a small group of hireables/contactables and a linear plot. I'd like a very open, almost M&B-like world. The thing is, SR has such a society of other runners plying their trade in the same areas as you, that you would need to simulate concurrent actions of other runners to get the "community" of runners in Seattle or Denver right.

I'm suggesting a open gameworld in a single city with randomized (or prolifically placed) quests and NPCs/Contacts. Other NPC runners are taking jobs, working with you, competing with you, hiring on with megacorps; there would be some kind of competition system similar to Depth of Peril. Of course I'd like turn-based combat, but the SR system just doesn't translate well to a CRPG, especially vehicle combat. RTwP would be better in this case.

That said, I abandoned hope long ago. The SR shooter finally ended my optimism. On the plus side it encouraged me to actually start working on my own SR-derived RPG, which I will never finish.
 

errorcode

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
622
Location
Seattle
Dgaider said:
errorcode said:
(unless Gaider swings the might of Bioware at it *nudge* *nudge*)
The might of Bioware is not mine to swing -- trust me, or it would already have been done. I have a deep, dark and abiding love for Shadowrun. I swear, if some company called me up and said "we have a Shadowrun RPG we'd love to hire you to work on!" it would be sorely, sorely tempting.

But really, what are the odds? There's a better chance of the Fallout license being resurrected again.

Oh, wait...

Um... I meant that there's a better chance of the X-Com license being resurrected again.

...

...

Damn.

hell, there's a Ghostbusters game coming now. That makes me believe anything is possible :)
 

cazsim83

Novice
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
36
Location
PVAZ
Dgaider said:
some great stuff.

I'll name my first 3 children Dgaider if you'll make this game.

edit - short post, might as well add some stuff...

Shadowrun was one of my favorite console games when I was a kid. I had the SNES version for a couple years until a new friend I met had the Genesis version. There was a lot of console-gamer-kid cussing that ensued, but the experience was great. Both games had a completely different feel IMHO - but they both pulled it off so well.

I completely agree that SR has one of the easiest atmospheres to translate into an MMO(especially RPG - w/ HIGH leveling caps at that!) - much better than Fallout (heil Interplay!) And the thought of *gasp* people HAVING to work together in an MMORPG and not just creating a super-munchkin is almost a turnon. Yeah, it's that good.

From the minute I heard they were making a new Shadowrun game, I was so ridiculously excited, until I found out what KIND of SR game they were making. Let me say I am NOT a big fan of FPS. There is the occasional one that I really enjoy, which is usually due to an interesting storyline (Bioshock most recently), but I find them rather blase for the most part. Halo 3 (don't stone me now) wasn't really a big improvement over 2....or 1 for that matter. The level editor adds some pretty cool dynamics/options, but the story wasn't amazing to me, and they left it open-ended............again.

Roll your eyes if you want, but most of hyped games are pretty easily pinned down from the moment I lay eyes on 'em. Bioshock was going to be pretty good. SR was not. F3 is going to do well, but the fans (obviously) are going to be heartbroken and sick.

Now my only hope is that Bethesda will rape Shadowrun and make an amalgamation of Oblivion and SR "with the best parts of both" of course. At least it'll be tolerable for 20 hours so. That's about 10x longer than I could play FASA's version.
 

flabbyjack

Arcane
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Jul 15, 2004
Messages
2,592
Location
the area around my keyboard
MonkeyHead said:
As noted it would be pretty hard to screw up a game based on such an awesome license, congratulations to FASA Interactive for dreaming the impossible dream.

I love having a home base in strategy games and having to set up defenses in an apartment building to fend off corporate hit teams after a run goes bad would be fan-fucking-tastic.
Ouch, I hope we still get some MechWarrior releases.

Here is a pitch for one of my favorite designs, although I don't have the design docs in front of me :
Shadowrun - Seattle
Setting : Post-collapse Seattle. Megacorporations hold sway over the urban sprawl.
Premise : The player(After standard Shadowrun character creation) is plopped down into a huge living city separated into zones, you have anonymous civilians walking around, as well as static(shop keepers, Johnsons) and dynamic(Shadowrunners) NPCs. Dynamic NPCs conduct raids on businesses, gang activity, and the like so it feels like the game is competative, may lead a gang of thugs, and later may be leader of a Shadowrunner team.
Gameplay : There is a large amount of seemingly procedural content, but really these are just hundreds of random encounters(Similar to the Genesis version of Shadowrun) that occur based on your surroundings. Compare with King of Dragon Pass. A dialogue box pops up with options depending on your character's stats. So you are walking down a dark alley, and by chance you are mugged(Resulting in a hostile NPC spawning at your location), or a man offers you some black market grenades, or that shopkeeper has a quest for you. Such an easy way to add content, or start side-quests. The matrix may be simplified to streamline production, but definitely plays an important role in getting info, messing with security systems, obtaining blackmail material.
This is all top-down isometric, similar to Fallout Tactics or Jagged Alliance, but in a large urban cityscape. Focus is on character interaction and a splintering main quest, divided into three stages : Player vs City, Player vs Quaratine Zone, Player vs Corps.
Inspiration : Shadowrun(Genesis), Shadowrun P&P, various Mafia games for PC(Gangsters 1+2, and some really tight action/strategy mafia game I have but I can't find), Republic.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Let's see Shadowrun PC has Elves, Trolls, and Dwarves. Concept art and the names of some equipment were taken from the setting. Is this the best effort these guys could do? This is a fucking insult to gamers intelligence and a marketing fraud, that's what it is.
 

Otingocni

Novice
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
92
The only purpose in using an IP is to take advantage of its built-in fanbase -- and, yes, I completely agree that this particular game not only disregarded the IPs fanbase but practically insulted them (oy), but I suspect the industry at large doesnt care about that.
I remember hearing about something similar going on right now. A company called Vethesda or something dealing with a fanbase (No Mentants Allowed I think) in exactly the same manner.
 

MonkeyHead

Educated
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
40
Location
NYC
Shadowrun: Lockdown - The player is one of the roughly hundred thousand folks trapped in the Renraku Arcology when it's central AI decides to lockdown and start playing god. I'd design it as an RPG/survival horror game, with the player creating their character and playing an intro mission befitting their class that explains why they're in the Arcology, then jumping ahead to them waking up in one of the hundreds of labs that the AI has set up to do experiments on the trapped populace.

To follow up on your idea with a slight tangent, how would you handle character advancement. I'm assuming by your description of the scenario and the survival horror moniker that game time would elapse in more or less real time and the total game world time that would elapse over the course of the game would be at most a few days. In such a situation how would you handle RPG style character advancement?
From what I have seen RPG lite systems set in a restricted environment such as the System/Bioshock series have relied on very accelerated character development through cybermodules/plasmids, both being a "magical" speed character advancement speed. In an even slightly more realistic setting like Shadowrun this sort of advancement would be difficult to pull off unless we resort to "super cybernetic upgrades the AI was secretly developing", but that still leaves non-cyber users out of the loop.

To the forum at large, is it possible to incorporate RPG character advancement in an enclosed environment, especially one in which real time and game world time are roughly equal?
 

cazsim83

Novice
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
36
Location
PVAZ
Otingocni said:
. A company called Vethesda or something dealing with a fanbase (No Mentants Allowed I think) in exactly the same manner.

Are you implying, sir, that this fanbase may be sub-intelligent? Surely you mean they are so intelligent they have no NEED for mentats, rather than implying they are inferior because they do not USE mentats?
 

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