Legitimate use of minigames in cRPGs

DraQ · Nov 7, 2007

It's finally the day - you may think - this DraQ guy might have seemed resonable at first, but he is from TESF, after all, and we know, oh too well, that they all want RPGs become oblibians. Moreso, he's fucking furry! DIE HERETIC!

Unfortunately it's not so simple. The minigames in oblibians sucked a big time.
First, the success rate depended on player's skill - you could easily twitch any lock open with a single lockpick at any skill level, which rendered character skill irrelevant.
Second, the persuasion minigame had absolutely no connection with the act of persuasion which effectively broke the immersion (immersion as opposed to immershun is desirable in RPGs).
Third, the game stopped during the minigames eliminating any reason for even having such thing as lockpicking minigame.

Let me present you with two examples of games with well done minigames:

Wizardry 8 - an RPG/dungeon crawl
System Shock 2 - RPG tinted FPS/survival horror

In Wizardry 8 there were two kinds of minigames - lockpicking and disarming traps.

Lockpicking involved clicking on tumblers that could result in either locking them in proper position or not, depending on character's skill.
Disarming traps required identifying trap by clicking on the "examine trap" button, where degree of success varied according to character's skill, and disarming the individual components by clicking on them, with success being again determined by character's skill.

System shock featured several variants of a single minigame used for various technical tasks. Basically player had to sucessfully light three nodes in a row by clicking on them. Whether an individual node went light or dark depended on character's skill and various dificulty modifiers. There were also special dangerous nodes where failure caused some very undesirable effect, like destruction of the item.

What we immediately notice is that none of the minigames featured in both games relied on player skill. They did require attention, however and were performed in real time which was especially important in SS2 where you could often be attacked when you focused on performing some technical task.

Therefore I propose that the minigames may be present in RPGs if success depends solely on character's skill and they play the role of an attention sink forcing player to divert attention from the surroundings of their character/party.

Discuss!

Cassidy · Nov 7, 2007

I don't think it's a bad idea to implement puzzles and item combinations that compose the Adventure genre into a CRPG, if it's well done(not too easy, neither too hard). But I'm totally against twitch mini-games in a CRPG.

Imbecile · Nov 7, 2007

Pretty clearly minigames cant only depend on character skill, otherwise they are hardly games, and certainly of limited entertainment. Ideally you want them to present a mix of player and character skill.

The mingame you cite for Wizadry sounds more like a basic skillcheck, and doesnt really fall into the mingame category.

I wasnt actually too offended by the Oblivian lockpicking minigame, but yes, the persuasion mini-game sucked donkey balls.

Alex · Nov 7, 2007

I think there still is much room for improvement for minigames in rpgs (and other games too). Since I haven't (yet) played wizardry 8, I will focus on your System Shock example.

DraQ said:
Therefore I propose that the minigames may be present in RPGs if success depends solely on character's skill(snip)

I know that is not what you meant, but minigames shouldn't depend solely on character's skills or they would stop being games. Instead, they should depend on non twitchy skills, or at least not only on them. System Shock is a good example, as it depends on character skill in order to open a node or not, but it takes some planning in order to maximize your chances.

But still, I think there is room for improvement here. The hacking minigame got easy too fast. Sure, there were times where it wasn't easy to hack something, but there was not much you could do to help because the game lacked complexity. This is not much of a problem if the minigame is supposed to be only a small part of the overall game.

Also, the minigame must be so that a player that got good at it isn't simply able to use his ability instead of his character's. This is, I believe, one of the problems with Oblivion's lockpicking game. System Shock avoided this, but used the rather artificial restriction that you had to have some level in order to even attempt to hack something.

We do, however, have a good example of balance between character and player skill. The combat in most rpgs has to deal with this and in a rpg with good combat, a player with good skill can get farther with a weak character and waste less resources, but he will still need to up its character's abilities in order to win the game.

Finally, I think that minigames in rpgs should only be as small as the role of the action in the game. For example, in System Shock, hacking was a pretty important action, specially for some character builds. The action supplied enough reward, as many hackable items in the game gave you more resources. However, the activity itself could have been made more fun. It wasn't a bad minigame by any means, but given the importance of the action it represented, I think it should have been more than only a minigame.

MetalCraze · Nov 7, 2007

Pazaak in KotOR was a pretty good minigame. It wasn't critical for the story-line and thus not annoying.

well... if all minigames will be like this.... Then why not?

thesheeep · Nov 7, 2007

Addition to skyway:

Don't forget that there were also other mini-games in System Shock 2.

There was some kind of GameBoy, with many little games (frogger clones, etc.).
In Prey (okay, not an RPG, but still...), there also were little arcade automats.
And those little card games in Final Fantasy or Might & Magic. Sometimes, you totally ignore the main or sidequests in order to get better cards

Of course, such games are for fun only, but don't forget their impact on the fun and variety of a game. If you had enough of running around, searching, doing quests, etc. You can just put out those small games-in-the-game and relax a little....

SilasMalkav · Nov 7, 2007

I think by minigames, DraQ means non-combat skill interfaces. I'm personally against any kind of gambling in rpgs, as it usually means I'll be forced to play them for hours just to get in game money.

I've thought about this for a while, and one of my first posts here at the codex was on the same lines, but approached from a very wrong angle. First of all, I quite like some non-combat skill interfaces, but most of the time I either get bored with them in a game, find them too easy, or too hard. If I can't fail them, in the case of a completly character dependant result, then I want to just be able to skip them if I'm bored of them.

I think that these kind of minigames should be used to show that a character is focusing more on a skill, and they should get a little boost in that skill if you are completing the game. For example the character would be able to pick a lock quicker if I play the minigame, or an attempt would get the maximum possible result (for example the equivilant of taking 20 in d20). That way I could chose to skip past it, but there's still incentive for me to play it, without my skill completly overcoming my character's weakness.

Hamster · Nov 7, 2007

Pazaak in KotOR was a pretty good minigame. It wasn't critical for the story-line and thus not annoying.

Minigame in The Witcher (poker with dices or smt )was pretty awesome and logicaly implemented in the game world too. Along with pazaak it's a good example of how to do minigames.

TheLostOne · Nov 7, 2007

Console game, but I really liked the card mini-game from the first Xenosaga. I think I spent as many hours playing that as the actual game.

SilasMalkav · Nov 7, 2007

The Poker minigame in The Witcher is heavily retarded. You're forced to play it for the poker quests and for money (I'm sure that armor wouldn't have cost 5k if gambling wasn't in the game) and it's stupidly easy. For example, the secret to winning is to simply reroll everything that isn't a pair. Even if the computer gets lucky, he will bodge it up. Sometimes if he gets a pair or higher, he will reroll one of the matching dice!!

In the end I just feel like I've wasted my time.

Nael · Nov 7, 2007

The best minigame I've ever played was Arcomage from MM7.

DraQ · Nov 7, 2007

Imbecile said:
Pretty clearly minigames cant only depend on character skill, otherwise they are hardly games, and certainly of limited entertainment. Ideally you want them to present a mix of player and character skill.

The mingame you cite for Wizadry sounds more like a basic skillcheck, and doesnt really fall into the mingame category.

I disagree. Both minigames in Wizardry required continuous input from the player. Basic skill checks is what you could see in action in Fallout or Morrowind when you tried to pick a lock.

I wasnt actually too offended by the Oblivian lockpicking minigame, but yes, the persuasion mini-game sucked donkey balls.

You mean that minigame allowing completely unskilled character to open the hardest lock in game on the first try thanks to m4d ski11z exhibited by the player is all fine and dandy?
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SilasMalkav said:
I think by minigames, DraQ means non-combat skill interfaces

Yes. I also meant true RPGs and their hybrids, so minigames in games like Anachronox (which really should have a sequel) don't count here.
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Alex said:
System Shock is a good example, as it depends on character skill in order to open a node or not, but it takes some planning in order to maximize your chances.

Still, even if you maximized your chances you wouldn't do much good if you failed 90% of the time per node

But still, I think there is room for improvement here. The hacking minigame got easy too fast.

It wouldn't without your investment in hacking skill and cyber affinity. There is little you can do when you're confronted with 90% failure rate and eight ICE nodes.

System Shock avoided this, but used the rather artificial restriction that you had to have some level in order to even attempt to hack something.

I have to disagree. You would still be limited by the amount of ICE nodes and failure rate.

We do, however, have a good example of balance between character and player skill. The combat in most rpgs has to deal with this and in a rpg with good combat, a player with good skill can get farther with a weak character and waste less resources, but he will still need to up its character's abilities in order to win the game.

I think we have another reason for implementing minigames - to make player involved in actions other than combat and dialogue.

Finally, I think that minigames in rpgs should only be as small as the role of the action in the game. For example, in System Shock, hacking was a pretty important action, specially for some character builds. The action supplied enough reward, as many hackable items in the game gave you more resources. However, the activity itself could have been made more fun. It wasn't a bad minigame by any means, but given the importance of the action it represented, I think it should have been more than only a minigame.

Agreed.
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To summarize, I think that there are two good uses of skill interface minigames - attention sink and making player feel involved in activities other than combat and dialogue.

Direwolf · Nov 8, 2007

SilasMalkav said:
The Poker minigame in The Witcher is heavily retarded. You're forced to play it for the poker quests and for money (I'm sure that armor wouldn't have cost 5k if gambling wasn't in the game) and it's stupidly easy. For example, the secret to winning is to simply reroll everything that isn't a pair. Even if the computer gets lucky, he will bodge it up. Sometimes if he gets a pair or higher, he will reroll one of the matching dice!!

In the end I just feel like I've wasted my time.

I just think of the poker in The Witcher as a official cheat.

Oarfish · Nov 8, 2007

Yeah, the poker AI in TW is so easily exploitable it isn't funny.

Hamster · Nov 8, 2007

Looks like i am the only one who didn't try to exploit poker game in The Witcher...

Deleted member 7219 · Nov 8, 2007

The graphics in the poker mini game was nice though. Havoked dice rolling around and the whole table scene was quite cute.

Chefe · Nov 8, 2007

Minigames have no place in anything, ever.

Nutcracker · Nov 8, 2007

This may not fit into the minigame category...but in Betrayal at Krondor they had locked chests which had a riddle on the top. You opened the chests by flicking the tumblers until you spelled the right answer to the riddle...some of them took a while and plenty of thought to get (the answer was a single word). They would be good for a bit of variation in the right setting, but on the other hand probably too difficult for modern day dumbfucks to grasp.

Jeff Graw · Nov 8, 2007

Hamster said:
Looks like i am the only one who didn't try to exploit poker game in The Witcher...

You exploit it just by playing it. Sometimes my opponent has a better hand then I do, and would actually win if he didn't roll any more dice. But instead he does roll and breaks up his combination at the same time. Monkeys could do a better job playing dice poker.

Zappa said:
Minigames have no place in anything, ever.

Space Rangers 2 says otherwise.

DraQ · Nov 8, 2007

Jeff Graw said:
Zappa said:

Minigames have no place in anything, ever.

Click to expand...

Space Rangers 2 says otherwise.

So does Anachronox.

Elwro · Nov 8, 2007

I fired up M&M VII a few times just to play Arcomage. It was really nice.

RK47 · Nov 8, 2007

SilasMalkav said:
The Poker minigame in The Witcher is heavily retarded. You're forced to play it for the poker quests and for money (I'm sure that armor wouldn't have cost 5k if gambling wasn't in the game) and it's stupidly easy. For example, the secret to winning is to simply reroll everything that isn't a pair. Even if the computer gets lucky, he will bodge it up. Sometimes if he gets a pair or higher, he will reroll one of the matching dice!!

In the end I just feel like I've wasted my time.

This isn't Diablo. The armor is there, but you never really need to purchase it. The developers simply succeeded in dangling the carrot for you to brave the stick. I never understood why people play games and complain they hate what they're doing in-game when it's perfectly optional. Were it up to me I'd just put a dice-roulette game in there to avoid this silly AI exploiting. Odds or Even. Exact sum. Etc.

But Arcomage...now THAT's mini game done right.

Chefe · Nov 8, 2007

hello world

Nael · Nov 8, 2007

Elwro said:
I fired up M&M VII a few times just to play Arcomage. It was really nice.

Do you ever play MArcomage, Elwro?

Sovy Kurosei · Nov 8, 2007

Minigames, like Pazaak in KOTOR and Triple Triad in FF8, should rely entirely on player skill instead of a hybrid of character and player skill.

Legitimate use of minigames in cRPGs

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